Aiming Systems • NAYSAYERS • YEASAYERS

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JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
I've been thinking about this for a long time. I've wanted to write about this and just haven't gotten around to it. I've thought that I would open up Microsoft Word 2010 and start a manifest for both sides to read but I seldom write that way. Most of the time is by the seat of my pants and the only editing is type errors.

So as usual I'll do this JoeyA's way.

Aiming Systems have been around for as long as people have played pool.

NONE of the aiming systems are perfect, not one single one. The player has to rely on his or her experience from hitting lots of shots even when using the most perfect mathematical aiming system in the world. That will never change. You're not going to win any pool matches by learning an aiming system. The art of playing pool well is very difficult but aiming systems do help people with a portion of the difficult process of playing pool well.

Learning to be effective with any particular aiming system is "fraught with peril" as Grady is want to say. There are so many twists and turns to playing pool, it makes most of our heads spin. Some of the aiming systems are easy to learn but can be difficult for some people to be effective with them. Other aiming systems are difficult to learn but are easy to be effective with them. With each of the aiming systems, people have various differences of opinions.

Some of the top players in the world use aiming systems and that will never change. Bangers use aiming systems and that will never change.
Some people are more effective using one particular aiming system over another and here is where I see the fork in the road.

The YEASAYERS often tout a particular aiming system as their "Holy Grail" because it is the aiming system that has helped them "see" the shot better and helped them to pocket more balls, or at the very least, helped them to overcome an obstacle that has impeded their progress in pool.
Often times, YEASAYERS will be so happy that they have made progress with their pool game, they want to share that joy with others of like mind and spirit. I'm not sure who was the first to use the word YEASAYER but I'm sure it wasn't meant to promote forum harmony. Sometimes an occasional yeasayer will say something about an aiming system that verges on hyperbole. The creators and proponents of some aiming systems sometimes say things that aren't entirely "scientifically" correct. The truth is that the YEASAYERS care little if their aiming system is "scientifically" correct. Most of the YEASAYERS are happy enough to find a particular aiming system that is helping their game.

NAYSAYERS: I was probably one of the first to use this word as it relates to the pool forums. This word wasn't used to promote harmony in the forums either. I've used it to describe a certain group of people who besides having a difference of opinion, (than the yeasayers) have been vehement in their quest to ridicule any aiming system that doesn't meet their expectation. It is sometimes considered "game" to get under another poster's skin and some people from the naysayers camp have taken forum gamesmanship to the extremes, ridiculing people who love this game, making snide remarks about the creators of these aiming systems, covering up their mean-spirited, hate filled comments with little emoticoms, including ;-) :-).

Another tactic of the Naysayers, is to make disparaging remarks and not refer to any one particular person, hoping that the shotgun approach to this vigilantism will do the best job or stirring up s**t. Other times, the naysayers will act like a pack of dogs, nipping at one person, relentlessly, until their is so much disharmony that the yeasayer retaliates with their own pack of dogs.

I've never been a person to hate, in my personal life, professional life or my pool life. It just isn't in me. I'm not trying to be the sheriff of the forums, judge or jury but when I see hatred being expressed in these forums I can't be silent.

If the naysayers had made their perspectives known without interjecting their mean-spirited comments, I wouldn't be writing about aiming systems in this thread. There, I've gone and said it. Naysayers have been responsible for starting the ad hominem attacks on the users of aiming systems and their creators. That being said, yeasayers have been happy to retaliate with their own aresenal of emoticoms and ad hominen attacks.
And so it continues and goes on and on.

I actually understand some of the naysayers and their perspectives more so than I sometimes let on. I know where the yeasayers are coming from too.

I'm sure most of you would have to agree that I am in the yeasayer's camp, although I try to keep a balanced perspective about aiming systems. Aiming systems are just a small piece of the puzzle and for me, they are fun to learn, sometimes difficult to learn and sometimes easy to learn. I haven't found that learning aiming systems causes your game to deteriorate. Sure, when you first learn an aiming system, you have difficulty executing the shots consistently well but after the learning period, I've found that my overall game has IMPROVED, not deteriorated.

What I have perceived is that some people perform better using particular aiming systems. I'm not sure why that is so but it may be that we all have unique visual perceptions and that some aiming systems, capture not only our visual perception, but some of them help us to maintain our focus better than others. Some of the aiming systems help us with our alignment, keeping our body parts in very precise positions, including our eyes. Some people like using aiming systems while others are proud of hitting a million balls to learn how to play pool and they just aim and shoot. Their are probably more "instinctive" style players than any others simply because that is the way most of us learned how to aim (trial and error).

Nowadays, there seems to be a new aiming system coming out every few years. For me, it's no big deal. If someone can create an aiming system that helps a particular group of players, whether they be bangers or top shelf players, I don't care if it is scientifically correct or not. I am happy that anyone can improve their pool game using whatever aiming system that they are using.

There are so many aiming systems out there and more to come in the future. It is an absolute injustice for any of us to cause or add to the turmoil that we have all been a part in creating concerning aiming systems and we all have a responsibility to end it once and for all.

Most of his have noticed how threads somehow degenerate to the point where the management decides to lock or remove a particular thread because it has turned into a pizzing contest and while some think it is "sport" to see if they can heighten the tension in these threads, in order to see this happen, I do not. I have been part and parcel to heightening tension in some of these threads by using my signature blue fonts and know that it contributes to the consternation of the naysayers but I continue because I want them to feel what some of the yeasayers feel when they are pounced upon. The most important reason I use the signature blue fonts and big type is the draw attention to my personal disgust. I've even had one poster put my on ignore becuase I've gotten under their skin. ;-) So, I know that my use of the bold blue fonts is something to be used in moderation. :grin:

NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO TAKE IT UPON THEMSELVES TO BE THE JUDGE AND JURY OF WHAT OTHERS SHOULD BELIEVE OR NOT BELIEVE, NOR DO WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO RIDICULE THOSE WHO BELIEVE DIFFERENTLY THAN WE DO.

I for one, am tired of the senseless, petty, bickering, back-stabbing, sniping and trolling (FROM BOTH CAMPS) that goes on in most of these aiming threads. I hope that you will all join me in a new era of tolerance for those who don't believe as you do.
 
NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO TAKE IT UPON THEMSELVES TO BE THE JUDGE AND JURY OF WHAT OTHERS SHOULD BELIEVE OR NOT BELIEVE, NOR DO WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO RIDICULE THOSE WHO BELIEVE DIFFERENTLY THAN WE DO.[/COLOR]

.

"NOR DO WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO RIDICULE THOSE WHO BELIEVE DIFFERENTLY THAN WE DO."

Hmmm.

This is like your 3rd or 4th attempt at trying to get the "Naysayers" to shut up. I really don't get it. I'll grant you that people should not be "ridiculing" others on this site. But how about their ideas? Is it okay in your estimation to ridicule ideas that you don't agree with? I say ABSOLUTELY! As a matter of fact, that is one of -- if not the greatest -- benefits to the internet! An open exchange of ideas. I don't think it was an accident that the internet was created and then exploded right here in the GRAND OLD U.S.A. A much less open society would have never allowed its citizens to exchange ideas like this.

So, stop trying to shut people up! Let the moderators do that if they deem it is necessary.
 
Heck, I'll just copy myself from the other thread:

"I believe in aiming systems. Even bogus ones. Because I believe in the human ability to adjust. I think every aiming system gives people a focus that they don't normally have, and that they make unconscious adjustments to make those systems work. Some systems are better than others, but the real important thing about them is faith. The reason these discussions get so heated is because no one wants you messing with their faith. Pool is too difficult in the physics sense to fully understand. Like it or not, we all really play on an unconscious level.

I believe in lots of unpopular things. I told a guy to elevate his cue a couple of degrees to get more draw. It worked. Was it physics? Maybe not. Maybe it was biomechanical. Studies of the biomechanics of pool don't exist. Maybe it was psychological, again something which is poorly understood in pool. The thing is, he believed me, and it worked.

I believe some people get more action on the ball with a wrist flip. Physics? Maybe...maybe it's a double pendulum thing. It sure works in baseball:

The wrist is a very important lever in the pitching motion. In fact, Norihisa Fujii from the University of Tsukuba concluded after a 2002 study that wrist flexion and strength are major contributors for increasing throwing velocity.

In addition, many pitching coaches have incorporated a “wrist flick” during their throwing warm up progression. The Lexington Clinic reported that the wrist accounted for 10% of the force applied to the baseball during the pitching delivery.

From: http://www.thecompletepitcher.com/pitching_velocity.htm

I also think that same article has some helpful ideas for folks who want to improve their power for the 9-ball break.

I'm not sure having pros endorse a product makes that product true. I'm not sure pros actually understand what they are doing any more than the rest of us poor slobs do."
 
"NOR DO WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO RIDICULE THOSE WHO BELIEVE DIFFERENTLY THAN WE DO."

Hmmm.

This is like your 3rd or 4th attempt at trying to get the "Naysayers" to shut up. I really don't get it. I'll grant you that people should not be "ridiculing" others on this site. But how about their ideas? Is it okay in your estimation to ridicule ideas that you don't agree with? I say ABSOLUTELY! As a matter of fact, that is one of -- if not the greatest -- benefits to the internet! An open exchange of ideas. I don't think it was an accident that the internet was created and then exploded right here in the GRAND OLD U.S.A. A much less open society would have never allowed its citizens to exchange ideas like this.

So, stop trying to shut people up! Let the moderators do that if they deem it is necessary.

It's not a matter of getting people to shut up. That is not what Joey is saying at all. It's about people acting more decent to each other and having a decent conversation about a subject without all the trolling by some. If you don't think something works, state your case, and let it go. No need for the animosity by some on here.
 
Why don't we simply have a vote. Then we can see how many people actually have tried the systems and agree/disagree with them based on experience.

I feel that those who have not tried them are likely to be either on the fence or opposed and those that have tried them are more likely to be for them. So let's simply have a show of hands virtually and show where you stand.

John Barton - Yeasayer
 
Great post, Joey!

I'm a "naysayer" as far as agreeing with Hal Houle's original claims concerning CTE, but I am a "yeasayer" when it comes to all aiming systems (even CTE) having some value. I am also entirely in support of Stan Shuffet's effort to produce, and market, his dvd and lessons. And although I was originally skeptical of Gene Albrecht's Perfect Aim system, I now support his efforts, too. And since I am still not qualified to teach Pro One or Perfect Aim, I will continue to refer inquiring students to Stan and Gene.

I know that some here are not going to agree with either you or I, Joey, but I thank God that we live in a country that still gives them that right.

Roger
 
NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO TAKE IT UPON THEMSELVES TO BE THE JUDGE AND JURY OF WHAT OTHERS SHOULD BELIEVE OR NOT BELIEVE,

Correct.
Everybody is free to believe anything, no matter how ridiculous I consider it to be.

NOR DO WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO RIDICULE THOSE WHO BELIEVE DIFFERENTLY THAN WE DO.

Wrong.
I have the right to make fun of 9/11 conspiracy theorists all day. Wait... this is about aiming systems? Oh, I guess then it's completely different.
 
It's not a matter of getting people to shut up. That is not what Joey is saying at all. It's about people acting more decent to each other and having a decent conversation about a subject without all the trolling by some. If you don't think something works, state your case, and let it go. No need for the animosity by some on here.

I agree, Neil. Now you and I both need to admit that we've been a part of it, and try to do better.

Roger
 
Why don't we simply have a vote. Then we can see how many people actually have tried the systems and agree/disagree with them based on experience.

I feel that those who have not tried them are likely to be either on the fence or opposed and those that have tried them are more likely to be for them. So let's simply have a show of hands virtually and show where you stand.

John Barton - Yeasayer

Is this really in the spirit of what Joey is trying to say, John?

Roger
 
Why don't we simply have a vote.

Indiana almost voted to change the value of pi once:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Pi_Bill

Nay or yea, I think my first post in this thread explains what's really happening. If it works for you, use it. Tell others, maybe it'll work for them. Me? I believe in all aiming systems. Some do work better than others....I think the more you have to think about a shot, the less likely you are to be successful with it.
 
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Why don't we simply have a vote. Then we can see how many people actually have tried the systems and agree/disagree with them based on experience.

I feel that those who have not tried them are likely to be either on the fence or opposed and those that have tried them are more likely to be for them. So let's simply have a show of hands virtually and show where you stand.

John Barton - Yeasayer

Okay...I'm in...mark me down for fence sitter than leans towards Naysayer.

Now I'm guessing we are mainly talking about CTE, which to this day I'm still uncertain what this even is. I've read most of the CTE threads just out of curiosity and I've read through Dr. Dave's CTE info (which can be found here http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#CTE just in case you guys couldn't find a link to his website. I know they are hard to come by).

How about one last CTE thread were you guys describe again exactly how you aim with one caveat - at the end of your description you can't say that you have to purchase the DVD to fully understand it or that you have to take a lesson from a qualified instructor.

On second thought, that's probably not such a good idea. I'm sure it would just go down in flames.
 
I for one, am tired of the senseless, petty, bickering, back-stabbing, sniping and trolling (FROM BOTH CAMPS) that goes on in most of these aiming threads. I hope that you will all join me in a new era of tolerance for those who don't believe as you do.
Nice sentiments, Joey. I posted the following comments in another aiming thread but I think it's worthwhile repeating here:
IMO, the underlying problem is that many of these threads are poorly moderated. As a result, certain posters frequently get away with insulting people, name-calling and hijacking threads, among other things.

Some of these threads actually start out very promising with an interesting topic. Unfortunately, it can take just one poster on this forum with OCD or ADD, to ruin the forum for everyone. Invariably, the thread will become a train wreck that needs to be closed or even deleted.

It's worth emphasizing that this forum really could use more moderating so that everyone stays on their best behavior.
 
I'm one of the fence sitters I reckon. I've tried a bunch of em, and get "some" positive results from most. All the CTE stuff that I've tried so far seems to work well, until I miss,,,,,then I think I start subconciously adjusting, and nothing goes in from there on. The ghost ball stuff is fine I guess, and is probably what I refer to most, but there is still that percentage of the time when it gets me really close, but not good enough. Then there is all the fractional ball aiming stuff,,,,,,,if you can see the spot good enough to repeatably and reliably decide a fraction of the ball to play, and then consistently hit it thats great, but I can't. The best thing I've done lately is working with Gene Albrecht's Perfect Aim system, which has helped some in getting a better Vision of the shot, over the shot, but even at that you still have to see the "right" spot to hit it consistently, which I still have trouble accomplishing. So I think it takes pieces from different sources to make the whole package, at least in my case,,,,and I still have a couple of pieces missing.
 
I for one had a lot of questions answered when learning CTE/Pro1, but it was very difficult to wade through the various threads and arguments to find the answers and keep up with the discussions. Ultimately I got more questions answered by PM'ing certain people and going straight to the source.

Would be nice to keep a productive conversation going, but haven't seen one continue yet without degenerating into arguing and name calling, but maybe there's still hope... :)

Scott
 
Joey,

100% agree with you. Hard to believe that sometimes there are really adults on the other end........
 
It is really simple, its either for you or not, whatever works for you is what really matters and if its not working for you then try something else.
 
It is really simple, its either for you or not, whatever works for you is what really matters and if its not working for you then try something else.

I cautiously agree with this. The only thing is I've found the placebo effect to be a real thing when it comes to this game. I've been able to wake my game up several times by making subtle or not so subtle changes. Anything from changing cues, changing grip hand position, changing bridge lengths. Or even taking a break from the game for a few weeks to clear my mind (no more time for that though). I think there can sometimes be positive short term results that come just from paying closer attention to what we are doing.

If I decided I was going to take 3 warm up strokes with the butt end of my cue every time prior to flipping my cue around and proceeding to shoot the ball I wouldn't be surprised at all if for a while I saw (or thought I saw) some improvement. It seems like these sorts of things wake up your game sometimes. Don't get me wrong, I'm not equating the different aiming systems with this stupid example that I just mentioned.

So, on the one hand I think you should proceed with caution, but on the other so what if you have to keep tinkering around in order to continue to improve.
 
It's not a matter of getting people to shut up. That is not what Joey is saying at all. It's about people acting more decent to each other and having a decent conversation about a subject without all the trolling by some. If you don't think something works, state your case, and let it go. No need for the animosity by some on here.

As usual Neil, you GET IT.
 
Correct.
Everybody is free to believe anything, no matter how ridiculous I consider it to be.



Wrong.
I have the right to make fun of 9/11 conspiracy theorists all day. Wait... this is about aiming systems? Oh, I guess then it's completely different.

It's okay to be wrong. You can go back to your polite sniping. :smile:
 
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