Affect of cue weight with a slip stroke?

Chili Palmer

Chili Palmer

Give or take an 1"
Silver Member
I've always had a natural slip stroke and over the last few months I've been having some fun with it but what I've noticed is, the weight of the cue affects play pretty drastically when using a slip stroke.

For those that don't know - a slip stroke is when the cue slips (i.e. slides) in your hand during the stroke so the weight of the cue is the only force being applied to the CB on impact.

Clearly, a change in weight would make a difference but it's amazing how much different I have to play when switching between a 20oz and a 15.4oz cue I bang around with once in a while. For most of my life I played with a 20oz Huebler but when switching to the lighter cues I constantly under hit stuff when using the slip stroke due to the loss of mass in the cue so I tend to start hitting the balls a little harder. I shoot with a couple of 18'sh ounce cues on a regular basis also and it's not nearly as noticeable, but change is still needed.

Any thoughts or personal experience?
 
Chili Palmer said:
I've always had a natural slip stroke and over the last few months I've been having some fun with it but what I've noticed is, the weight of the cue affects play pretty drastically when using a slip stroke.

For those that don't know - a slip stroke is when the cue slips (i.e. slides) in your hand during the stroke so the weight of the cue is the only force being applied to the CB on impact.

Clearly, a change in weight would make a difference but it's amazing how much different I have to play when switching between a 20oz and a 15.4oz cue I bang around with once in a while. For most of my life I played with a 20oz Huebler but when switching to the lighter cues I constantly under hit stuff when using the slip stroke due to the loss of mass in the cue so I tend to start hitting the balls a little harder. I shoot with a couple of 18'sh ounce cues on a regular basis also and it's not nearly as noticeable, but change is still needed.

Any thoughts or personal experience?
Click to expand...
With any two cues of different weights, if you apply the same amount of force you'll get the same force into the CB (the same amount of force moves cues of different weights at different speeds, satisfying the e=mc^2 formula). I don't know how to be sure in advance that you'll apply the same amount of force with both cues - just wanted to mention this physical fact in case it helps.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
With any two cues of different weights, if you apply the same amount of force you'll get the same force into the CB (the same amount of force moves cues of different weights at different speeds, satisfying the e=mc^2 formula). I don't know how to be sure in advance that you'll apply the same amount of force with both cues - just wanted to mention this physical fact in case it helps.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Funny, I never thought of that equation when thinking about it but it's very evident when switching from a 20oz to a 15.4oz cue.

I've been playing for decades and am pretty good at speed control and when I stroke the two cues for the same shot the cue ball lacks some serious energy with the lighter cue and I usually end up short.

I guess after almost 40 years with the same cue I was used to it. I can do ok with the lighter cue but it's definitely harder to be very consistent with the slip stroke.
 
15.4 Chili?…maybe good for straight rail when you got them gathered.
My second cue was a 20.25 Gus…the slip stroke felt good with it…but only on special shots.
I played most of my one pocket with a 18.5 Joss…hardly ever slipped with it.
 
nick serdula said:
No. On a big stroke maybe. You can't throw your stick if you are on the back of the pole.
Click to expand...
I tried learning the toss thing which I also refer to as a slip stroke because bfd. :D What I settled for is pivoting on the back two fingers and this will allow holding the cue at the butt.
 
I don't think it will be much help, but I experimented a bit with a slip stroke some years ago, but more of a stroke slip, really. The only cue I could ever do it well with was my playing cue at the time, a 19.5 ounce Predator with super slick linnen. I've tried it since with other cues, but I can't really make it work. That Predator had the slickest linnen wrap I've ever tried and the balance was perfect. To me the balance and the slickness seem the most important. If the balance is even slightly off, I had big problems with it.
 
pt109 said:
15.4 Chili?…maybe good for straight rail when you got them gathered.
My second cue was a 20.25 Gus…the slip stroke felt good with it…but only on special shots.
I played most of my one pocket with a 18.5 Joss…hardly ever slipped with it.
Click to expand...

LOL, best bar cue ever ;) I picked it up one day at my local hangout and immediately liked it so I traded some tip work for it and took it home :)

My normal playing cues are either in the 18+/- range or 20'sh range.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
With any two cues of different weights, if you apply the same amount of force you'll get the same force into the CB...
Click to expand...
This is not true. If you take the extreme example of a cue that weighs 1000 pounds and you use the same 10 pounds of force or so over the same 12 inches of stroke, the cue will barely be moving when it hits the cue ball. Similarly, if the cue is only a tenth of an ounce, it will be moving pretty fast if you can apply 10 pounds of force, but it will not get much speed into the cue ball. Also, because whatever force your arm generates also has to accelerate the mass of your hand and your forearm, you won't see the benefit of a very light cue because your hand will slow it down.

But since the normal range of cue weights is only about +-10%, the effect of cue weight over that small range on ball speed is fairly small.
 
Straightpool_99 said:
I don't think it will be much help, but I experimented a bit with a slip stroke some years ago, but more of a stroke slip, really. The only cue I could ever do it well with was my playing cue at the time, a 19.5 ounce Predator with super slick linen. I've tried it since with other cues, but I can't really make it work. That Predator had the slickest linen wrap I've ever tried and the balance was perfect. To me the balance and the slickness seem the most important. If the balance is even slightly off, I had big problems with it.
Click to expand...
Did you find that the stroke slip helped your game in any way?
 
Straightpool_99 said:
I don't think it will be much help, but I experimented a bit with a slip stroke some years ago, but more of a stroke slip, really. The only cue I could ever do it well with was my playing cue at the time, a 19.5 ounce Predator with super slick linnen. I've tried it since with other cues, but I can't really make it work. That Predator had the slickest linnen wrap I've ever tried and the balance was perfect. To me the balance and the slickness seem the most important. If the balance is even slightly off, I had big problems with it.
Click to expand...

Agreed on the balance. I have two 20oz Huebler's I play with but the balance point on the newer one is about 2" forward and it throws me all out of whack when trying to "stroke-slip".

Funny story - came home from work and was having some fun banging balls and I banked the 3B straight back to the bottom left corner. CB was on other end of table so I let her fly and the cue slid out of my hand and onto the table (maybe once a year that happens). 3B went dead center into the pocket, the CB drew back about 3/4 of the table right next to the cue laying on the table. I walked away after that, lol.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
With any two cues of different weights, if you apply the same amount of force you'll get the same force into the CB
Click to expand...
Bob Jewett said:
This is not true. If you take the extreme example of a cue that weighs 1000 pounds and you use the same 10 pounds of force or so over the same 12 inches of stroke, the cue will barely be moving when it hits the cue ball.
Click to expand...
Pardon my ignorance, but if the same total force is applied to the two cues, won’t their momentum be the same? Isn’t their momentum the force that’s applied to the CB?

What am I missing?

pj
chgo
 
pt109 said:
15.4 Chili?…maybe good for straight rail when you got them gathered.
My second cue was a 20.25 Gus…the slip stroke felt good with it…but only on special shots.
I played most of my one pocket with a 18.5 Joss…hardly ever slipped with it.
Click to expand...
I don’t have a slip stroke.

However thinking about it today, I read this thread earlier it would seem to me that a heavy cue lends itself to a slip stoke more than a lite cue.

Slip strokes really aren’t needed since Mud balls fall out of favor years ago then fast cloth.

That’s my conclusion

Fatboy
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Pardon my ignorance, but if the same total force is applied to the two cues, won’t their momentum be the same? Isn’t their momentum the force that’s applied to the CB?

What am I missing?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
Patrick, I think you're on the right track with your momentum balance idea. By the way, that's the famous Newton's 2nd law: Total external force = final momentum - initial momentum, or F = ma....not E=mc^2. I think the missing ingredient here is that the collision is never perfectly elastic, so there will be some energy lost during the collision. I would guess that the coefficient of restitution depends on the speed of the cue in some way that is not perfectly correlated to the momentum. I think that's probably because the cue tip is not a perfect spring. Sorry for the short and cryptic reply...maybe to be continued.
 
I think players are more attuned to the force going into the cueball and less so the handle of the stick. It stands to reason therefore, that the more mass in the cue, the more run through, the higher the impact force. That's all I can figure about hitting a ball so I roll it off there and consider other things like destinations and vectors.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Did you find that the stroke slip helped your game in any way?
Click to expand...
Helped with:
1. Nerves. To do it right, you have to relax, and you can feel it happening. No chance of tightness.
2. Long power shots. Had a slightly tucked in elbow and turned out wrist back then. This caused some, but not extremely much inaccuracy in power shots, as it introduced an arc in the stroke when the timing was off. The stroke slip took that right out, and the cue moved straight as long as I was setup correctly. I didn't know this at the time, I just observed that I made more long shots.
3. In matches it kind of lets you play your game, as it is such an instinctual process. It lets you forget about the mechanics. There is no checklist, you just feel the cue go back and forth and slipping. There is an instant feedback to let you know that you are doing things right.

Did not help with:
1. Working on the stroke. It's an instinctual thing, and can't easily be broken down and analyzed in parts. Once you do that, you sort of lose the ability to do it right. I had both slipstroke and stroke slip (more prominent). You can use only the stroke slip, but then you sort of lose the feel for the power. It's hard to explain.
2. Too much movement. Needed to pump the cue back and forth a lot during practise strokes and I found it difficult to pause. I know it can be done (see Cicero Murphy), but I just couldn't do it. I had to make sure my alignment was completely correct on the first pause and just trust that i didn't lose it during all that movement.

I stopped doing it for a reason.
 
Helps to play over 21 ounces. Champions have told me I shoot just like Buddy. I replied I don't know. I never seen him shoot. I had a friend that busted Buddy. His stroke was no stroke. He had a 3 inch bridge. He played over 21 ounces, And his Cue didn't go back and forth. It just went forward. Crookedest stroke I ever saw. Laser beam. Human laser beam. You would swear watching him he couldn't play. Clumsy, hobbled. Watching the table you realized he played perfect pool. As jerky as his stroke was it was the same every time. Rock solid. They figured it out when they were busted. Steve Mez pawned his Balabushka to him for bus money home!
RIP Dick Hunzicker
 
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