I generally play eight ball with my family or just practice shooting in balls that are spread out on the table and practice position on an 8 foot table that I have at home. Occasionally, I play on a 9 foot table. I don?t typically shoot very hard. I am very interested in learning straight pool and I have been practicing breaks but I have one issue I find difficult. When I hit the cue ball hard to break up rack, I typically miss the corner pocket on the wide side, meaning I overcut the ball. If I am shooting the ball into the right corner pocket in a typical set-up break situation, say a 35% angle into the right corner pocket (I am left handed), I have to aim for a thinner cut, maybe a 26-28% type of cut (I am just guessing at the angle) to make the shot. Basically I am aiming about 2 inches to the left of the right corner pocket. From what I have read this may be some type of throw or lack of throw because I am shooting hard. Any thoughts?
Aiming on Break
- Thread starter houston15
- Start date
from what i gather...if the balls are dirty and you shoot hard, you will throw the object ball a little bit causing it to UNDER cut, not overcut. i may be wrong there but thats how i see it. if the 2 balls skid when contacted than they will continue just a bit on the tangent line. not insulting here, just offering advice, maybe slow down and get the shot down. then gradualy increase speed. could be a slight flaw in your stroke that is magnified when you shoot hard. again, not insulting, just offering advice. take it as you will, im not an instructor by any means. good luck!
Jay
Jay
Not sure about what jay says, here's how I understand it:
Cutting a ball at certain angles (I think 30 to 50 degrees about) has a larger throw effect than straighter or thinner cuts.
Throw increases at slower speeds. Very slowly rolled shots at these 'throwable' angles can be altered a fair amount (dunno how much.. half inch to an inch maybe? I never measured it).
At hard speeds (and I think this is true even with somewhat dirty equipment) the effect is so small it doesn't even matter, and if you miss the shot it's because you missed.
I remember having that feeling, that my break shot in straight pool always seems to be thicker or thinner than a similar shot in other games. There are a bunch of things that can cause this feeling but the bottom line is you're mentally changing your cut angle or stroke because of some habit you built playing 8 ball.
Some possibilities:
- You're used to throwing all your shots in with outside spin (which would require a fatter hit to prevent the ball from overcutting). So when the time comes to make them with pure center ball/draw/follow... you are seeing that 28% cut as a 35% cut, a shot you're used to hitting a bit 'fat'... when really it was a 28 all along and you should have been hitting it thinner.
- Or, you could be used to throwing shots in with a touch of inside spin, and letting the cue ball sorta deflect off your tip into the shot. So you aim at the "35% angle" and the cue ball deflects to the 27-28 percent angle and throws the ball in. That would be a ton of deflection, and it's unusual to see this kind of shooting habit, so probably this isn't the issue. But I thought I'd bring it up.
- You might unconsciously trying to 'steer' the cue ball into the object ball to make a fatter (and therefore more predictable) hit. Or you might feel like you really want a fat hit to get the best draw or follow action, so you see the shot as a shallower cut than it really is... basically you have wishful thinking turning your thinner cut into what looks like a fatter one because you want the fatter one.
The bottom line is... I think you're delivering the cue ball to the wrong place if the shot gets missed, it's not throw. It very well might be the outside english thing, this is a super common habit that I had a hard time overcoming. If I had to shoot into the right corner pocket I'd try to put left spin on the cue ball all day thinking it would really help me wang into the side of the pack or hit the pack and spin uphill back to me. I don't think it helps, or if it does help it's still making the shot a lot harder than it needs to be.
Cutting a ball at certain angles (I think 30 to 50 degrees about) has a larger throw effect than straighter or thinner cuts.
Throw increases at slower speeds. Very slowly rolled shots at these 'throwable' angles can be altered a fair amount (dunno how much.. half inch to an inch maybe? I never measured it).
At hard speeds (and I think this is true even with somewhat dirty equipment) the effect is so small it doesn't even matter, and if you miss the shot it's because you missed.
I remember having that feeling, that my break shot in straight pool always seems to be thicker or thinner than a similar shot in other games. There are a bunch of things that can cause this feeling but the bottom line is you're mentally changing your cut angle or stroke because of some habit you built playing 8 ball.
Some possibilities:
- You're used to throwing all your shots in with outside spin (which would require a fatter hit to prevent the ball from overcutting). So when the time comes to make them with pure center ball/draw/follow... you are seeing that 28% cut as a 35% cut, a shot you're used to hitting a bit 'fat'... when really it was a 28 all along and you should have been hitting it thinner.
- Or, you could be used to throwing shots in with a touch of inside spin, and letting the cue ball sorta deflect off your tip into the shot. So you aim at the "35% angle" and the cue ball deflects to the 27-28 percent angle and throws the ball in. That would be a ton of deflection, and it's unusual to see this kind of shooting habit, so probably this isn't the issue. But I thought I'd bring it up.
- You might unconsciously trying to 'steer' the cue ball into the object ball to make a fatter (and therefore more predictable) hit. Or you might feel like you really want a fat hit to get the best draw or follow action, so you see the shot as a shallower cut than it really is... basically you have wishful thinking turning your thinner cut into what looks like a fatter one because you want the fatter one.
The bottom line is... I think you're delivering the cue ball to the wrong place if the shot gets missed, it's not throw. It very well might be the outside english thing, this is a super common habit that I had a hard time overcoming. If I had to shoot into the right corner pocket I'd try to put left spin on the cue ball all day thinking it would really help me wang into the side of the pack or hit the pack and spin uphill back to me. I don't think it helps, or if it does help it's still making the shot a lot harder than it needs to be.
JohnnyP said:
Not trying to be arguminative here, but being cross-dominant
should not be a problem.
There was this guy named Willie something-or-other who was
strongly cross-dominant. He played pretty well.
Seriously - it might be a matter of stance. Typically, cross-dom
players stand more like Mosconi did, body angled to the line of the
shot, shooting arm sort of tucked in close to the body.
Dale<who wishes he was cross-dominant>
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pdcue:
I asked Wayne Norcross about the photo that makes it look like Mosconi was cross dominant. He said (might not be an exact quote) "I have an autographed copy of that photo. He didn't shoot that way. It was posed for the camera."
I only make it to the pool hall about once a week, and practice the "L" drill a lot, sometimes four hours non stop. I sometimes get stuck on the rail near the side pocket, shooting at the corner ball. Jacked up, I can't make it unless I aim to miss the pocket on the right side.
Roy (Sensei) Yamane was wathcing me practice before the straight pool tournament at Danny K's this summer. I asked him why I kept missing this shot. He got down behind the pocket while I was lining up. He said hold the position, then came around and took the cue from me, keeping the cue in my aiming line. I went around behind the pocket, and saw that I was aiming to hit the first diamond to the left of the pocket.
Toying with the idea of an eye patch to force me to use my left eye, but then I think of the movie "Tin Cup".
I asked Wayne Norcross about the photo that makes it look like Mosconi was cross dominant. He said (might not be an exact quote) "I have an autographed copy of that photo. He didn't shoot that way. It was posed for the camera."
I only make it to the pool hall about once a week, and practice the "L" drill a lot, sometimes four hours non stop. I sometimes get stuck on the rail near the side pocket, shooting at the corner ball. Jacked up, I can't make it unless I aim to miss the pocket on the right side.
Roy (Sensei) Yamane was wathcing me practice before the straight pool tournament at Danny K's this summer. I asked him why I kept missing this shot. He got down behind the pocket while I was lining up. He said hold the position, then came around and took the cue from me, keeping the cue in my aiming line. I went around behind the pocket, and saw that I was aiming to hit the first diamond to the left of the pocket.
Toying with the idea of an eye patch to force me to use my left eye, but then I think of the movie "Tin Cup".
JohnnyP said:
No disrespect to Mr W. Norcross, But I saw Mosconi play exhib games
several times.
If you are refering to the cover photo on the 'little red book',
I'm sorry, but that is very close to how he stood,
head erect, right arm tucked in close to his body,
cue under his left eye. There are numerious photos inside
both of his books that are equally compelling.
You can watch his 1980-ish video. It is obvious he lines the cue
squarely under his left eye. Granted, camera angles can and do
effect perception, but there are several shots head-on enough,
that it is unmistakeable. Besides, I saw it with my own dominant
eye all those years ago.
FWIW - I would advise against a patch. Regardless of how
you are aligned, you get info from both eyes. If you shut your right eye
while first sighting, it will be obvious if your left eye is over the cue.
I tried shooting with one eye closed - couldn't make a ball - YMMV.
Dale
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Thanks for the advice. After reviewing it and reading some info on contact throw from Dr. Dave, I think the problem is that I have gotten used to a certain amount of CIT because I typically don't hit the ball all that hard when cutting the object ball. When I hit hard, I get less CIT and in my aiming I am unconciously allowing for CIT. Add to that a stroke that is not necessarily arrow straight when I am trying to hit hard and the result is I miss the shot. When I really focus on freezing everything but my arm I get better results but I still have to change my aim a bit to hit the pocket.
I appreciate the comments.
I appreciate the comments.
JohnnyP said:
His advice on speed was 'Soft and softer'.
I watched him run 100-and-out in exhib games 3 or 4 times
90% plus of his shots just rolled into the pocket. It wasn't
leave-it-hanging-in-the-pocket speed, but it wasn't much
harder.
And his stroke was just as smooth as glass - by far the smoothest
and most graceful I've ever seen. By comparison, his style
on the Legends TV "matches" was sort of clunky. But they
were playing 9 ball and 8 ball, not exactly his favorites.
Even in the 1980 instructional video - he is not so smooth
nor graceful as in the days right after 'The Hustler'.
But, he was nearing 70, and hadn't played competively for
25 years.
I saw him at the trade show a year or so before he passed away.
Shot a few trick shots and signed some autographs.
The stroke was still as smooth as glass.
At the end of the day, it was his control that was so amazing.
It seemed like almost every shot was from 2 in to 2 ft from the
pocket, and the cue ball was 10 - 12 inches away - 10 degrees
off straight-in.
He did strongly favor the extremly thin, back-cut for break shots.
Dale
I agree with Dale on this. Cross eye dominance is more of an issue for gun sighting because the shooter HAS to place one eye or the other on the longitudinal axis of the barrel.
So, a right handed shooter who is left eye dominant has a real issue to deal with...because the actual target simply is not where it appears to be visually.
Some World Champion shooters have just learned to adjust and shoot where the target actually is (or is going to be) instead of where his eyes tell him.
But in pool, we at least have the OPTION to place the cue directly between our two eyes. That ability leads to a far better outcome than if we HAD to place the cue under the non-dominant eye.
Intuitively, it would seem best to place the cue under out dominant eye if we are not cross dominant and as Dale points out, Willie did so as do many other top players.
But without having conducted a study, it would be my GUESS that there are more champion players who hold the cue between their eyes than those who hold it directly under an eye.
But it all boils down to what you get used to...or can't get used to and the eye can adapt in amazing ways. For example, I took my COMPUTER glasses to an event one night and when I bent over the shots, the balls looked OBLONG. Not quite like an egg viewed from the side but not TOO much different.
I played anyway...and got destroyed but by the end of the evening THE BALLS LOOKED ROUND AGAIN!!
I have no clue about the physiology involved but it just seems that the brain KNOWS the damn balls are round and overrides any signals to the contrary it gets from the eyes.
The point being that since you referred to just one shot that you are having trouble with, possibly the best solution is to just shoot it until the aim starts to look natural to you...i.e. just train your eye as Feijen certainly had to do.
Regards,
Jim
So, a right handed shooter who is left eye dominant has a real issue to deal with...because the actual target simply is not where it appears to be visually.
Some World Champion shooters have just learned to adjust and shoot where the target actually is (or is going to be) instead of where his eyes tell him.
But in pool, we at least have the OPTION to place the cue directly between our two eyes. That ability leads to a far better outcome than if we HAD to place the cue under the non-dominant eye.
Intuitively, it would seem best to place the cue under out dominant eye if we are not cross dominant and as Dale points out, Willie did so as do many other top players.
But without having conducted a study, it would be my GUESS that there are more champion players who hold the cue between their eyes than those who hold it directly under an eye.
But it all boils down to what you get used to...or can't get used to and the eye can adapt in amazing ways. For example, I took my COMPUTER glasses to an event one night and when I bent over the shots, the balls looked OBLONG. Not quite like an egg viewed from the side but not TOO much different.
I played anyway...and got destroyed but by the end of the evening THE BALLS LOOKED ROUND AGAIN!!
I have no clue about the physiology involved but it just seems that the brain KNOWS the damn balls are round and overrides any signals to the contrary it gets from the eyes.
The point being that since you referred to just one shot that you are having trouble with, possibly the best solution is to just shoot it until the aim starts to look natural to you...i.e. just train your eye as Feijen certainly had to do.
Regards,
Jim
av84fun said:
I used to think shaft directly under the dominant eye was by far
the best way, but it is possible that having the eye(s) consistantly
in the same place, relative to the cue, is the most important concern.
Perhaps the number of good shotmakers who get down so low is due
more to the fact that they learned to shoot with their eyes in the same
place all the time, than that there is any specific advantage to being
really, really, low.
My own simple-minded opinion is that you don't actually get
any better 'view' of the shot when you are lower.
To ther OP, as my new-best-friend Jim said,
practice, practice, practice....
Some specifics
1. Maybe it's the 'hard' part - try shooting the exact same shot half
as hard - if you make it, increase the force a bit at a time.
2. more stroke, less speed. One some shots, follow thru is more
effective than speed at opening up the rack. Also, try thinner cuts,
less energy lost in hitting the break ball means more bang when the
CB collides with the rack
3. Are you taking your eye off the ball?
We all love to watch the CB splatter the balls wide open, but your focus shoul be on the OB.
I even sometimes have players shoot the break ball 5 time with no other
balls on the table. Idea is you remove the temptation to look at the
wrong thing.
HTH
Dale
Pool
YOU CANNOT GUESS 35 DEGREE ANGLE, NO ONE CAN. NOR CAN YOU BE AIMING 26 OR 28 DEGREES OF ANGLE. YOU SAY YOU ARE AIMING DEGREES OF ANGLE. NO PRO OR AMATEUR CAN GUESS AT DEGREES OF ANGLES. AND FINALLY, STOP SLAMING BALLS. SLAMING THE RACK IS NOT PLAYING 14.1houston15 said:
Sometimes when I get a break shot I am not comfortable with, I just concentrate on making the shot the way I would for nine ball and try to get the cueball to end up on the other end of the table. In most cases this does mean using outside english when that may not be the right shot, but I would rather make the object ball and have a good chance of continuing my run or playing safe, then busting open the rack and hoping I make the shot.
Of course, if you discover a break shot that is a weakness, you should practice it until it feels natural.
Of course, if you discover a break shot that is a weakness, you should practice it until it feels natural.