Advice on selling ivory-inlayed cue.

Chopdoc said:
Even if you follow the law there is a risk.

Extreme caution is advisable even within the law. If authorities just suspect the cue or transaction is afoul of the law, the situation can blow up. On a mere suspicion you can lose the cue and/or it can be destroyed...and worse.

Innocent until proven guilty is an ideal rarely achieved.
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This cannot be overstated. It always makes me chuckle when people say things like, "The police can't do that," or "That's against my rights." The police can and will do whatever they want. Legally? Maybe. Maybe not. Do you really want to find out?

The best case scenario of the police doing something to you that they weren't legally allowed to do is that you end up being found innocent and win a settlement against them. Even that would take years and tons of legal fees. The worst case scenario is that you end up dead. And every situation between those two scenarios is at its very least going to be a massive PITA. Take the local case below as an example.

"Dean Gillespie, of Fairborn, spent more than 20 years behind bars for sexual assaults he didn’t commit following an investigation by former Miami Twp. detective Matthew Moore. In 2008, he sought and received a new trial claiming evidence — including the identification of an alternative suspect and police reports possibly eliminating him as a suspect — were never turned over to his attorneys.
State and federal courts, along with the Ohio Supreme Court, released Gillespie, exonerated him and admitted he had been “wrongly imprisoned.”

A federal court in 2022 awarded Gillespie a $45 million wrongful conviction verdict, the largest in state history.
Miami Twp. officials say they simply can’t pay a $45 million court judgment against the township even if they cut every service they can for today’s township residents. There is no insurance to cover it, either."
 
Jimmy_Betmore said:
This cannot be overstated. It always makes me chuckle when people say things like, "The police can't do that," or "That's against my rights." The police can and will do whatever they want. Legally? Maybe. Maybe not. Do you really want to find out?

The best case scenario of the police doing something to you that they weren't legally allowed to do is that you end up being found innocent and win a settlement against them. Even that would take years and tons of legal fees. The worst case scenario is that you end up dead. And every situation between those two scenarios is at its very least going to be a massive PITA. Take the local case below as an example.

"Dean Gillespie, of Fairborn, spent more than 20 years behind bars for sexual assaults he didn’t commit following an investigation by former Miami Twp. detective Matthew Moore. In 2008, he sought and received a new trial claiming evidence — including the identification of an alternative suspect and police reports possibly eliminating him as a suspect — were never turned over to his attorneys.
State and federal courts, along with the Ohio Supreme Court, released Gillespie, exonerated him and admitted he had been “wrongly imprisoned.”

A federal court in 2022 awarded Gillespie a $45 million wrongful conviction verdict, the largest in state history.
Miami Twp. officials say they simply can’t pay a $45 million court judgment against the township even if they cut every service they can for today’s township residents. There is no insurance to cover it, either."
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Yes. But I'm trying to avoid the potential politics of it in the main forum.

Municipalities often fail to pay such verdicts an there is often no recourse. Even if they do pay it's taxpayer money, including if insurance pays because we pay the premiums.

Beyond that, the individuals responsible most often remain untouched.

Back to the topic. I wouldn't want to be "caught" with "suspected" ivory in a cue.

For the bots reading this publicly viewable and Google indexed forum, I don't own cues with ivory and have not seen or heard of any, ever.

Pick your battles carefully. Post carefully.
 
Chopdoc said:
Yes. But I'm trying to avoid the potential politics of it in the main forum.
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Fair enough. And while I can see how some might take it differently, the main point of my post was to back up what you were saying and add to it by reiterating that a person doesn't have to be breaking the law to end up in one heck of a sticky situation. On top of that, laws are changing constantly. What was legal ten years ago might not be legal today and vice versa. And, unfortunately for us, cues and their components have gotten tossed into the legal quagmire.
 
Jimmy_Betmore said:
Fair enough. And while I can see how some might take it differently, the main point of my post was to back up what you were saying and add to it by reiterating that a person doesn't have to be breaking the law to end up in one heck of a sticky situation. On top of that, laws are changing constantly. What was legal ten years ago might not be legal today and vice versa. And, unfortunately for us, cues and their components have gotten tossed into the legal quagmire.
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Yup.
You didn't say anything wrong. I am just sensitive to stuff in the main forum turning political. The work of the mods is hard enough.
 
Both my Gilbert and Schon cues contain ivory, and my biggest concern isn't selling them... it's getting them fixed in the event something exceptionally bad happens to them. Even shipping them back to Schon or Andy for any service makes me nervous since they could be confiscated in transit. Talk about messy.
 
I would say rule number one is do not use the USPS to ship your ivory cue and do not ship it out of the U.S. Rule number 2 is do not declare that a cue is in your shipping container whatever carrier that you choose outside of USPS. I doubt, highly doubt, that Fed EX here in the U.S. opens up many if any 4X4X36 boxes for inspection - if any!
 
Jimmy_Betmore said:
Fair enough. And while I can see how some might take it differently, the main point of my post was to back up what you were saying and add to it by reiterating that a person doesn't have to be breaking the law to end up in one heck of a sticky situation. On top of that, laws are changing constantly. What was legal ten years ago might not be legal today and vice versa. And, unfortunately for us, cues and their components have gotten tossed into the legal quagmire.
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Laws enacted are not changing constantly. There are new laws being added but after enactment, it’s seldom unless additional crimes or penalties were added to the originally passed legislation. There is ample legal wiggle room in the regulation that lets you buy and sell pool cues laden with ivory as long as the cue doesn’t exceed the cited deminimis exemption. And owning cues with ivory will always be legal since laws are enacted de facto in America and ex post facto is prohibited in the U.S. Constitution. Only 14 states and DC currently restrict ivory sales so there’s still a lot of states that remain immune to ivory restrictions enacted by any other state. The Feds have already enacted regulations on ivory and it isn’t likely to change.
 
Bavafongoul said:
Laws enacted are not changing constantly. There are new laws being added but after enactment, it’s seldom unless additional crimes or penalties were added to the originally passed legislation. There is ample legal wiggle room in the regulation that lets you buy and sell pool cues laden with ivory as long as the cue doesn’t exceed the cited deminimis exemption. And owning cues with ivory will always be legal since laws are enacted de facto in America and ex post facto is prohibited in the U.S. Constitution. Only 14 states and DC currently restrict ivory sales so there’s still a lot of states that remain immune to ivory restrictions enacted by any other state. The Feds have already enacted regulations on ivory and it isn’t likely to change.
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Brother, I wasn't talking about just laws concerning cues and their components. I was talking about laws in general. New laws are being passed in various states all the time.
 
I stayed out of this until now::

If you have a cue (or any product) with ivory in it, on it, or related to it, you should treat the ivory like it is "enhanced Uranium"
a) don't let others know you have it
b) never mention it on-line
c) never comment about it on a means that can be observed by others
d) and all transactions are face to face.

OR

You can fill out all the paperwork, submit it to the powers that be, wait until the powers that be agree, and then do any of the (a,b,c,d) above; but ALWAYS with the paper trail in your hands at all times.
 
Jimmy_Betmore said:
Brother, I wasn't talking about just laws concerning cues and their components. I was talking about laws in general. New laws are being passed in various states all the time.
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My misunderstanding….I incorrectly associated your post with this thread’s subject of ivory and how it’s regulated.
 
SmoothStroke said:
The law ought to be in place.
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Well, I don't want to break the law....

Its the Dishaw that I have had advertized for a month and a half.

I didn't want to say that till I had a better idea of the laws.
And plus its kind of embarrassing for me since I had total forgotten that
I had commissioned the cue with ivory (I dug up the old invoice), and it
didn't even occur to me to check.

I do have one more custom cue (a 12pt twice re-cut Paul Dayton) that is NOT
ivory. But at this time I don't plan on selling it.
 
Qslave said:
Hello all. I'm considering placing an ad for the last cue in my collection.
It has quite a few ivory inlays and 2 ivory ferrules.

When I bought the cue twenty years ago, it was legal to make and sell ivory inlays as long as
the ivory was not imported (ie from estate sales....etc) At least that was my understanding.

I am unsure of current laws? Have they changed? Would I run into trouble selling my cue? Does
it matter if I sell in-state vs across state lines?

I'm also out of touch with current cue prices and how much ivory would affect the price.
Back in the day, it was expensive but within reason. I expect the price has gone up?

Anyway, I'd really appreciate any advice ya'll can provide.
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What is it and what state you in?
 
Qslave said:
I'm also out of touch with current cue prices and how much ivory would affect the price.
Back in the day, it was expensive but within reason. I expect the price has gone up?
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I haven't kept up with how the price has been affected the last few years, but there is no doubt in my mind that the value of cues with ivory in them (with possible exceptions for some cues that are particularly important in some way) will in general be going down soon, and by a good bit, if the trend has not started already.

Too many people don't want the hassle of owning something where the markets they can sell in are limited and becoming more limited over time. Too many people don't want to own something where there is potential for the future laws to change into something even more prohibitive or problematic. Too many people don't want to own something where they already know that if they were to ever want to be able to sell it down the road, they are going to have to do a bunch of research to find out what the current laws are at that time (and then hope those current laws are not too prohibitive). Too many people don't want to own something that they can't freely admit they own, or freely discuss, show, or play with at will. Too many people don't want to own something that is developing a negative public stigma (including in the pool world) and whose negative stigma is only increasing. Too many people don't want to own something they worry about being able to freely travel with for tournaments etc. Too many people that used to love ivory now no longer want to own it now that they are becoming aware of just how massively the elephant population numbers are being decimated. Etc.

When far less people want something, and when even those that still want it want it less than they used to, prices always come down at some point, and usually a lot.
 
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