After all these years,,,,,,,,

Renegade_56

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was bored at work tonight and was casually browsing over a copy of the BCA 14.1 rules, when something caught my eye,,,,,,,,

6.12 SUCCESSIVE FOUL PENALTIES
When a player commits a foul, penalization is one point (or more as appropriate) and a notation is made and posted by the scorer that the player is “on a foul.” The player remains “on a foul” until the next shot attempt, at which time the foul may be removed by successfully pocketing a called ball, or completing a legal safety. If failing to meet these requirements on the next turn at the table, the player is penalized one point. The notation is changed to “on two fouls.” If he fails to meet the requirements of successfully pocketing a called ball or completing a legal safety on the third consecutive turn at the table, penalization is one point and an additional penalty of 15 points is assessed (a total of 18 points for three consecutive fouls equals -18 points). The commission of a third successive foul automatically clears the offender’s record of fouls. “The incoming player has the choice of 1). accepting the balls in position, or 2). having all 15 balls re-racked and requiring the offending player to shoot under the requirements of the opening break. Rules for the opening break apply.” It should be emphasized that successive fouls must be committed in successive turns (or playing attempts), not merely in successive innings. For example, if a player ends inning six with a foul, steps to the table for inning seven and fouls (he is “on two fouls”), and then starts inning eight with a legally pocketed ball before scratching on his second shot attempt of the inning, he has not committed three successive fouls, even though there were fouls in three successive innings. As soon as he legally pocketed the ball to start inning eight, he cleared the two fouls. He is, of course, “on one foul” when he plays the first stroke attempt of inning nine.

Now everyone I've ever played with plays that you are off of the foul, or consecutive foul, if you 1)make a legally called shot, 2)make a legal safety, or 3)make a legal hit, (ball and a rail), but miss the ball. The way I read the rule above, option 3 is not considered, so you either have to make (pocket) a called shot or call and execute a safety legally.

You guys play this way?
 
No, because a missed shot is a legal safety, as long as it is an otherwise legal shot (i.e. a ball goes to a rail after the CB makes contact with an OB). I have to say though that the technical definition of a safety includes that the shot be called a safety by the shooter prior to executing the shot. But even so, according to the rules a missed shot (that is a legal shot) is not another foul.
 
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I was bored at work tonight and was casually browsing over a copy of the BCA 14.1 rules, when something caught my eye,,,,,,,,

6.12 SUCCESSIVE FOUL PENALTIES
When a player commits a foul, penalization is one point (or more as appropriate) and a notation is made and posted by the scorer that the player is “on a foul.” The player remains “on a foul” until the next shot attempt, at which time the foul may be removed by successfully pocketing a called ball, or completing a legal safety. If failing to meet these requirements on the next turn at the table, the player is penalized one point. The notation is changed to “on two fouls.” If he fails to meet the requirements of successfully pocketing a called ball or completing a legal safety on the third consecutive turn at the table, penalization is one point and an additional penalty of 15 points is assessed (a total of 18 points for three consecutive fouls equals -18 points). The commission of a third successive foul automatically clears the offender’s record of fouls. “The incoming player has the choice of 1). accepting the balls in position, or 2). having all 15 balls re-racked and requiring the offending player to shoot under the requirements of the opening break. Rules for the opening break apply.” It should be emphasized that successive fouls must be committed in successive turns (or playing attempts), not merely in successive innings. For example, if a player ends inning six with a foul, steps to the table for inning seven and fouls (he is “on two fouls”), and then starts inning eight with a legally pocketed ball before scratching on his second shot attempt of the inning, he has not committed three successive fouls, even though there were fouls in three successive innings. As soon as he legally pocketed the ball to start inning eight, he cleared the two fouls. He is, of course, “on one foul” when he plays the first stroke attempt of inning nine.

Now everyone I've ever played with plays that you are off of the foul, or consecutive foul, if you 1)make a legally called shot, 2)make a legal safety, or 3)make a legal hit, (ball and a rail), but miss the ball. The way I read the rule above, option 3 is not considered, so you either have to make (pocket) a called shot or call and execute a safety legally.

You guys play this way?

2 contains 3 - A safety is a safety whether it is called or not. One reason
for calling safeties - in 14.1 you can call 'safe', legally pocket a ball, and
it is your opponents turn. In that situation, calling the safety makes
a difference - if no ball is pocketed, it doesn't really matter.

Also, if you are playing 14.1 in a "formal" setting<tourney, league, etc>
all shots are supposed to be called - avoids confusion.

Dale
 
2 contains 3 - A safety is a safety whether it is called or not. One reason
for calling safeties - in 14.1 you can call 'safe', legally pocket a ball, and
it is your opponents turn. In that situation, calling the safety makes
a difference - if no ball is pocketed, it doesn't really matter.

Also, if you are playing 14.1 in a "formal" setting<tourney, league, etc>
all shots are supposed to be called - avoids confusion.

Dale

I'm not sure what you mean by 2 contains 3. But according to the WPA rules a safety is not a safety unless it is called. From rule 8.17 in the definitions:

8.17 Safety Shot
A shot is said to be a safety shot if the game in play is a call shot game and the shooter declared the shot to the referee or his opponent to be a “safety” before the shot. Play passes to the other player at the end of a safety shot.


None the less, a missed shot does NOT count as a foul in straight pool, and I did find where it is addressed:

4.11 Serious Fouls
For Rule 6.14 Three Consecutive Fouls, only standard fouls are counted, so a breaking foul does not count as one of the three fouls. A point is subtracted for the third foul as usual, and then the additional fifteen-point penalty is subtracted and the offending player’s consecutive foul count is reset to zero. All fifteen balls are re-racked and the offending player is required to shoot under the requirements of the opening break. For 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct, the referee will choose a penalty depending on the nature of the offense.

So, only standard fouls count. According to the rules the following are the standard fouls:

The following are standard fouls at 14.1:

6.1 Cue Ball Scratch or off the Table The cue ball is in hand behind the head string (see 1.5 Cue Ball in Hand).
6.3 No Rail after Contact
6.4 No Foot on Floor
6.5 Ball Driven off the Table (All object balls driven off the table are respotted.)
6.6 Touched Ball
6.7 Double Hit / Frozen Balls
6.8 Push Shot
6.9 Balls Still Moving
6.10 Bad Cue Ball Placement
6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String For a foul under the second paragraph of 6.11, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string for the incoming player.
6.12 Cue Stick on the Table
6.13 Playing out of Turn
6.15 Slow Play

Note that the above standard rules does NOT include needing to make a shot or play a legal safety (whether or not it needs to be called).
 
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I was bored at work tonight and was casually browsing over a copy of the BCA 14.1 rules, when something caught my eye,,,,,,,,

6.12 SUCCESSIVE FOUL PENALTIES
When a player commits a foul, penalization is one point (or more as appropriate) and a notation is made and posted by the scorer that the player is “on a foul.” The player remains “on a foul” until the next shot attempt, at which time the foul may be removed by successfully pocketing a called ball, or completing a legal safety. If failing to meet these requirements on the next turn at the table, the player is penalized one point. The notation is changed to “on two fouls.” If he fails to meet the requirements of successfully pocketing a called ball or completing a legal safety on the third consecutive turn at the table, penalization is one point and an additional penalty of 15 points is assessed (a total of 18 points for three consecutive fouls equals -18 points). The commission of a third successive foul automatically clears the offender’s record of fouls. “The incoming player has the choice of 1). accepting the balls in position, or 2). having all 15 balls re-racked and requiring the offending player to shoot under the requirements of the opening break. Rules for the opening break apply.” It should be emphasized that successive fouls must be committed in successive turns (or playing attempts), not merely in successive innings. For example, if a player ends inning six with a foul, steps to the table for inning seven and fouls (he is “on two fouls”), and then starts inning eight with a legally pocketed ball before scratching on his second shot attempt of the inning, he has not committed three successive fouls, even though there were fouls in three successive innings. As soon as he legally pocketed the ball to start inning eight, he cleared the two fouls. He is, of course, “on one foul” when he plays the first stroke attempt of inning nine.

Now everyone I've ever played with plays that you are off of the foul, or consecutive foul, if you 1)make a legally called shot, 2)make a legal safety, or 3)make a legal hit, (ball and a rail), but miss the ball. The way I read the rule above, option 3 is not considered, so you either have to make (pocket) a called shot or call and execute a safety legally.

You guys play this way?


By the way, you are looking at an outdated rule. There is no longer a choice for the incoming player to take the table "as is" after the third consecutive foul. This changed in 2008.

"4.11 Serious Fouls
For Rule 6.14 Three Consecutive Fouls, only standard fouls are counted, so a breaking foul does not count as one of the three fouls. A point is subtracted for the third foul as usual, and then the additional fifteen-point penalty is subtracted and the offending player’s consecutive foul count is reset to zero. All fifteen balls are re-racked and the offending player is required to shoot under the requirements of the opening break."
 
I'm not sure what you mean by 2 contains 3. But according to the WPA rules a safety is not a safety unless it is called. From rule 8.17 in the definitions:




None the less, a missed shot does NOT count as a foul in straight pool, and I did find where it is addressed:



So, only standard fouls count. According to the rules the following are the standard fouls:

The following are standard fouls at 14.1:

6.1 Cue Ball Scratch or off the Table The cue ball is in hand behind the head string (see 1.5 Cue Ball in Hand).
6.3 No Rail after Contact
6.4 No Foot on Floor
6.5 Ball Driven off the Table (All object balls driven off the table are respotted.)
6.6 Touched Ball
6.7 Double Hit / Frozen Balls
6.8 Push Shot
6.9 Balls Still Moving
6.10 Bad Cue Ball Placement
6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String For a foul under the second paragraph of 6.11, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string for the incoming player.
6.12 Cue Stick on the Table
6.13 Playing out of Turn
6.15 Slow Play

Note that the above standard rules does NOT include needing to make a shot or play a legal safety (whether or not it needs to be called).

Your examples 2 and 3 are the same thing - a 'legal hit' is effectively
the same thing as a 'called safety'.

If I announce "safety", bump a ball to a rail, it is your shot from where
the balls lie. If I say nothing, do the same thing, it is still your shot.

Dale
 
By the way, you are looking at an outdated rule. There is no longer a choice for the incoming player to take the table "as is" after the third consecutive foul. This changed in 2008.

"4.11 Serious Fouls
For Rule 6.14 Three Consecutive Fouls, only standard fouls are counted, so a breaking foul does not count as one of the three fouls. A point is subtracted for the third foul as usual, and then the additional fifteen-point penalty is subtracted and the offending player’s consecutive foul count is reset to zero. All fifteen balls are re-racked and the offending player is required to shoot under the requirements of the opening break."

Indeed, the rule is an outdated one. Even though a legal shot that is a miss was never meant to be another foul, it really doesn't matter since they changed the rules.

The rule quoted by the OP (rule 6.12 successive foul penalties) is now:

6.12 Cue Stick on the Table
If the shooter uses his cue stick in order to align a shot by placing it on the table without having a hand on the stick, it is a foul.

The successive foul rule is now rule 6.14, and there is now no mention of getting off of fouls:

6.14 Three Consecutive Fouls
If a player fouls three times without making an intervening legal shot, it is a serious foul. In games scored by the rack, such as nine ball, the fouls must be in a single rack. Some games such as eight ball do not include this rule.
The referee must warn a shooter who is on two fouls when he comes to the table that he is on two fouls. Otherwise a possible third foul will be considered to be only the second.
 
I agree it should not be a foul if you miss the ball, but then hit a rail, without calling a safety. That's how I've always played.

When I originated this post, I opened the rules on the BCA website, and copy and pasted the rule from there into my post,,,,,,,,so I think they should update,,,,yeah???????
 
Thanks Dennis, that helps a lot, I did not understand that rule until now.

Best.
 
When I originated this post, I opened the rules on the BCA website, and copy and pasted the rule from there into my post,,,,,,,,so I think they should update,,,,yeah???????
They did, but they didn't actually remove the old stuff. Here's the new URL for the rules at the BCA site:
http://home.bca-pool.com/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=54

Personally, I find it easier to look at the WPBA's site for the rules (BCA's are now presumably the same):
http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_tournament
 
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