Affect of cue weight with a slip stroke?

[Chili Palmer]

I don’t have a slip stroke.

However thinking about it today, I read this thread earlier it would seem to me that a heavy cue lends itself to a slip stoke more than a lite cue.

Slip strokes really aren’t needed since Mud balls fall out of favor years ago then fast cloth.

That’s my conclusion

Fatboy

A heavy cue definitely works better.

My slip stroke is natural, I knew it was there years ago but just figured it's how I shot. I never really thought of the mud ball aspect, I did grow up shooting in bars in the late 80's and all through the 90's so I've played my fair share of pool with them, I'm guessing that's where it came from?

Either way, it's fun to let her rip some times

 

[Chili Palmer]

Helped with:
1. Nerves. To do it right, you have to relax, and you can feel it happening. No chance of tightness.
2. Long power shots. Had a slightly tucked in elbow and turned out wrist back then. This caused some, but not extremely much inaccuracy in power shots, as it introduced an arc in the stroke when the timing was off. The stroke slip took that right out, and the cue moved straight as long as I was setup correctly. I didn't know this at the time, I just observed that I made more long shots.
3. In matches it kind of lets you play your game, as it is such an instinctual process. It lets you forget about the mechanics. There is no checklist, you just feel the cue go back and forth and slipping. There is an instant feedback to let you know that you are doing things right.

Did not help with:
1. Working on the stroke. It's an instinctual thing, and can't easily be broken down and analyzed in parts. Once you do that, you sort of lose the ability to do it right. I had both slipstroke and stroke slip (more prominent). You can use only the stroke slip, but then you sort of lose the feel for the power. It's hard to explain.
2. Too much movement. Needed to pump the cue back and forth a lot during practise strokes and I found it difficult to pause. I know it can be done (see Cicero Murphy), but I just couldn't do it. I had to make sure my alignment was completely correct on the first pause and just trust that i didn't lose it during all that movement.

I stopped doing it for a reason.

Excellent post.

I never really thought about mine until the last few years and even then, I didn't really try breaking it down (with earnest) until the last few months but you're spot on with pretty much everything you posted.

It's natural, if you think about it you'll miss, you just have to let the cue tell you when it's ready

 

[soyale]

recently i started filming myself to try and find flaws in my stroke and one thing i noticed is that i'm barely holding on to my cue at all. sometimes it slides forward almost a foot in my hand. would anybody be interested in taking a look and telling me what the hell is going on?

 

[Bob Jewett]

Pardon my ignorance, but if the same total force is applied to the two cues, won’t their momentum be the same? Isn’t their momentum the force that’s applied to the CB?

What am I missing?

pj
chgo

You're missing the velocity of the cue stick that's achieved and how much of that is transferred to the cue ball. In the case of the very heavy cue stick the same momentum will result in a very low speed. Velocity = momentum / mass. Also, a very heavy stick transfers only a very small part of its momentum to the cue ball, which is clear because the stick will barely slow down. The cue ball can only move at about twice the speed of the stick and that's only when the stick is much, much heavier than the ball.

There is an additional detail that momentum is the time integral of force (or force times time for a constant force), so you also have to include the time you are pushing the cue forward, which can be a lot longer for a very heavy stick and the same stroke length.

 

[Biloxi Boy]

Doesn't weight affect and/or effect stability -- all things being equal, a heavier cue will tend to track truer?

 

[justnum]

This could be off topic: instead of having players stroke horizontally, if a cue stick was designed to control a vertical drop and translate into a horizontal stroke mass and speeds would be less important in the relationship.

I know what a pendulum is and that is not what I am thinking. Think automated battering ram.

Limiting the discussion to mass and velocity without consideration for the player is like creating a machine that works with 5% of the population. I can't say anything for certain but there is an experimental R and D company doing research into this.

As for the heavy vs light discussion. Player adjustments is the biggest factor in a successful stroke. Its the person not the machine in my interpretation. Machine advantages based on different options based on the same cue design is a limiting factor.

 

[Chili Palmer]

recently i started filming myself to try and find flaws in my stroke and one thing i noticed is that i'm barely holding on to my cue at all. sometimes it slides forward almost a foot in my hand. would anybody be interested in taking a look and telling me what the hell is going on?

Post a new thread with the video, I would be interested in seeing it.

 

[Biloxi Boy]

Any consideration being given to hand/eye coordination? To acuity of vision? Fine tuned appreciation of spatial relation (depth perception)? The worst stroke in the world can be compensated in the microseconds just before and at contact if the eyes, brain, and hands are running at 100%. OTOH, the absolute finest stroke in the world will take one nowhere without eyes and a brain to properly make the connections. Don't get me wrong, a consistent stroke is very, very important, but it is not the complete answer I think we tend to make it.

 

[Chili Palmer]

You're missing the velocity of the cue stick that's achieved and how much of that is transferred to the cue ball. In the case of the very heavy cue stick the same momentum will result in a very low speed. Velocity = momentum / mass. Also, a very heavy stick transfers only a very small part of its momentum to the cue ball, which is clear because the stick will barely slow down. The cue ball can only move at about twice the speed of the stick and that's only when the stick is much, much heavier than the ball.

There is an additional detail that momentum is the time integral of force (or force times time for a constant force), so you also have to include the time you are pushing the cue forward, which can be a lot longer for a very heavy stick and the same stroke length.

How much does tip softness/hardness affect that transfer? A softer tip is going to absorb more energy so the hit wouldn't be the same with a hard tip?

Just thinking out loud.

 

[Chili Palmer]

Any consideration being given to hand/eye coordination? To acuity of vision? Fine tuned appreciation of spatial relation (depth perception)? The worst stroke in the world can be compensated in the microseconds just before and at contact if the eyes, brain, and hands are running at 100%. OTOH, the absolute finest stroke in the world will take one nowhere without eyes and a brain to properly make the connections. Don't get me wrong, a consistent stroke is very, very important, but it is not the complete answer I think we tend to make it.

LOL, nope, not on my end, I only care about the weight differences here

And I do agree a consistent stroke is not the complete answer, we've all seen some crazy strokes some of the pro's have had and I've played some people with beautiful strokes that couldn't run 3 balls. I love working with people on the technical aspect of the game but as soon as they ask me about their stroke I point them to someone else, the stroke is not my forte.

However, I did notice that the majority of my misses yesterday were caused by not focusing on the OB at end, the rest of my misses were due to flinching when starting forward with the stroke (exactly what Straightpool_00 was saying - don't force it. Was just banging them so no pre-shot routine, etc.

Nothing special to say except - make sure you focus on the OB and stick with a pre-shot routine

 

[Patrick Johnson]

You're missing the velocity of the cue stick that's achieved and how much of that is transferred to the cue ball. In the case of the very heavy cue stick the same momentum will result in a very low speed. Velocity = momentum / mass. Also, a very heavy stick transfers only a very small part of its momentum to the cue ball, which is clear because the stick will barely slow down. The cue ball can only move at about twice the speed of the stick and that's only when the stick is much, much heavier than the ball.

There is an additional detail that momentum is the time integral of force (or force times time for a constant force), so you also have to include the time you are pushing the cue forward, which can be a lot longer for a very heavy stick and the same stroke length.

Guess I've been thinking about that too simplistically.

Thanks,

pj
chgo

 

[justnum]

LOL, nope, not on my end, I only care about the weight differences here

And I do agree a consistent stroke is not the complete answer, we've all seen some crazy strokes some of the pro's have had and I've played some people with beautiful strokes that couldn't run 3 balls. I love working with people on the technical aspect of the game but as soon as they ask me about their stroke I point them to someone else, the stroke is not my forte.

However, I did notice that the majority of my misses yesterday were caused by not focusing on the OB at end, the rest of my misses were due to flinching when starting forward with the stroke (exactly what Straightpool_00 was saying - don't force it. Was just banging them so no pre-shot routine, etc.

Nothing special to say except - make sure you focus on the OB and stick with a pre-shot routine

What exercise do you practice to test how straight a person is shooting?
Danny D would say some players have the straightest shot.

Thats why the film helps, some people have a bias.

 

[MitchAlsup]

With any two cues of different weights, if you apply the same amount of force you'll get the same force into the CB (the same amount of force moves cues of different weights at different speeds, satisfying the e=mc^2 formula). I don't know how to be sure in advance that you'll apply the same amount of force with both cues - just wanted to mention this physical fact in case it helps.

e = m×c^2 is the conversion of mass to energy and vice versa (unlikely to be what you intended:: nuclear reactions)
e = m×v^2 is the energy contained IN a mass (say a cue)

 

[MitchAlsup]

Any thoughts or personal experience?

The friction of the points your hand touches the cue mater a lot.

So a linen wrap would be a LOT different than a gloss finished (non) wrap.
Leather could be made tacky or smooth.

I suspect these have more to do than with MINOR changes in weight--but 15.4 to 20 oz is outside of my use of the word "minor".

 

[Fatboy]

Never mind

 

[Patrick Johnson]

e = m×c^2 is the conversion of mass to energy and vice versa (unlikely to be what you intended:: nuclear reactions)
e = m×v^2 is the energy contained IN a mass (say a cue)

I was actually thinking of f=1/2mv^2, but my fingers "corrected" me.

pj
chgo

 

[soyale]

Post a new thread with the video, I would be interested in seeing it.

i'll send you a private message, thanks!

 

[One Pocket John]

I've always had a natural slip stroke and over the last few months I've been having some fun with it but what I've noticed is, the weight of the cue affects play pretty drastically when using a slip stroke.

For those that don't know - a slip stroke is when the cue slips (i.e. slides) in your hand during the stroke so the weight of the cue is the only force being applied to the CB on impact.

Clearly, a change in weight would make a difference but it's amazing how much different I have to play when switching between a 20oz and a 15.4oz cue I bang around with once in a while. For most of my life I played with a 20oz Huebler but when switching to the lighter cues I constantly under hit stuff when using the slip stroke due to the loss of mass in the cue so I tend to start hitting the balls a little harder. I shoot with a couple of 18'sh ounce cues on a regular basis also and it's not nearly as noticeable, but change is still needed.

Any thoughts or personal experience?

What you are describing here (in BOLD) is a stroke slip not a slip stroke.
A stroke slip is very useful on some shots but should be used sparingly for most play.
You use it when you don't want to physically push the cue ball where you want it to go. You just let the cue push the cue ball where you want it to go. It's kinda like a finesse type of shot.
One thing that I need to point out (clarify) here is I do not physically push the cue thru the cue ball, I let the weight of the cue do the pushing.
Hope this helps.
John

 

[straightline]

What you are describing here (in BOLD) is a stroke slip not a slip stroke.
A stroke slip is very useful on some shots but should be used sparingly for most play.
You use it when you don't want to physically push the cue ball where you want it to go. You just let the cue push the cue ball where you want it to go. It's kinda like a finesse type of shot.
One thing that I need to point out (clarify) here is I do not physically push the cue thru the cue ball, I let the weight of the cue do the pushing.
Hope this helps.
John

Caution, nit attack of the week:
I prefer terms closer to release, toss, pitch, slider etc. Stroke slip sounds way to sophomoric and not immediately descriptive. Same with Non Compliant Break. WTF? Bad break is easier to say. Fail break, Short break, Dud etc...
There. I feel better...

 

[JazzyJeff87]

I’ve always just called it a slip stroke lol. I remember reading about what an actual slip stroke was and being confused when I tried to do it. I haven’t revisited that thought since. Maybe now

Letting the cue slip on the way out comes naturally on some shots. Hard or soft. There’s a hard shot at like 2:00 and a soft shot at 5:38 that you can really see.