Aiming methods are bogus!

[frankncali]

Work on your stroke, nearly everone can target, delivering the cue ball to the target seems to be the biggest problem.


Everyone uses some sort of System to pocket a ball, namely where to put your right foot,(right handed) or your left foot (Left handed) this pretty much fixes one part of a tripod, with that information and the need to get the cue away from your body, you do this buy your left foot, if your right handed or your right if your left handed. then there is your bridge hand, whitch is the 3rd leg of the tripod. Most players extend the bridge hand down the shaft to keep it on line as they get down into thier stance. once your set really all you have to do is stroke straight. Most people say, if your confortable your stance is ok, I agree to an extent, your body needs to be relaxed and confortable, but does not interfere with the cue, in any way.

How you determine where to set up your body to place your cue on line with the target is a system. Most people try to adjust to a new aiming system while they are down into thier stance already, this may place your cue going across your body, or away, and they miss, and miss, and blame it on a sytem they read about. Focus on the foundation and pocketing will come, with shotty fundamentals, comes shotty ball making and all you hear is how this or that doesnt work. WHY DO YOU THINK going to an instructor helps? Id say alot of the time they spend is getting everything lined up so you can stroke straight...lol

Play pool at your own disgression, but if you want to be serious about the game really serious you better quit being so lazy and work on those fundamentals. If your not sure ask someone to help. BUT only if they can play and know how to address the table.


SPINDOKTOR

While I agree I dont like the term "stroke straight". A straight stroke wont help if the person is not stroking along the correct line. Even if the stance(feet) and the person is aiming dead center they can stroke straight but not inline with the needed line.
Over the past few years I have really watched a large majority of players
line up close to where they need to be but have arm position or arm motion that is not along that path. Maybe head positioning plays tricks.

I always try to tell people to align the cues path and then settle the body into the correct position around it. Even then I see people thinking that they are aiming dead center on the cue ball and yet they are upwards of .25 + off from being centered on the needed shot path. Sure they hit center but they hit the center of the cueball coming from an outside or inside path.

I really wish someone could make an alignment trainer that will correctly show the player how he is aligned to the shots needed path. Maybe Joe Tuckers new device will be that training device.

Golf has the same problem but worse. Feet, thighs/hips, shoulders and
club head can all be aligned differently.

Both sports are tough to get everything aligned right at the same time. Another troublesome problem is that both sports players can "Get away" with fundamental mistakes and never notice the need for change.

 

[whitey2]

Alignment of the entire body plays a significant role in pool too!

Alignment of the entire body plays a significant role in pool too!

It can take a nearly a lifetime to be able to develop a perfect, or even a near-perfect stroke.
Learning where to hit on the object ball for any angle of shot, and combination of high/low,
left/right, speed, and cue elevation in my mind, is child's play compared to that!

 

[Jaden]

While I agree I dont like the term "stroke straight". A straight stroke wont help if the person is not stroking along the correct line. Even if the stance(feet) and the person is aiming dead center they can stroke straight but not inline with the needed line.
Over the past few years I have really watched a large majority of players
line up close to where they need to be but have arm position or arm motion that is not along that path. Maybe head positioning plays tricks.

I always try to tell people to align the cues path and then settle the body into the correct position around it. Even then I see people thinking that they are aiming dead center on the cue ball and yet they are upwards of .25 + off from being centered on the needed shot path. Sure they hit center but they hit the center of the cueball coming from an outside or inside path.

I really wish someone could make an alignment trainer that will correctly show the player how he is aligned to the shots needed path. Maybe Joe Tuckers new device will be that training device.

Golf has the same problem but worse. Feet, thighs/hips, shoulders and
club head can all be aligned differently.

Both sports are tough to get everything aligned right at the same time. Another troublesome problem is that both sports players can "Get away" with fundamental mistakes and never notice the need for change.

Here's how a straight stroke can help someone on the line. If someone knows that it is not their stroke that is causing them to miss the shot, they can consciously adjust their aim to really learn what is the correct line and to get that conditoining with the right feedback, either negative or positive that will help them to learn the proper aimlines

 

[SPINDOKTOR]

While I agree I dont like the term "stroke straight". A straight stroke wont help if the person is not stroking along the correct line. Even if the stance(feet) and the person is aiming dead center they can stroke straight but not inline with the needed line.
Over the past few years I have really watched a large majority of players
line up close to where they need to be but have arm position or arm motion that is not along that path. Maybe head positioning plays tricks.

I always try to tell people to align the cues path and then settle the body into the correct position around it. Even then I see people thinking that they are aiming dead center on the cue ball and yet they are upwards of .25 + off from being centered on the needed shot path. Sure they hit center but they hit the center of the cueball coming from an outside or inside path.

I really wish someone could make an alignment trainer that will correctly show the player how he is aligned to the shots needed path. Maybe Joe Tuckers new device will be that training device.

Golf has the same problem but worse. Feet, thighs/hips, shoulders and
club head can all be aligned differently.

Both sports are tough to get everything aligned right at the same time. Another troublesome problem is that both sports players can "Get away" with fundamental mistakes and never notice the need for change.

Yes I did elaborate on how to find the line, might have been another thread, But yes, I agree.. I used the term stroke striaght as in stroking the line. sorry for any misconception..

SPINDOKTOR

 

[frankncali]

Yes I did elaborate on how to find the line, might have been another thread, But yes, I agree.. I used the term stroke striaght as in stroking the line. sorry for any misconception..

SPINDOKTOR

I understood you. I say it all the time just because it seems like
people understand that more often. ALot of people dont want to hear that they need to adjust 4-5 things that they are doing wrong. Heck most people dont want to hear that they are doing any one thing wrong especially a fundamental.

I have been working on trying to figure out a way to help align the stroke up to the target. Do you have any ideas?
I have been thinking about actually using string or lines of some kind.
Start with the CB and OB about 4-6 feet apart and actually have balls on lines of the paths that they need to take. I was thinking it might make it easier for someone to notice where the center of the OB was going in realtion to the contact spot on the cueball.
Also if the line extend through the cueball they could see if their cue was traveling straight down this line or how close it was.
Of course it could just confuse them as well.

I like Joe Tuckers numbers system for aiming but wish that the numbers on the cueball were on both sides of the ball. It would make it easier to lineup IMO.

 

[frankncali]

Here's how a straight stroke can help someone on the line. If someone knows that it is not their stroke that is causing them to miss the shot, they can consciously adjust their aim to really learn what is the correct line and to get that conditoining with the right feedback, either negative or positive that will help them to learn the proper aimlines

Agreed. I understand it but its tough for people to want to work
on the basics. Stroking straight or leaning to do so is not nearly as difficult as learning to line up correctly deliver a shot down that path.

I have always figured that our brain was our biggest problem playing pool or at least one of the main ones. If we lineup slightly off our brain recognizes it very quickly and will try and make the correction. Allt he corrections were done without thinking so we figure that we must have done it okay. Negative reinforcement soley based on the results.

What part of SoCal are you in?
If your ever around Stix in Rancho Cucamonga ask someone to point you towards me (frank or alabama) and introduce yourself. There are a few
AZers in there and several lurkers.
SoCal should have an AZ meet, greet and shoot one day.

 

[SPINDOKTOR]

I understood you. I say it all the time just because it seems like
people understand that more often. ALot of people dont want to hear that they need to adjust 4-5 things that they are doing wrong. Heck most people dont want to hear that they are doing any one thing wrong especially a fundamental.

I have been working on trying to figure out a way to help align the stroke up to the target. Do you have any ideas?
I have been thinking about actually using string or lines of some kind.
Start with the CB and OB about 4-6 feet apart and actually have balls on lines of the paths that they need to take. I was thinking it might make it easier for someone to notice where the center of the OB was going in realtion to the contact spot on the cueball.
Also if the line extend through the cueball they could see if their cue was traveling straight down this line or how close it was.
Of course it could just confuse them as well.

I like Joe Tuckers numbers system for aiming but wish that the numbers on the cueball were on both sides of the ball. It would make it easier to lineup IMO.

Using a Lazer would be pretty cool, I also suggest Bert Kinester's advanced fundamentals, Bert seems kind of weird but how he shows you to line up and align you body is worth the price of the DVD. And yes I made all 10 in a ROW! (4.5x9) Hardest I think Ive ever played.. I can now make 1 handed no bridge shots with ease.. (Imight be bragging a little but I am proud of my achievement) My point here is everything Ive read or watched, Berts method will work, and you will be able to stroke straight.

Bert explains basicaly what a dead stroke is.


SPINDOKTOR

 

[Jaden]

Agreed. I understand it but its tough for people to want to work
on the basics. Stroking straight or leaning to do so is not nearly as difficult as learning to line up correctly deliver a shot down that path.

I have always figured that our brain was our biggest problem playing pool or at least one of the main ones. If we lineup slightly off our brain recognizes it very quickly and will try and make the correction. Allt he corrections were done without thinking so we figure that we must have done it okay. Negative reinforcement soley based on the results.

What part of SoCal are you in?
If your ever around Stix in Rancho Cucamonga ask someone to point you towards me (frank or alabama) and introduce yourself. There are a few
AZers in there and several lurkers.
SoCal should have an AZ meet, greet and shoot one day.

It may not be as difficult to learn to stroke straight but it is the most difficult to execute. This is because there is a natural tendency to correct based on experience that will take away from overall consistency and make you wonder what you're doing wrong.

I'm in Murrieta. Are you going to be at stix today?, If so what time?

 

[Jaden]

Using a Lazer would be pretty cool, I also suggest Bert Kinester's advanced fundamentals, Bert seems kind of weird but how he shows you to line up and align you body is worth the price of the DVD. And yes I made all 10 in a ROW! (4.5x9) Hardest I think Ive ever played.. I can now make 1 handed no bridge shots with ease.. (Imight be bragging a little but I am proud of my achievement) My point here is everything Ive read or watched, Berts method will work, and you will be able to stroke straight.

Bert explains basicaly what a dead stroke is.


SPINDOKTOR

I'm working on getting lasers with a beam splitter that will allow to show the actual laser line on the table for parallel to shot and tangent line and then I may develop it into a trainer that can be mounted above the table or on the edge of the tableand manipulated on gooseneck mounts allow proper alignment.

 

[SPINDOKTOR]

I'm working on getting lasers with a beam splitter that will allow to show the actual laser line on the table for parallel to shot and tangent line and then I may develop it into a trainer that can be mounted above the table or on the edge of the tableand manipulated on gooseneck mounts allow proper alignment.

Sounds very interesting, that would also be very good to learn banks as well, If there is anything I might be able to help with please do let me know.


SPINDOKTOR

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

I was at a free pool clinic this past week in which the topic of Aiming Systems came up. The well-known instructor made the comment to the effect that anyone who tries to sell their "aiming system" is selling snake oil.


I think he was trying to say that many aiming systems are too simplistic. There are many variables that can affect aiming, including throw, English, CB speed, and even humidity.

 

[dabarbr]

I have the prefect aiming system for a dead straight in shot. Hit the object ball dead square center and with no english and it will go in. Beyond that your'e on your own.

 

[frankncali]

I have the prefect aiming system for a dead straight in shot. Hit the object ball dead square center and with no english and it will go in. Beyond that your'e on your own.

Come on .. I KNOW that you know more than that.
Just this week someone was asking me about something that you told them. I did not quite understand what they were talking about. I will
ask you next time I see you.

frank

 

[erntheburn]

Achieving Dead Stroke

It's all about getting into that groove we call "Dead Stroke". All great players have shot routine that is done unconsciously, for the purpose of achieving singularity of mind and spirit.

What I meant was that being of single mind, is a state of being that has the quality of pure simplicity. No distractions are possible, because they cannot penetrate what is not there. Potting balls becomes a matter of course, the balls have in fact already been potted. It is simply a matter of setting the cue in motion to realize the eventuality. The question I ponder is how does one train oneself to achieve this mind state. What kind of drill or technique is there that will allow one to enter the zone at will? Many assert that it happens as a matter of chance, that it is a fleeting moment, something to treasure because it may never return, so revel in its mystery when it occurs but harbor little hope that you will ever enter the zone at will. A few espouse repetition and developing muscular memory, that the frequency of entering dead stroke is proportional to the number of years of experience and quality of practice.

The repetition part makes more sense to me, but there is more to it. A dead stroke is more than a matter of an aiming system, how to grip the butt of the cue, the fluidity of a pendulous forearm, the syntonic feeling that happens just before releasing the cue after a few warm up strokes. There are many distinct actions that are often so over analyzed that it can and does clutter the mind…I mean, sometimes you forget when to breath!

So, with that being said, I think that practice definitely plays the major part, the physical attempt to build neural pathways (muscular memory) so that the mind is unencumbered and lets the body do what it does naturally. It is when we think about the shot, that we upset this carnal force. When we achieve this physical ability our mind is free to focus on the task at hand, the task of manipulating a complex set of variables, formulating strategy and executing tactics.

Question: So, how does one get there?

Answer: Disciplined practice, a pre-shot routine, a kata.

I would parallel the pre-shot routine with the martial art of archery known as Kyudo. It is my belief that a mastery of such a routine will lead to dead stroke and the ability to enter the zone at will.

In Kyudo there are 8 fundamental stages to shooting an arrow at a target and I contend that these stages have a direct counterpart in one's pool shot routine. There is quite a bit of complexity in each of the stages, just as there is in a shot routine in billiards. But the truth of the matter is that in order to truly master your shot/stroke these steps must come together as one continuous sequence of movements that are performed with seamless integration (credit to http://www.kyudo.com/kyudo-t.html). Following are the 8 stages of Kyudo with the corresponding stages in a pool shot routine.

1. Ashibumi (footing) -> Move in place for the shot
2. Dozukuri (posture) -> Get balanced
3. Yugamae (ready the bow) -> Present the cue, sight the shot
4. Hikiwake (raise the bow) -> Lower body and cue to table
5. Kai (complete the draw) -> Practice strokes and indeterminate pause
6. Hanare (the release) -> The Stroke
7. Zanshin (continuation) -> Follow through, stay down
8. Yudaoshi (lowering the bow) -> Stand up

To conclude, it is my contention that if such a routine is mastered, then dead stroke will follow naturally. If one were to take on this shot routine with the same vigor, dedication, discipline and spirit as the martial artists of Kyudo, then one can achieve dead stroke at will. In a later post I'll follow with detailed explanation of the pool sequence. Perhaps we can call this new application of this ancient martial art form Stroke-do?

-erntheburn

 

[crosseyedjoe]

There still nothing beats experiencing the shot over and over again.

 

[SPINDOKTOR]

It's all about getting into that groove we call "Dead Stroke". All great players have shot routine that is done unconsciously, for the purpose of achieving singularity of mind and spirit.

What I meant was that being of single mind, is a state of being that has the quality of pure simplicity. No distractions are possible, because they cannot penetrate what is not there. Potting balls becomes a matter of course, the balls have in fact already been potted. It is simply a matter of setting the cue in motion to realize the eventuality. The question I ponder is how does one train oneself to achieve this mind state. What kind of drill or technique is there that will allow one to enter the zone at will? Many assert that it happens as a matter of chance, that it is a fleeting moment, something to treasure because it may never return, so revel in its mystery when it occurs but harbor little hope that you will ever enter the zone at will. A few espouse repetition and developing muscular memory, that the frequency of entering dead stroke is proportional to the number of years of experience and quality of practice.

The repetition part makes more sense to me, but there is more to it. A dead stroke is more than a matter of an aiming system, how to grip the butt of the cue, the fluidity of a pendulous forearm, the syntonic feeling that happens just before releasing the cue after a few warm up strokes. There are many distinct actions that are often so over analyzed that it can and does clutter the mind…I mean, sometimes you forget when to breath!

So, with that being said, I think that practice definitely plays the major part, the physical attempt to build neural pathways (muscular memory) so that the mind is unencumbered and lets the body do what it does naturally. It is when we think about the shot, that we upset this carnal force. When we achieve this physical ability our mind is free to focus on the task at hand, the task of manipulating a complex set of variables, formulating strategy and executing tactics.

Question: So, how does one get there?

Answer: Disciplined practice, a pre-shot routine, a kata.

I would parallel the pre-shot routine with the martial art of archery known as Kyudo. It is my belief that a mastery of such a routine will lead to dead stroke and the ability to enter the zone at will.

In Kyudo there are 8 fundamental stages to shooting an arrow at a target and I contend that these stages have a direct counterpart in one's pool shot routine. There is quite a bit of complexity in each of the stages, just as there is in a shot routine in billiards. But the truth of the matter is that in order to truly master your shot/stroke these steps must come together as one continuous sequence of movements that are performed with seamless integration (credit to http://www.kyudo.com/kyudo-t.html). Following are the 8 stages of Kyudo with the corresponding stages in a pool shot routine.

1. Ashibumi (footing) -> Move in place for the shot
2. Dozukuri (posture) -> Get balanced
3. Yugamae (ready the bow) -> Present the cue, sight the shot
4. Hikiwake (raise the bow) -> Lower body and cue to table
5. Kai (complete the draw) -> Practice strokes and indeterminate pause
6. Hanare (the release) -> The Stroke
7. Zanshin (continuation) -> Follow through, stay down
8. Yudaoshi (lowering the bow) -> Stand up

To conclude, it is my contention that if such a routine is mastered, then dead stroke will follow naturally. If one were to take on this shot routine with the same vigor, dedication, discipline and spirit as the martial artists of Kyudo, then one can achieve dead stroke at will. In a later post I'll follow with detailed explanation of the pool sequence. Perhaps we can call this new application of this ancient martial art form Stroke-do?

-erntheburn

I didnt want to get into the mental side of pocketing , your post however is GREAT! Im definately going to look into this because from what Ive read and what I know relates to Kyudo, Id never heard of it before now... Thanks...


SPINDOKTOR

 

[erntheburn]

I was at a free pool clinic this past week in which the topic of Aiming Systems came up. The well-known instructor made the comment to the effect that anyone who tries to sell their "aiming system" is selling snake oil.


I think he was trying to say that many aiming systems are too simplistic. There are many variables that can affect aiming, including throw, English, CB speed, and even humidity.

The cloth can make a difference also, as can squirt as you go to extremes in english. But what it all comes down to is feel. It helps to have a basic understanding of physics and geometry, but not necessary. I also think it's important to have a consistent shot routine and a consistent stroke, just like golf. An aiming system is what one uses in the absence of all this.

-erntheburn

 

[John Barton]

There still nothing beats experiencing the shot over and over again.

One thing beats it. Learning how to aim and THEN experiencing the shot over and over again.

What good is shooting the shot a million times if you are aiming wrong and you "adjust" your way into making it? When you get down on the same shot or a similar shot in a game then you are still likely to miss it because of faulty aiming.

I make shots now that used to give me fits before. Simply because for most of my pool life I didn't aim right. I thought I did. I thought when I got down on the shot that I was dead in line. But somehow I always missed certain shots and wasn't all to confident on the others.

After Hal Houle and after a road player friend got me involved with other ways to aim I became a much stronger shotmaker and a better player all around.

I shot the million balls trying in vain to "experience" my way into becoming a good player.

It wasn't until other truly good players started showing me some stuff not covered in books that I saw that there is a lot more to playing right than what is covered in Byrne's books. A lot more.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistiguishable from magic". I don't recall who said it but it certainly applies here.

another quote that fits is, "if it feels wrong, then it's probably right" said by my diving (springboard) coach in high school.

So I suppose that a lot of the new (but actually old) aiming systems making the rounds are sufficiently advanced enough as to be confusing and as such, dismissed as snake oil.

Sometimes though, all you need is a dose of sugar and a fresh outlook.

 

[Kevin]

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistiguishable from magic". I don't recall who said it but it certainly applies here.

Arthur C. Clarke

another quote that fits is, "if it feels wrong, then it's probably right" said by my diving (springboard) coach in high school.

If you've been doing it "wrong" I agree it's probably a step in any direction is better than staying where you are...

 

[I rack balls]

yeah, i second that. i think that aiming systems are full of BS . i believe that people who constantly relies on aiming systems when they play should bring the following: a scientific calculator, a protractor, t-square, a pen and papers just in case you can't figure out the angle of aim. also, don't forget your pocket protector

If there is a "pocket protector" then the ball wont go in no matter how you aim.

Eric.