Aim Question....NOT AIM SYSTEMS. :)

[RRfireblade]

I honestly take no side either way on the staggering amount of aim system controversy that has ravaged this forum for such a long time now. I'm firmly in the 'what ever works' camp.

The obsession with the topic however is pretty interesting, I pop in and out of the forum from time to time and it seems there is always a page full of threads on the subject. Now I find myself curious about something....

Systems aside, I mostly would just like to know what is it about lining up a shot that is the problem for most people? We all know and I believe all agree that system or not, stroke and execution stand alone from the 'aiming' process. I also believe and 'think' its agreed upon that the various systems out there do not account for spin/throw/english/whatever etc. (If I'm wrong about that then someone can correct it)

So the question I have and have not seen answered so far...

What specific piece of information about the shot is needing to be provided by the "aim system"? Is it more than just finding the contact point on the OB ? I guess this is a question to the system people but I'd really like to hear from anyone with aim problems what they feel is the thing that gives them the most problems. Basically why do you feel you miss and is that correction provided by using one of the available 'Aim systems' ?

(I'd just like to add that I assume that when the term "aim system" is used , it referes to an established method for aiming that is packaged, sold and/or taught as a complete developed (ideally) unique system. It's not meant to include the 'typical' steps anyone would have to go thru to aim a shot that some would say the parts of still compose a 'system' for the sake of semantics.)

Maybe understanding the the individual challenges some people have might help understand the need such systems are expected to fulfill.

TIA

 

[The Chinchilla]

I honestly take no side either way on the staggering amount of aim system controversy that has ravaged this forum for such a long time now. I'm firmly in the 'what ever works' camp.

The obsession with the topic however is pretty interesting, I pop in and out of the forum from time to time and it seems there is always a page full of threads on the subject. Now I find myself curious about something....

Systems aside, I mostly would just like to know what is it about lining up a shot that is the problem for most people? We all know and I believe all agree that system or not, stroke and execution stand alone from the 'aiming' process. I also believe and 'think' its agreed upon that the various systems out there do not account for spin/throw/english/whatever etc. (If I'm wrong about that then someone can correct it)

So the question I have and have not seen answered so far...

What specific piece of information about the shot is needing to be provided by the "aim system"? Is it more than just finding the contact point on the OB ? I guess this is a question to the system people but I'd really like to hear from anyone with aim problems what they feel is the thing that gives them the most problems. Basically why do you feel you miss and is that correction provided by using one of the available 'Aim systems' ?

(I'd just like to add that I assume that when the term "aim system" is used , it referes to an established method for aiming that is packaged, sold and/or taught as a complete developed (ideally) unique system. It's not meant to include the 'typical' steps anyone would have to go thru to aim a shot that some would say the parts of still compose a 'system' for the sake of semantics.)

Maybe understanding the the individual challenges some people have might help understand the need such systems are expected to fulfill.

TIA

Ill take a shot at answering one of your question. Let's just say for now that there is an aiming system that "works" (whatever that means i hardly know). So, you are using the system and firing in this one particular tough shot all day.

Ok, now you go to another pool hall, balls now a little dirtier and stickier. Aim the same shot the same way, and bam you undercut it. Variation is the problem. I don't think the pros wold miss cutting balls down the rail very much if every ball on earth cut exactly the same. The rail is right there to guide them with a point of reference, they have shot it a million times, shooting straight isn't the problem in their case.... again, the problem is the variation between how much friction will throw the ball off the true cut line.

The answer is you gotta get used to the balls, and used to the conditions, and no system is really going to help you with that. The correction you ask for should come from your hours of practice and experience, which should include playing on different equipment as much as you can.

That's my answer. No so magical or anything, but there it is.... it's kinda like life though, isn't it? No magic bullets.

 

[Cameron Smith]

Essentially, everything about lining up takes place behind our field of vision. When we are down on the shot, we can see vaguely where the cue is pointing, but we can't see if our hips are in the way or exactly the line our cue is actually on because everything except for bridge hand is outside our line of sight. Unless of course we constantly look back but even then it's tough to see and its not reasonable to be double checking during matches.

 

[The Renfro]

The human eye is a wonderful thing... The problem for some of us is that we have 2 of them and for some reason or other they do not work together.. This causes perception and depth issues.... This is one reason I chase the pot of gold at the end of the system rainbow.

Everyone doesn't see the same thing... While most can pick out a spot on the ball don't assume everyone can.... Based on this fact alone every time someone jumps up and bashes any aiming system I want to rail against the utter lack of common sense... For some people systems make up for visual deficits... If you aren't one of those people then sit there be happy and shut up.

I personally can aim at the edge or the center of the ball accurately... I use a pivot system on most shots similar to CTE that I evolved into... It gives me a starting sight picture I understand and based on the pivot point and my base cue position goes a long way towards compensating for english.........

That is mainly the whole point of the system... Creating a visual picture that feeds valid info into our gray matter so we can make whatever adjustments required to put the ball into the hole.........

 

[RRfireblade]

The human eye is a wonderful thing... The problem for some of us is that we have 2 of them and for some reason or other they do not work together.. This causes perception and depth issues.... This is one reason I chase the pot of gold at the end of the system rainbow.

Everyone doesn't see the same thing... While most can pick out a spot on the ball don't assume everyone can.... Based on this fact alone every time someone jumps up and bashes any aiming system I want to rail against the utter lack of common sense... For some people systems make up for visual deficits... If you aren't one of those people then sit there be happy and shut up.

I personally can aim at the edge or the center of the ball accurately... I use a pivot system on most shots similar to CTE that I evolved into... It gives me a starting sight picture I understand and based on the pivot point and my base cue position goes a long way towards compensating for english.........

That is mainly the whole point of the system... Creating a visual picture that feeds valid info into our gray matter so we can make whatever adjustments required to put the ball into the hole.........

So you feel like the system corrects for alignment and vision errors?

That's interesting.

 

[JB Cases]

I honestly take no side either way on the staggering amount of aim system controversy that has ravaged this forum for such a long time now. I'm firmly in the 'what ever works' camp.

The obsession with the topic however is pretty interesting, I pop in and out of the forum from time to time and it seems there is always a page full of threads on the subject. Now I find myself curious about something....

Systems aside, I mostly would just like to know what is it about lining up a shot that is the problem for most people? We all know and I believe all agree that system or not, stroke and execution stand alone from the 'aiming' process. I also believe and 'think' its agreed upon that the various systems out there do not account for spin/throw/english/whatever etc. (If I'm wrong about that then someone can correct it)

So the question I have and have not seen answered so far...

What specific piece of information about the shot is needing to be provided by the "aim system"? Is it more than just finding the contact point on the OB ? I guess this is a question to the system people but I'd really like to hear from anyone with aim problems what they feel is the thing that gives them the most problems. Basically why do you feel you miss and is that correction provided by using one of the available 'Aim systems' ?

(I'd just like to add that I assume that when the term "aim system" is used , it referes to an established method for aiming that is packaged, sold and/or taught as a complete developed (ideally) unique system. It's not meant to include the 'typical' steps anyone would have to go thru to aim a shot that some would say the parts of still compose a 'system' for the sake of semantics.)

Maybe understanding the the individual challenges some people have might help understand the need such systems are expected to fulfill.

TIA

The specific piece of information that aiming provides is a direct line to the target. Somehow the player has to lay the stick down so that the cue ball will contact the object ball in the right spot and send it to the pocket.

Every day at lunch I sit here and watch my staff play. They have seen me make ghost ball templates, have seen me mark up the table with aiming lines, have seen me make all sorts of videos. They can all hit the cue ball in a straight line, I taught them that. They all have decent strokes, I taught them that. And they all know "aiming" as prescribed by the ghost ball, I taught them that.

But when they play they often line up so far off the ball that the will miss the whole ball. They miss easy shots which are practically hanging in the pocket. Then they will some hard long shot with no position of course.

So I don't know.

Being able to shoot in a straight line - that is being able to make the cue ball go straight down a line is obviously a major skill that must be mastered before aiming otherwise the results will be inconsistent.

But when that skill is mastered and then why can't the same person accurately get down and send the cue ball to a target consistently?

Does anyone remember the electronic aim trainer that beeped if you hit dead center? It had one sound if you hit dead center and another if you were slightly off and no sound if you were too far off? It had a pro mode and a amateur mode where the amateur mode was more forgiving?

Dennis Taylor marketed another one that was like a putting practice device. It had a ball nestled against a retainer and you could put the whole thing in line with the pocket. Then you could shoot the ball and if you hit "center pocket" it would beep and the ball would roll back into place. I really loved playing with that thing and I wish I had learned some of these aiming systems while I had access to it.

I guess it's really just practice mostly. Mizerak said that he didn't shoot a shot 20 times to get it right, he shot it 200 times. My staff plays only at lunch, they don't practice. Even though I have shown them what to do they don't practice those techniques so they have little chance to make them second nature.

So my current theory is that having a solid method combined with a shit load of repetition is what gives someone a good grip on getting to the shot line.

For me I always had trouble with certain shots. Mostly backward cuts and thin cuts up the rail. My percentages were horrible to the point that I would not take those shots in a money game. It was like I was spotting people every game because I would try to duck instead of going for the out. Meanwhile they would shoot those shots in and I'd be pissed off thinking I SHOULD be able to make those shots with no problem. So for me the missing ingredient was confidence. I was never confident that I was on the right line and so I would dog the shots trying to steer them in, and this affected my position play as well because I could not focus on getting position while worried about making the shot and vice versa.

Upon learning how to aim using an alternative method I immediately improved my shotmaking. But it came at the expense of being comfortable at first. 20 years of playing one way where I would jump on a shot line and feel good (as good as I could) about it resulted in me being very very doubtful at first that I was on the right line when using another method.

But gradually I practiced enough that it became fairly natural. Sometimes I still get twinges of feeling "wrong" when I get down on the shot that go back to the old way. But for the most part I trust the line and it works. And to me that trust, when it's complete, is the essence of aiming.

No matter how you get there if you are able to make most shots you shoot then you trust whatever you are doing. And confidence allows you a better shot at getting into dead punch.

Given that we are blubbery balls of water in constant motion aiming is for us actually a difficult task. Some people are very good at being still and locking onto a line while others have a very hard time with it. Without any formal practice some people's brains are just wired better for that sort of activity. That doesn't mean that the person who isn't can't be trained to do it just as well or better or that the person who is better "naturally" won't deteriorate without training.

So aiming is "simply" the act of being able to identify and get on and stay on a line. Simple criteria, hard to do for some people.

 

[quadrary]

I would say that most of the shots i miss are due to either cheating a pocket to much or being over confident i can hit that 2 rail kick perfectly. Which means failing to recognize my limits and play safe when i should.

 

[dizAndyVan]

The mechanics behind shooting a shot are are equally as important as aiming the shot, but practicing proper mechanics requires less cognition then aiming. I don't believe that it's too difficult to find repeatability in your stroke after you've worked on it and there's less variation in stroking, i mean practically, you stroke the ball in a similar fashion every time. However every shot is a little different. They physics behind pocketing balls is pretty simple and finding the contact point is simple, however the aiming point and therefore the aiming line is different and different aiming systems help reveal the aiming line better for some and worse for others. Some people don't have the spatial skill or struggle with eye dominance so that aiming for an invisible point in space makes it difficult to find the aiming point. Others can easily see it, that's why ghost ball works for some people and doesn't work for other people. Aiming systems also increase the repeatability of making shots. If you can prepare for a shot in a similar manner every time, it makes the shot more approachable and finding consistency helps confidence and repeatability can help your game.

my 2 pennies

 

[JB Cases]

Ill take a shot at answering one of your question. Let's just say for now that there is an aiming system that "works" (whatever that means i hardly know). So, you are using the system and firing in this one particular tough shot all day.

Ok, now you go to another pool hall, balls now a little dirtier and stickier. Aim the same shot the same way, and bam you undercut it. Variation is the problem. I don't think the pros wold miss cutting balls down the rail very much if every ball on earth cut exactly the same. The rail is right there to guide them with a point of reference, they have shot it a million times, shooting straight isn't the problem in their case.... again, the problem is the variation between how much friction will throw the ball off the true cut line.

The answer is you gotta get used to the balls, and used to the conditions, and no system is really going to help you with that. The correction you ask for should come from your hours of practice and experience, which should include playing on different equipment as much as you can.

That's my answer. No so magical or anything, but there it is.... it's kinda like life though, isn't it? No magic bullets.

Not a magic bullet but I can tell you that I was taught by a pro to use a specific set of shots to determine how the conditions were playing. Think of a system or routine as a baseline and if it's consistent then adjusting comes easy.

I shoot the same system no matter the table and it works. Over the period of three nights earlier this year I beat the same guy on four different tables. We started out on a Brunswick Gold Crown five and went to three other brand tables with different cloths, rails and climate conditions and I beat him on all of them. The last one was very troublesome as it was super fast and the rails were super springy and the pocket were cut weird in that they were big but they rejected balls like they were tight.

So I adjusted my speed and my patterns to fit the table but I did not adjust the way I aim.

And you know this really gets lost or hardly talked about because we can't seem to get past aiming but we rarely talk about pocket speed when managing the table conditions. Efren is the master of this. Where Earl Strickland hits everything crisp into the center of the pocket Efren uses the rails a lot and the right pocket speed to make the shots.

I posted a link to the old 1995 article on how the pros aim. I asked for people to pick out the gems, no one did.

One of those gems was where Efren said how he aims depends a lot on the next shot.

Think about that one for a while.

 

[JB Cases]

So you feel like the system corrects for alignment and vision errors?

That's interesting.

I feel that way. I think that this is part of the reason why sometimes when i get down on the shot using "the system" my brain is telling me it's wrong but if I stay down and shoot it anyway the ball goes in.

I think that the wrong feeling I get come from all those years of lining up wrong and feeling like it was right. My compensation was to use a TON f body english all the time. People loved to comment on it.

Now when I think about it I have to say that the body english possibly came from the vision errors where my eyes said this is the line and my subconscious said "better throw it a little".

 

[DecentShot]

Stand behind the shot. Visualize how the cue ball would travel in a straight line to the object ball. That line extends to the center of your body. Your nose, the middle of your chest, etc. Then visualize a dot on the top of the CB. Make a line from that dot to the point on the table where you get to your OB. Make a dot and the end point. As you bend down over your shot keep those two points aligned. When the shot is more straight the dot will end up on the OB, as the cut becomes more severe, the end point will travel away from the OB and onto the table. This took me some time to come up with, but its been ridiculously consistent.

 

[naji]

But when that skill is mastered and then why can't the same person accurately get down and send the cue ball to a target consistently?
.

The key word "mastered" , it does not mean they do not miss, it means masters know everything about pool that will give him/her the best chance to make the balls, yes i said chance. Every pool shot has so many variables before you go down and shoot, and if one consider all of these variables, and the execution fell short the shot will be missed, my skill level i have counted so far 32 variables, i am sure there is more at mastery level, and off course all these have to be programmed in the brain, so when you see a shot you know what variables to apply to make ball and get desired cb position.
Bottom line, i agree aim is critical, but where to aim is even more critical.
Best of luck

 

[BradenK]

Stand behind the shot. Visualize how the cue ball would travel in a straight line to the object ball. That line extends to the center of your body. Your nose, the middle of your chest, etc. Then visualize a dot on the top of the CB. Make a line from that dot to the point on the table where you get to your OB. Make a dot and the end point. As you bend down over your shot keep those two points aligned. When the shot is more straight the dot will end up on the OB, as the cut becomes more severe, the end point will travel away from the OB and onto the table. This took me some time to come up with, but its been ridiculously consistent.

I like this idea a lot. I am going to try this later today.

Last night, I had a beautiful break and run in my first game of the match. The break was not so great, and the layout was tough, but my first shot opened the table some. As I dropped balls, it became obvious to both teams that one ball was going to be what the game hinged upon. Everyone looked at it and all came up with the same conclusion: It would not go into the corner pocket because my oponnent's ball was partially blocking it. I played the run the whole time expecting the ball to go into that specific corner pocket, which it did. Why? Because the table is a Valley bar box, and the pockets on these tables are forgiving. I knew if I hit pocket speed, I could hit the rail first, even though the OB was not riding that rail in any way.

This goes back to knowing your conditions and table, and aiming accordingly. That ball would have never dropped on a Diamond, but it was easy on the Valley. Variance makes a huge difference in pool. Thus, aiming is not a static activity, but rather relative to the table and conditions under which you are playing.

Braden

 

[walrus_3d]

For me I always had trouble with certain shots. Mostly backward cuts and thin cuts up the rail. My percentages were horrible to the point that I would not take those shots in a money game. It was like I was spotting people every game because I would try to duck instead of going for the out. Meanwhile they would shoot those shots in and I'd be pissed off thinking I SHOULD be able to make those shots with no problem. So for me the missing ingredient was confidence. I was never confident that I was on the right line and so I would dog the shots trying to steer them in, and this affected my position play as well because I could not focus on getting position while worried about making the shot and vice versa.

I think the piece in red is the intent of aiming systems. They give you a repeatable and accurate method of finding the correct target, which gives you the confidence to make your necessary corrections before you get down on the shot, and then just fire along the line for the shot you've already set up. Everybody misses shots trying to steer them in. It's when you make shots steering them in that you really damage your confidence in your aiming system. "I did something different on that shot, and it went in, which means I was aiming the wrong way!"

Trust in your aim inspires confidence, which improves your chances of making the ball. Simple.

 

[JoeyA]

Snake-oil • Delusional • Ridiculous • Purposefully deceitful • Ludicrous • Marketing

I honestly take no side either way on the staggering amount of aim system controversy that has ravaged this forum for such a long time now. I'm firmly in the 'what ever works' camp.

The obsession with the topic however is pretty interesting, I pop in and out of the forum from time to time and it seems there is always a page full of threads on the subject. Now I find myself curious about something....

1. Systems aside, I mostly would just like to know what is it about lining up a shot that is the problem for most people? We all know and I believe all agree that system or not, stroke and execution stand alone from the 'aiming' process. I also believe and 'think' its agreed upon that the various systems out there do not account for spin/throw/english/whatever etc. (If I'm wrong about that then someone can correct it)

So the question I have and have not seen answered so far...

2. What specific piece of information about the shot is needing to be provided by the "aim system"? 3. Is it more than just finding the contact point on the OB ? I guess this is a question to the system people but I'd really like to hear from anyone with aim problems what they feel is the thing that gives them the most problems. 4. Basically why do you feel you miss and is that correction provided by using one of the available 'Aim systems' ?
(I'd just like to add that I assume that when the term "aim system" is used , it referes to an established method for aiming that is packaged, sold and/or taught as a complete developed (ideally) unique system. It's not meant to include the 'typical' steps anyone would have to go thru to aim a shot that some would say the parts of still compose a 'system' for the sake of semantics.)

Maybe understanding the the individual challenges some people have might help understand the need such systems are expected to fulfill.

TIA

NOT..............

1. Their are various problems for people trying to line up a shot. Many of them and maybe MOST of them have never found the perfect place for lining up a shot.

Alignment is something that is missing from some "aiming systems", while others dwell on this aspect of lining up a shot.

For some people, and maybe most people, they do not line up a shot the same exact way each and every time and when their internal GPS is off, they line up incorrectly from time to time (and miss balls). Yeah, I think many of the newer aiming systems take into account many of the nuances of lining up a shot whereas the older aiming systems, like ghost ball and contact point to contact point are seldom mentioned in the same chapter with alignment of body or alignment of eyes.

2. Aiming, lining up a shot, preparing to set up, execution are all important pieces of the puzzle and some people have certain aspects of aiming down pat and are inconsistent or simply void of certain aspects of aiming. It is up to each person to figure out what aspects of the shot that they are failing in, because any one of the dozens of things that can go wrong with a shot, are probably contributing to a missed shot or at least inconsistency.

3. There is WAY MORE to executing a shot correctly than just a contact point, WAY, WAY MORE. That is one of the reasons why so many people fail with ghost ball aiming and contact point to contact point aiming. Those two don't take into account all of the things that are important to making a shot and getting shape.

4. I think the answer varies from one person to another and from one day to the next day.

But the bottom line to potting balls and getting shape is to get yourself into the right body alignment and correct eye perspective to allow you to see the shot so that when you stroke straight, (whether you use BHE or not) you have a better chance to make the ball.

I think the newer aiming systems and any aiming system that helps a person get in line, stay in line and see the shot more clearly is a good aiming system. The ghost ball aiming system is not a system, at least for me, because even knowing where to put the cue ball doesn't genuinely help me make the object ball.

I think that the newer aiming systems take into account more important aspects of aiming and execution, than some "scientific" aiming systems and that is why people are having more success with them. Some of the aiming systems just broadened the perspective and mapping of aiming and for some people it is like a light bulb going off in their head.

Add in the fact that we do not all share the same visual astuteness and you have another BIG reason why so many people flock to some of the newer aiming systems.

 

[dr_dave]

...
Alignment is something that is missing from some "aiming systems"
...
For some people, and maybe most people, they do not line up a shot the same exact way each and every time
...
Aiming, lining up a shot, preparing to set up, execution are all important pieces of the puzzle
...
the bottom line to potting balls and getting shape is to get yourself into the right body alignment and correct eye perspective to allow you to see the shot

Very well stated! I agree 100%. That's why I wrote a series of articles on these topics for Billiards Digest recently.

If people want to check them out, here they are:

“Aim, Align, Sight - Part I: Introduction and Ghost Ball Systems” (BD, June, 2011).
“Aim, Align, Sight - Part II: Visual Alignment” (BD, July, 2011).
“Aim, Align, Sight - Part III: Sighting” (BD, August, 2011).​

I personally think that:

finding your vision center and aligning it consistently is the single most important "fundamental" of pool.
​

Regards,
Dave

 

[RRfireblade]

See, so far I haven't seen much physical alignment and setup included in the various systems talked about here. Which are some of the ones that include setup and alignment as part of the system ?

 

[JB Cases]

See, so far I haven't seen much physical alignment and setup included in the various systems talked about here. Which are some of the ones that include setup and alignment as part of the system ?

I am not sure what you mean. All the systems I know direct me to come into the shot a certain way which forces the stance and alignment to be petty much the same for each shot. Naturally this has variance for shots that are hard to reach or where one must bridge over a ball. But that seems to be fairly easy to deal with.

 

[JoeyA]

See, so far I haven't seen much physical alignment and setup included in the various systems talked about here. Which are some of the ones that include setup and alignment as part of the system ?

CTE/Pro One does that but I have to think that other aiming systems do similar physical alignments because they force you to get your body and eyes in a particular position to see the shot in a certain EXACT manner.

 

[DecentShot]

See, so far I haven't seen much physical alignment and setup included in the various systems talked about here. Which are some of the ones that include setup and alignment as part of the system ?

When you are bringing the two points into alignment from standing to bending down over the shot, the place where they meet dictate where your body goes. It feels like your being pulled down into place.