Aiming System Or Not?

[BC21]

Ok. Never heard of any other system, not cte or any other? Never saw any aiming system discussion?

Ok, I got you. You think that that poolology is unnecessary since players can easily imagine the right shot line. If the shooter can easily imagine the shot line then why are there any aiming systems at all?

Even ghost ball is not needed in that case.

I did some experiments with my staff and found that they could not easily imagine the shot line. I would have personally loved my time playing pool these past 35 years if imagining the shot line were easy.

Anyway my intention was not too argue with you. Lou is not correct here and if you agree with him then neither are you.

Regarding aiming systems in general there is not one single person who is a creators/seller/promoter of them who has claimed that players are robotic. Not one, not ever.

That's a red herring strawman nonsensical point which is completely wrong.

And the idea that players are doing all sorts of moving and adjusting of their aim while down is also not a true statement. Some players do this and it is generally not considered to be good form. Most good players that I observe do not try to aim while down, they aim standing up and go into shooting position with a chosen shot line. They often get up if they don't like the view from ball address and re-aim and go back to back address.

However if I am wrong then please provide plenty of video evidence of this aiming while down that Lou and you claim is the default action of pool players.

Oh no...I certainly don't think players can simply recognize aim lines unless they have plenty of experience doing it. But even experienced players miss shots all the time, shots that haven't come up enough in their experience to become recognizable or known.

Aiming is a skill. Understanding how we develop skills in the mind is important when it comes to understanding the benefits of good learning habits and skill development tools.

I see aiming systems as skill development tools. If a system doesn't help with skill development then it's not a very good system.

I also did a couple of aiming experiments that showed a huge difference between using an estimated ghostball line and a known fractional aim for beginners. One experiment involved my wife, and the other involved a 6yr old boy. The results proved without a doubt that "knowing" where to aim, rather than estimating where to aim, results in more shots being successfully pocketed.
And if more shots are hitting the pocket, the mind is getting more positive info pertaining to aiming, and this leads to being programmed faster, as far as developing consistent aiming skills.

I believe what Lou is talking about is no different than what you can see Stan Shuffett do once he is down on the shot. He ensures that everything is aligned in accordance with what his eyes are looking at, no different than what most of us do after we get down o the shot. I don't do any silly head weaving or cue movements at this point, but I've seen some good players who do. It's almost like they didn't aim when they standing up. They just got their body close to where it needed to be, then when they bend down to address the cb they begin looking for the aim line. I don't do this, not even slightly. Short of micro-adjustments for speed or spin, which I assumed Lou was referring to, I don't do a lot moving anything.

 

[lfigueroa]

Oh no...I certainly don't think players can simply recognize aim lines unless they have plenty of experience doing it. But even experienced players miss shots all the time, shots that haven't come up enough in their experience to become recognizable or known.

Aiming is a skill. Understanding how we develop skills in the mind is important when it comes to understanding the benefits of good learning habits and skill development tools.

I see aiming systems as skill development tools. If a system doesn't help with skill development then it's not a very good system.

I also did a couple of aiming experiments that showed a huge difference between using an estimated ghostball line and a known fractional aim for beginners. One experiment involved my wife, and the other involved a 6yr old boy. The results proved without a doubt that "knowing" where to aim, rather than estimating where to aim, results in more shots being successfully pocketed.
And if more shots are hitting the pocket, the mind is getting more positive info pertaining to aiming, and this leads to being programmed faster, as far as developing consistent aiming skills.

I believe what Lou is talking about is no different than what you can see Stan Shuffett do once he is down on the shot. He ensures that everything is aligned in accordance with what his eyes are looking at, no different than what most of us do after we get down o the shot. I don't do any silly head weaving or cue movements at this point, but I've seen some good players who do. It's almost like they didn't aim when they standing up. They just got their body close to where it needed to be, then when they bend down to address the cb they begin looking for the aim line. I don't do this, not even slightly. Short of micro-adjustments for speed or spin, which I assumed Lou was referring to, I don't do a lot moving anything.

Right.

If you've decided what you want to do you just approach the shot and plop down on the shot line you've chosen with the bridge hand position and height you've selected. I think for experienced players it's all done subconsciously in a nano-second. For an inexperienced player there is probably some conscious decision making going on before descent.

From there any final adjustments are almost microscopic because you've already decided on the parameters you're trying to achieve with the shot (speed, angles, and cushions), the shot line, where you want to hit the CB, what bridge will be needed, and how hard you want to hit the ball. By the time you're taking your warm up strokes all the heavy lifting has been done except for very minor tweaks. If anything significant needs to be adjusted, of course you're going to get up and start over.

Lou Figueroa

 

[JB Cases]

Subconscious microscopic adjustment is invisible to the shooter and observer so why mention it? Aiming systems provide a guide that players use to consciously and objectively move them from standing to shooting position.

Anything that a person does to consciously analyze the task in front of them and drives the physical movements they take is a clear aid to completing the task. But the success of the task, in this case making the ball and getting shape, is dependent on how good the guides are and how well the user uses them.

 

[lfigueroa]

Subconscious microscopic adjustment is invisible to the shooter and observer so why mention it? Aiming systems provide a guide that players use to consciously and objectively move them from standing to shooting position.

Anything that a person does to consciously analyze the task in front of them and drives the physical movements they take is a clear aid to completing the task. But the success of the task, in this case making the ball and getting shape, is dependent on how good the guides are and how well the user uses them.

The adjustments are small but the shooter completely aware of them — to an observer, probably not seeable.

Pool is a game of great precision and these tiny adjustments, though almost invisible, are critical.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Maniac]

They are adjustments to the general line of aim.

Thank you. A certain person on this thread said this: "There are plenty of people on this forum who can get sight/aim the shot while standing and drop in with no tweaking needed or done for the majority of shots they take."

If that were true, those people would be dropping down on the shot and immediately firing (on the "majority of their shots"). If they are perfect on the shot after dropping down, why take practice strokes? Why not just get down and fire? The practice stroke in itself is a form of adjustment. Why practice stroke if you can drop down on the shot and be ready to fire making zero tweaking/adjustments?

I don't care what anybody says, anyone who drops down on a shot, their brain is telling them to get their micro-adjustments in order before they pull the trigger. It is a state of subconsciousness that one wouldn't even realize was happening.

As an example, I've seen many (or all, really) of the top players in the world get down on a shot, not feel comfortable, stand up and start all over. I've seen Dennis Orcullo get down and stand back up 10 times on a single shot. I bet he's not doing the exact same thing every single time he goes down for those shots. Pretty sure he's making micro-adjustments.

 

[Maniac]

Subconscious microscopic adjustment is invisible to the shooter and observer so why mention it?

Because it happens, Mister "There are plenty of people on this forum who can get sight/aim the shot while standing and drop in with no tweaking needed or done for the majority of shots they take."

Done here.....I hope.

Maniac (but not as bat-sh*y crazy as some on this forum)

 

[Guy Manges]

I do think that this is very close to the most common sense way of approaching where to hit the OB - I agree that there are basically only about 8 locations on one half an OB that, based on the angle of approach from the CB - will pocket just about every possible shot.

While standing behind the CB and OB and noting where on the cushion the OB will strike given a center to center ball hit from the CB; AND, then noting where that OB will hit the cushion relative to the desired pocket, over time one can learn to see the appropriate point on the OB to hit - it is one of 8 points on half the OB. Now you move into the line of the shot as pre determined and begin the eye pattern movements between CB and OB, followed by warm up strokes.

I don't think it is a system, it is just a method, not perfect, subject to other variables that would need to be factored in as adjustments to the point of aim ( any side spin being the biggest adjustment) . Let's face it- most pros have been playing several hours a day since they were in their teens, many, if not most never held a full time job for any length of time, anyone playing that much may in fact not be conscious of any aiming method that they employ.

For most pool players, they DO need some point of reference BC they simply don't have enough playing hours logged in to shoot consistently well by instinct. I worked full time, traveled extensively for business, owned a home, raised a family - even with a table in my home I felt that I needed to develop SOMETHING to keep me more consistent in pocketing balls with only 4-6 hours a week devoted to pool playing.

The idea presented here by Sharivari is as good as any - personally I could never catch on to ideas like Ghost ball aiming- I am just not good at visualizing something that really does not exist - especially while trying to perform a perfect stroke. Sharvari's method is not based on visualization as much as it is based on the reality of the angle of the cut shot i.e.- where the CB and OB present themselves relative to the pocket.

After some seventy five of the game I sa y YES ...

 

[Low500]

Oh no...I certainly don't think players can simply recognize aim lines unless they have plenty of experience doing it. But even experienced players miss shots all the time, shots that haven't come up enough in their experience to become recognizable or known.

Aiming is a skill. Understanding how we develop skills in the mind is important when it comes to understanding the benefits of good learning habits and skill development tools.

I see aiming systems as skill development tools. If a system doesn't help with skill development then it's not a very good system.

I also did a couple of aiming experiments that showed a huge difference between using an estimated ghostball line and a known fractional aim for beginners. One experiment involved my wife, and the other involved a 6yr old boy. The results proved without a doubt that "knowing" where to aim, rather than estimating where to aim, results in more shots being successfully pocketed.
And if more shots are hitting the pocket, the mind is getting more positive info pertaining to aiming, and this leads to being programmed faster, as far as developing consistent aiming skills.

I believe what Lou is talking about is no different than what you can see Stan Shuffett do once he is down on the shot. He ensures that everything is aligned in accordance with what his eyes are looking at, no different than what most of us do after we get down o the shot. I don't do any silly head weaving or cue movements at this point, but I've seen some good players who do. It's almost like they didn't aim when they standing up. They just got their body close to where it needed to be, then when they bend down to address the cb they begin looking for the aim line. I don't do this, not even slightly. Short of micro-adjustments for speed or spin, which I assumed Lou was referring to, I don't do a lot moving anything.

I've seen you play, I've seen The Lou play.
He isn't half as good as you....you can take that to the bank.
He wouldn't get up there heads-up against Aranas, like you did, if his life depended on it and his fouls didn't count

 

[BC21]

Thank you. A certain person on this thread said this: "There are plenty of people on this forum who can get sight/aim the shot while standing and drop in with no tweaking needed or done for the majority of shots they take."

If that were true, those people would be dropping down on the shot and immediately firing (on the "majority of their shots"). If they are perfect on the shot after dropping down, why take practice strokes? Why not just get down and fire? The practice stroke in itself is a form of adjustment. Why practice stroke if you can drop down on the shot and be ready to fire making zero tweaking/adjustments?

I don't care what anybody says, anyone who drops down on a shot, their brain is telling them to get their micro-adjustments in order before they pull the trigger. It is a state of subconsciousness that one wouldn't even realize was happening.

As an example, I've seen many (or all, really) of the top players in the world get down on a shot, not feel comfortable, stand up and start all over. I've seen Dennis Orcullo get down and stand back up 10 times on a single shot. I bet he's not doing the exact same thing every single time he goes down for those shots. Pretty sure he's making micro-adjustments.

I am impressed with pro speed pool players.
And though I believe most shots involve some fine tuning micro type adjustments during cb address and practice strokes, I also believe for many shots the mind accounts for these adjustments automatically while stepping into the shot. So as soon as you're addressing the cb you are ready locked in on the shot.

I did a few 1min speed pool racks a couple of years. When watching the video I noticed that each shot had a slightly bigger delay prior to pulling the trigger. But at the time I felt like I was just 1-stroking every shot. Some people can do it. I think I ran a rack of 9 or 10 balls in about 1 minute.

 

[Low500]

Another purpose of a dynamic aiming system/method is it keeps a player at the table longer if he/she gets in trouble on position or speed. If the opponent is 'glued' to his chair he is powerless to do you harm (that doesn't take much sense to figure out)
Two of the greatest players who ever lived (and I grew up with both) Billy Johnson and Danny Jones weren't on the position playing level of a Mosconi or a Buddy Hall.
But their shot making abilities were so outstanding that when they got out of line, they could 'make that next ball' from long distance, get back in line and stay at the table.
Neither used any formal aiming system....they just paid the price. They not only hit a million balls when they were coming up, they hit TWO million balls.
I studied Danny for years. He only used a closed bridge when he had to draw the cueball. On all other shots he used the open bridge like those British snooker players...(another game he excelled at).
Just a FYI.

 

[JB Cases]

Because it happens, Mister "There are plenty of people on this forum who can get sight/aim the shot while standing and drop in with no tweaking needed or done for the majority of shots they take."

Done here.....I hope.

Maniac (but not as bat-sh*y crazy as some on this forum)

Does it? Ok prove it. I didn't say that some people don't do adjusting when they are down. I said, in response to Lou's claim of subconscious microadjustments, that whatever happens at that level isn't worth mentioning because they are invisible and not measurable.

Yeah I am crazy, in ways you can't imagine, but that doesn't make me wrong about this point. Just because someone chooses insult and mock and be a dick and it doesn't make you right.

No one is forcing you to be here so don't feel obligated to grace is with your presence. Nothing you have to say on this topic is original or useful.

 

[Boxcar]

Does it? Ok prove it. I didn't say that some people don't do adjusting when they are down. I said, in response to Lou's claim of subconscious microadjustments, that whatever happens at that level isn't worth mentioning because they are invisible and not measurable.

Yeah I am crazy, in ways you can't imagine, but that doesn't make me wrong about this point. Just because someone chooses insult and mock and be a dick and it doesn't make you right.

No one is forcing you to be here so don't feel obligated to grace is with your presence. Nothing you have to say on this topic is original or useful.

"No one is forcing you to be here so don't feel obligated to grace is with your presence. Nothing you have to say on this topic is original or useful."

Coming from you..................priceless!

 

[JB Cases]

"No one is forcing you to be here so don't feel obligated to grace is with your presence. Nothing you have to say on this topic is original or useful."

Coming from you..................priceless!

Correct. I am here because I enjoy the discussion. I don't have any pretense that anything I say about how to play pool is original. When I do say something then it is because I have thought about it and feel that I can back it up logically. But it is only useful in the sense that my comments impart information that people smarter and more involved have said and if someone gets benefit from that then it is because of who I am paraphrasing and not because of me.

So mocking and knocking, even done be me, is not helpful or useful.

However it my experience that when someone attempts to do a mic drop moment where they drop their nugget and declare they are done..... then they are not done. They are still reading and can't help to respond when their "unassailable" logic bomb is defused.

That is what I was responding to. I have zero illusion that I am important to pool knowledge in any way. Somehow I have 900,000 views on my cte videos but except for a few videos there is nothing original there, just cheerleading for aiming systems and for CTE in particular.

So yeah I find out kind of shitty to come in and make a declaration and then when your statement is challenged you come back and repeat it and say hubristically, "hope I am done here". To that BS I say don't come in the first place if you think you're the final word on a topic because the odds are really good that you're not.

And to be absolutely clear.....I don't give a single runny shit what you think. I know you can't stand me and that knowledge means nothing to me because your opinion of me is not on any way important to my life. You and every other anon here are nothing to me other than occasional entertainment when I choose to spend some time here. About the only value anons who operate under anon accounts that they snipe from is to remind me how big of assholes some of them can be.

But it's cool because that is the nature of forums that allow anons to be dicks. So I have learned not to care and enjoy the amazing life that I have.
When anons troll I just respond as I feel like it and don't when I don't. If what I say is challenged I will try to defend it logically and without personal attacks unless I feel like I was personally attacked. Can't personally attack an anon though so I just respond to the content and if they take it personally it's something deficient within them.

I know one thing for sure though. I love this sport more than every piece of garbage troll that exists on these forums and do more in real life to support it and help it grow than all of them combined.

 

[JB Cases]

I am impressed with pro speed pool players.
And though I believe most shots involve some fine tuning micro type adjustments during cb address and practice strokes, I also believe for many shots the mind accounts for these adjustments automatically while stepping into the shot. So as soon as you're addressing the cb you are ready locked in on the shot.

I did a few 1min speed pool racks a couple of years. When watching the video I noticed that each shot had a slightly bigger delay prior to pulling the trigger. But at the time I felt like I was just 1-stroking every shot. Some people can do it. I think I ran a rack of 9 or 10 balls in about 1 minute.

We did speed pool at one of the fury booths and what was apparent is that when a person was on then they could run around and pop balls in but if they missed an easy shot they seemed to get flustered and missed more easy shots in the rack.

It is possible to play speed pool with an aiming system. CTE has "disguised pivoting" where the pivot happens in the air for example and no one would have any idea how the user was aiming. But for the most part I would say that speed pool is easy shots without precision shape and that most players are shooting mostly by feel.

I am confident that there are extremely few players who can perform as well playing super fast if they are playing by regular rules where precision shape is required. Not saying there aren't any but I am comfortable betting real high against the majority of pool players if they are playing the ghost and required to finish every rack inside of 60-90 seconds. Especially if the players are around my speed.

If anyone reading this is between 550 and 650 Fargo and wants to try and bust me on this proposition you have action in OKC for up to $5000. I put my money where my mouth is

 

[BC21]

We did speed pool at one of the fury booths and what was apparent is that when a person was on then they could run around and pop balls in but if they missed an easy shot they seemed to get flustered and missed more easy shots in the rack.

It is possible to play speed pool with an aiming system. CTE has "disguised pivoting" where the pivot happens in the air for example and no one would have any idea how the user was aiming. But for the most part I would say that speed pool is easy shots without precision shape and that most players are shooting mostly by feel.

I am confident that there are extremely few players who can perform as well playing super fast if they are playing by regular rules where precision shape is required. Not saying there aren't any but I am comfortable betting real high against the majority of pool players if they are playing the ghost and required to finish every rack inside of 60-90 seconds. Especially if the players are around my speed.

If anyone reading this is between 550 and 650 Fargo and wants to try and bust me on this proposition you have action in OKC for up to $5000. I put my money where my mouth is

I tried it a few times a couple of years ago and recorded one good attempt. I didn't know the rules, and thought all the balls had to stop rolling after the break before shooting the first shot. So I spent about 10 seconds just waiting. Still managed to run 10, not randomly either, but in patterns, in 1 min 19 sec. I think with practice I could get pretty good at it...

 

[JB Cases]

Thank you. A certain person on this thread said this: "There are plenty of people on this forum who can get sight/aim the shot while standing and drop in with no tweaking needed or done for the majority of shots they take."

If that were true, those people would be dropping down on the shot and immediately firing (on the "majority of their shots"). If they are perfect on the shot after dropping down, why take practice strokes? Why not just get down and fire? The practice stroke in itself is a form of adjustment. Why practice stroke if you can drop down on the shot and be ready to fire making zero tweaking/adjustments?

I don't care what anybody says, anyone who drops down on a shot, their brain is telling them to get their micro-adjustments in order before they pull the trigger. It is a state of subconsciousness that one wouldn't even realize was happening.

As an example, I've seen many (or all, really) of the top players in the world get down on a shot, not feel comfortable, stand up and start all over. I've seen Dennis Orcullo get down and stand back up 10 times on a single shot. I bet he's not doing the exact same thing every single time he goes down for those shots. Pretty sure he's making micro-adjustments.

Don't be obtuse. Practice strokes are not adjustments. They are a form of settling down and getting ready to shoot and are not part of aiming, which this thread is about.

Standing up is the right thing to do, even ten times. If Dennis were playing as you claim he would never stand back up.

I also didn't say that people don't make adjustments just that it is not something everyone does when down as you claimed. Nor is it really great practice to be fidgeting when down and searching for an aim or a spin position. Often players will complain that they should have gotten up when they stayed down despite not feeling sure. Other times players will say that they changed their mind mid stroke as a reason given for a miss.

This topic is about aiming systems and while your opinion is noted it certainly isn't backed by any data. I would bet on any proficient aiming system user to score higher on the various shot making tests out there if the requirement is that the shooter one stroke every shot taken.

In fact I would bet even more on the good player who uses a good aiming system against any player of comparable speed who fidgets for aiming purposes when down as you claim they do.

But like I said I could be wrong so show us.

Here is a random match I found on you tube. Feel free to point out these aiming adjustments when they are down on the ball.

 

[JB Cases]

I tried it a few times a couple of years ago and recorded one good attempt. I didn't know the rules, and thought all the balls had to stop rolling after the break before shooting the first shot. So I spent about 10 seconds just waiting. Still managed to run 10, not randomly either, but in patterns, in 1 min 19 sec. I think with practice I could get pretty good at it...

Yeah it's fun. We did challenges where people had to run the table using speed pool rules and some where they had to run out with the regular rules of 8 or 9 ball and one where they got ball in hand every shot.

If you really want to lose weight playing do ten racks with ball in hand every shot. You will start finishing racks in under a minute consistently but you will sweat.

 

[JB Cases]

The adjustments are small but the shooter completely aware of them — to an observer, probably not seeable.

Pool is a game of great precision and these tiny adjustments, though almost invisible, are critical.

Lou Figueroa

Nah, pool is a slop game if you listen to snooker players talk about it.

If a player is making "adjustments"when down that no one else can see then great for them. I am pretty sure that when this is the claim them it is not provable without a survey of a lot of players.

But I doubt highly these claimed (invisible to the observer) adjustments are aiming adjustments.

I am pretty sure that if we took a hundred random pros and found shots where their cueing action when down is clear to see then we would see their tip consistently going to the same place during their practice strokes for most of them. And by most I mean like 90 or more.

 

[peteypooldude]

I've always had the feeling that this topic divides people the most. So I finally made a video about it. Keep in mind, that this is my personal opinion and that it worked for me. I am also convinced, that this approach is going to work for a lot of other players, that's why I've shared it.

Side note: The graph at 1:20 shows not only how the cue ball will deviate from the aiming line, but also how the object ball will deviate from the ghost ball line

However, I would also be really interested in your input on that topic. Are you using an aiming system or not? What do you think are the general pros and cons of using an system? What's your experience in general?

Whatever anyone wants to do is fine with me....
ive never understood what drives people to worry about how Someone else does anything lol.

 

[JB Cases]

Whatever anyone wants to do is fine with me....
ive never understood what drives people to worry about how Someone else does anything lol.

Because worldviews. Being judgy and mocking are the world's oldest form of free entertainment. If you have reached a decent level through brute force the last thing you want to hear is someone saying that it's possible to get to that level faster with certain tools at their disposal.

Gotta knock that guy down and not let his excitement at learning something valuable to him infect others who might start trying it too. Tell everyone else that they will only hurt their games and use mocking terms like "secret aiming system" and "magic pill".

Never upset the status quo.