Aiming Systems...my take !!!

[SJDinPHX]

First, I would like to enter a link, which will explain further why I started this thread. refer to... http://forums.azbilliards.com//forumdisplay.php?f=6 see thread "Advise to Dr, Dave" post #1

To all the proponents of "aiming systems", I would like to offer the following adviCe (its not adviSe RonV)
I am quite sure none of these gentlemen are reliant on their "system's as their sole source of income. Otherwise I would not have started this thread.
The "aiming system" threads usually number in the hundreds, and consist of the same group of guy's pleading their case, and calling each other idiots for not seeing their point of view. Few have ended amicably.
The reason is simple, there is NO SUCH THING as an aiming system !
The few top players who have subscribed to these "theories" would have become top players anyway (maybe sooner) without the training of one of these masters of engineering principles.
The game of pool is no different than any other sport requiring hand-eye co-ordination.
Golf, tennis, bowling, and even the contact sports, can benefit from the the teaching of coaches or trainers. But they can only teach fundimental techniques, and muscle memory. Beyond that, it is up to the individual (through love of the game) to reach their maximum potential.
Their are many qualified instructors, who can teach the basics of pool, such as, proper stance, bridge, stroke mechanics, etc. But the ones who subscribe to "aiming systems" will NOT get to teach my son or grandson.
I am sure Hal Houle, Dr. Dave, Colin, and RonV, are good guys who believe in their "engineering" principles as they relate to pool.
However, If you took the greats of our game, Ronnie Allen, Jersey Red, Keith,
Buddy, Richie, Ed Kelly and others, and tried to teach them an "aiming system" you would be laughed out of the poolroom.
The variables are infinate... humidity,table condition, squirt, swerve, pivot point, BHE,(two new ones on me) etc.
To think you can TEACH someone to adapt to all these variables is ludicrous.
I will close my diatribe by offering a real gem of information.
Don Cherry was a singer/entertainer who headlined Las Vegas Casinos in the 60's. He had a number one hit, (Band of Gold)
He was also a PGA touring member. He could have been a PBA member too, because he carried a bowling average above 210. Mr. Cherry was also a top notch pool player, It took someone like Richie Florence or Buddy Hall to beat him at 9 ball.
Don made an appearence on the Johnny Carson Show in his glory years.
Johnny asked him why he excelled at everything he did.
He was a humble guy, but the conversation eventually got down to which game (or sport) he found the most challenging. I remember Don's answer almost verbatim, he said " Johnny, if you took a hundred kids' at their most formative years, (8 t0 12) and put them all with the best tutors in their respectve sports, when they reached maturity, you would probably have 15- 200 plus bowlers, and 5 or 10 scratch golfers, but you would be very lucky to come out with ONE top level pro pool player."
I rest my case.

Dick Mc Morran

PS At about 3 WPM typing speed, I trust you all realize how strongly I believe in my convictions. I am also not a "newbie" to pool. This comes from over 50 years of mud and blood in the trenches.

 

[PKM]

You're asking for a semantic debate that will go nowhere if you claim there is no such thing as an aiming system. Clearly there are, I think the main source of debate is how much adjustment is needed from the rules of the system to make any shot, and how to explain what is happening.

 

[Dead Crab]

Overall, I would say that aiming is less than 25% of the game of pool, perhaps less. Stroke, cue ball control, and pattern play are just as important.

But, it is a necessary skill for beginers and intermediate players, and must be mastered in conjunction with stroke, before progressing to a higher level of play. It is possible to be an competent aimer but not a good pool player.

Good players have mastered it, and it isn't an issue for them, but when they started out, it surely was. Most good players have the "feel" that made this part of the game easy for them. The rest of us don't, and systematic aiming can be very helpful in allowing us to progress to the game's finer points.

 

[swrooster]

My Aiming System

My aiming system is pure simplicity; I aim to whack the ball into the hole every shot. Part 2, I aim to play every day and refine my system. Thank you very much.

 

[JimS]

I think your point is well made Dick. I also think that you're going to get flamed by everybody whose feelings you hurt by telling your truth.

I think that systems can help in the beginning but the bottom line is it takes years of work and and a certain level of talent combined to get the job done.

 

[Big C]

To all the well meaning protagonist of "aiming systems" (who have chosen to ignore my posts) I offer the following adviCe. (its not adviSe RonV.)

First, I would like to enter a link, which will explain further why I started this thread. refer to... http://forums.azbilliards.com//forumdisplay.php?f=6 see thread "Advise to Dr, Dave" post #1

To all the proponents of "aiming systems", I would like to offer the following adviCe (its not adviSe RonV)
I am quite sure none of these gentlemen are reliant on their "system's as their sole of income. Otherwise I would not have started this thread.
The "aiming system" threads usually number in the hundreds, and consist of the same group of guy's pleading their case, and calling each other idiots for not seeing their point of view. Few have ended amicably.
The reason is simple, there is NO SUCH THING as an aiming system !
The few top players who have subscribed to these "theories" would have become top players anyway (maybe sooner) without the training of one of these masters of engineering principles.
The game of pool is no different than any other sport requiring hand-eye co-ordination.
Golf, tennis, bowling, and even the contact sports, can benefit from the the teaching of coaches or trainers. But they can only teach fundimental techniques, and muscle memory. Beyond that, it is up to the individual (through love of the game) to reach their maximum potential.
Their are many qualified instructors, who can teach the basics of pool, such as, proper stance, bridge, stroke mechanics, etc. But the ones who subscribe to "aiming systems" will NOT get to teach my son or grandson.
I am sure Hal Houle, Dr. Dave, Colin, and RonV, are good guys who believe in their "engineering" principles as they relate to pool.
However, If you took the greats of our game, Ronnie Allen, Jersey Red, Keith,
Buddy, Richie, Ed Kelly and others, and tried to teach them an "aiming system" you would be laughed out of the poolroom.
The variables are infinate... humidity,table condition, squirt, swerve, pivot point, BHE,(two new ones on me) etc.
To think you can TEACH someone to adapt to all these variables is ludicrous.
I will close my diatribe by offering a real gem of information.
Don Cherry was a singer/entertainer who headlined Las Vegas Casinos in the 60's. He had a number one hit, (Band of Gold)
He was also a PGA touring member. He could have been a PBA member too, because he carried a bowling average above 210. Mr. Cherry was also a top notch pool player, It took someone like Richie Florence or Buddy Hall to beat him at 9 ball.
Don made an appearence on the Johnny Carson Show in his glory years.
Johnny asked him why he excelled at everything he did.
He was a humble guy, but the conversation eventually got down to which game (or sport) he found the most challenging. I remember Don's answer almost verbatim, he said " Johnny, if you took a hundred kids' at their most formative years, (8 t0 12) and put them all with the best tutors in their respectve sports, when they reached maturity, you would probably have 15- 200 plus bowlers, and 5 or 10 scratch golfers, but you would be very lucky to come out with ONE top level pro pool player."
I rest my case.

Dick Mc Morran

PS At about 3 WPM typing speed, I trust you all realize how strongly I believe in my convictions. I am also not a "newbie" to pool. This comes from over 50 years of mud and blood in the trenches.

This is why most people don't excel in pool. Lack of instruction, or poor instruction is the leading cause for this. Most people do not have the natural ability to play pro speed. Teaching them to aim properly will help them overcome. To say that there is no aiming system is ludicrous. Aiming by feel is hit and miss due to perception flaws. Knowing how to connect the dots ahead of time will give the player a great advantage. Other variables such as deflection, skid, swerve can be compensated for by feel. But the aiming must be precise regardless of the conditions.

 

[pooltchr]

Overall, I would say that aiming is less than 25% of the game of pool, perhaps less. Stroke, cue ball control, and pattern play are just as important.

.

There are two things that can cause you to miss a shot. You can aim at the wrong place, or your cue ball delivery system (stroke) is flawed, and doesn't get the cue ball where you were aiming. If your aim is perfect, and your stroke is perfect, you should make the shot.
That being said, I think aiming accounts for more than 25%.

Steve

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The variables are infinate... humidity,table condition, squirt, swerve, pivot point, BHE,(two new ones on me) etc.
To think you can TEACH someone to adapt to all these variables is ludicrous.

I think aiming systems do teach you to adjust for these variables subconsciously (the way most players learn it anyway). You don't memorize theoretical angles; you memorize CB/OB alignments and the actual cut angles that result from them, including the effect of all these variables.

pj
chgo

 

[SJDinPHX]

This is why most people don't excel in pool. Lack of instruction, or poor instruction is the leading cause for this. Most people do not have the natural ability to play pro speed. Teaching them to aim properly will help them overcome. To say that there is no aiming system is ludicrous. Aiming by feel is hit and miss due to perception flaws. Knowing how to connect the dots ahead of time will give the player a great advantage. Other variables such as deflection, skid, swerve can be compensated for by feel. But the aiming must be precise regardless of the conditions.

Big C,

You are re-enforcing the point I am trying to make. There are simply too many variables. Aiming systems are great, if there is only ONE ball left on the table.(and you are not on angle to scratch.) Then you had better know how to control squirt, swerve, wet tables, and all those other gremlins.

Dick

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Systems are many, and many Systems work well. Best System is to work on Pocketing ONE BALL at a time in sucession, until GAME is WON.

 

[androd]

(Quote;SJD).
The variables are infinate... humidity,table condition, squirt, swerve, pivot point, BHE,(two new ones on me) etc.
To think you can TEACH someone to adapt to all these variables is ludicrous.
I will close my diatribe by offering a real gem of information.
Don Cherry was a singer/entertainer who headlined Las Vegas Casinos in the 60's. He had a number one hit, (Band of Gold)
He was also a PGA touring member. He could have been a PBA member too, because he carried a bowling average above 210. Mr. Cherry was also a top notch pool player, It took someone like Richie Florence or Buddy Hall to beat him at 9 ball.
Don made an appearence on the Johnny Carson Show in his glory years.
Johnny asked him why he excelled at everything he did.
He was a humble guy, but the conversation eventually got down to which game (or sport) he found the most challenging. I remember Don's answer almost verbatim, he said " Johnny, if you took a hundred kids' at their most formative years, (8 t0 12) and put them all with the best tutors in their respectve sports, when they reached maturity, you would probably have 15- 200 plus bowlers, and 5 or 10 scratch golfers, but you would be very lucky to come out with ONE top level pro pool player."
I rest my case.

Dick Mc Morran

PS At about 3 WPM typing speed, I trust you all realize how strongly I believe in my convictions. I am also not a "newbie" to pool. This comes from over 50 years of mud and blood in the trenches.[/QUOTE]

I agree with Don Cherry. In the 60's nobody taught pool or would tell you anything about how to play. Instructors are a newer thing. I agree with you that aiming systems are very confusing, particulary after muscle memory has been formed. I also never heard of swerve, squirt or pivot point until joining this site. I think engineering has very little to do with pocketing balls. I am open to new ideas and have tried many things i read on this site. lately i've found Freddys book the most helpful of any." bank on brother". You and I are still in agreement Dick.

 

[androd]

To all the well meaning protagonist of "aiming systems" (who have chosen to ignore my posts) I offer the following adviCe. (its not adviSe RonV.)

First, I would like to enter a link, which will explain further why I started this thread. refer to... http://forums.azbilliards.com//forumdisplay.php?f=6 see thread "Advise to Dr, Dave" post #1

To all the proponents of "aiming systems", I would like to offer the following adviCe (its not adviSe RonV)
I am quite sure none of these gentlemen are reliant on their "system's as their sole of income. Otherwise I would not have started this thread.
The "aiming system" threads usually number in the hundreds, and consist of the same group of guy's pleading their case, and calling each other idiots for not seeing their point of view. Few have ended amicably.
The reason is simple, there is NO SUCH THING as an aiming system !
The few top players who have subscribed to these "theories" would have become top players anyway (maybe sooner) without the training of one of these masters of engineering principles.
The game of pool is no different than any other sport requiring hand-eye co-ordination.
Golf, tennis, bowling, and even the contact sports, can benefit from the the teaching of coaches or trainers. But they can only teach fundimental techniques, and muscle memory. Beyond that, it is up to the individual (through love of the game) to reach their maximum potential.
Their are many qualified instructors, who can teach the basics of pool, such as, proper stance, bridge, stroke mechanics, etc. But the ones who subscribe to "aiming systems" will NOT get to teach my son or grandson.
I am sure Hal Houle, Dr. Dave, Colin, and RonV, are good guys who believe in their "engineering" principles as they relate to pool.
However, If you took the greats of our game, Ronnie Allen, Jersey Red, Keith,
Buddy, Richie, Ed Kelly and others, and tried to teach them an "aiming system" you would be laughed out of the poolroom.
The variables are infinate... humidity,table condition, squirt, swerve, pivot point, BHE,(two new ones on me) etc.
To think you can TEACH someone to adapt to all these variables is ludicrous.
I will close my diatribe by offering a real gem of information.
Don Cherry was a singer/entertainer who headlined Las Vegas Casinos in the 60's. He had a number one hit, (Band of Gold)
He was also a PGA touring member. He could have been a PBA member too, because he carried a bowling average above 210. Mr. Cherry was also a top notch pool player, It took someone like Richie Florence or Buddy Hall to beat him at 9 ball.
Don made an appearence on the Johnny Carson Show in his glory years.
Johnny asked him why he excelled at everything he did.
He was a humble guy, but the conversation eventually got down to which game (or sport) he found the most challenging. I remember Don's answer almost verbatim, he said " Johnny, if you took a hundred kids' at their most formative years, (8 t0 12) and put them all with the best tutors in their respectve sports, when they reached maturity, you would probably have 15- 200 plus bowlers, and 5 or 10 scratch golfers, but you would be very lucky to come out with ONE top level pro pool player."
I rest my case.

Dick Mc Morran

PS At about 3 WPM typing speed, I trust you all realize how strongly I believe in my convictions. I am also not a "newbie" to pool. This comes from over 50 years of mud and blood in the trenches.

I agree with Don Cherry. In the 60's nobody taught pool or would tell you anything about how to play. Instructors are a newer thing. I agree with you that aiming systems are very confusing, particulary after muscle memory has been formed. I also never heard of swerve, squirt or pivot point until joining this site. I think engineering has very little to do with pocketing balls. I am open to new ideas and have tried many things i read on this site. lately i've found Freddys book the most helpful of any." bank on brother". You and I are still in agreement Dick.

 

[Neil]

.............

 

[pdcue]

To all the well meaning protagonist of "aiming systems" (who have chosen to ignore my posts) I offer the following adviCe. (its not adviSe RonV.)

First, I would like to enter a link, which will explain further why I started this thread. refer to... http://forums.azbilliards.com//forumdisplay.php?f=6 see thread "Advise to Dr, Dave" post #1

To all the proponents of "aiming systems", I would like to offer the following adviCe (its not adviSe RonV)
I am quite sure none of these gentlemen are reliant on their "system's as their sole of income. Otherwise I would not have started this thread.
The "aiming system" threads usually number in the hundreds, and consist of the same group of guy's pleading their case, and calling each other idiots for not seeing their point of view. Few have ended amicably.
The reason is simple, there is NO SUCH THING as an aiming system !
The few top players who have subscribed to these "theories" would have become top players anyway (maybe sooner) without the training of one of these masters of engineering principles.
The game of pool is no different than any other sport requiring hand-eye co-ordination.
Golf, tennis, bowling, and even the contact sports, can benefit from the the teaching of coaches or trainers. But they can only teach fundimental techniques, and muscle memory. Beyond that, it is up to the individual (through love of the game) to reach their maximum potential.
Their are many qualified instructors, who can teach the basics of pool, such as, proper stance, bridge, stroke mechanics, etc. But the ones who subscribe to "aiming systems" will NOT get to teach my son or grandson.
I am sure Hal Houle, Dr. Dave, Colin, and RonV, are good guys who believe in their "engineering" principles as they relate to pool.
However, If you took the greats of our game, Ronnie Allen, Jersey Red, Keith,
Buddy, Richie, Ed Kelly and others, and tried to teach them an "aiming system" you would be laughed out of the poolroom.
The variables are infinate... humidity,table condition, squirt, swerve, pivot point, BHE,(two new ones on me) etc.
To think you can TEACH someone to adapt to all these variables is ludicrous.
I will close my diatribe by offering a real gem of information.
Don Cherry was a singer/entertainer who headlined Las Vegas Casinos in the 60's. He had a number one hit, (Band of Gold)
He was also a PGA touring member. He could have been a PBA member too, because he carried a bowling average above 210. Mr. Cherry was also a top notch pool player, It took someone like Richie Florence or Buddy Hall to beat him at 9 ball.
Don made an appearence on the Johnny Carson Show in his glory years.
Johnny asked him why he excelled at everything he did.
He was a humble guy, but the conversation eventually got down to which game (or sport) he found the most challenging. I remember Don's answer almost verbatim, he said " Johnny, if you took a hundred kids' at their most formative years, (8 t0 12) and put them all with the best tutors in their respectve sports, when they reached maturity, you would probably have 15- 200 plus bowlers, and 5 or 10 scratch golfers, but you would be very lucky to come out with ONE top level pro pool player."
I rest my case.

Dick Mc Morran

PS At about 3 WPM typing speed, I trust you all realize how strongly I believe in my convictions. I am also not a "newbie" to pool. This comes from over 50 years of mud and blood in the trenches.

Dick,

You make many good points - for the semantically obsessed, let me humbly
suggest the extenion('there is NO SUCH THING as an aiming system.)...

..."that is an adequate substitute for the detailed knowledge gained
by experience"...

In the sprit of full disclosure, let me say that I do not know Dick personally,
nor am I directly familiar with his game - however - it isn't hard by
inference from posters who do, to understand that the guy can flat play.
Play at a level that most would sell their soul to achieve.

With that said, let me relate a few points I have observed about
'good' players, both from my own experience, and from discussions
with players that range in speed from local shortstop to true worldbeater.

1. Most of what I've seen in 'systems' deal with determining where to aim
as if to imply that if you can calculate EXACTLY where to aim, the shot
becomes automatic.

Good shotmakers miss too, but they don't miss because of aim - they
miss because of execution - they know where to hit the OB.

2. Good shotmakers don't 'adjust' their aim from some theoretical
starting point.

Granted, there are a zillion factors that go into determining where you
must hit the OB, starting with where you want the CB to go and how
you will accomplish that position.<speed,spin, etc> Factoring in
playing conditions from humidity to how clean the cloth is. But, that
should all be determined before you ever bend over into your stance.

3. Aiming systems have their place - I started, as I'm sure many did,
with the old tried and true ' draw a line from the pocket thru the OB...'
It got me started... but it also held me back till realied it was only
the tip of the iceberg.

IMHO - systems can be helpful for teaching beginers - some even for
more anvanced players - but - there ain't no silver bulett.

Dale

 

[JB Cases]

I, for one, am glad to see top level players weighing in on the subject and WISH that they had done it much sooner. We have top level players here like you and Shawn Putnam, Danny Harriman, John Schmidt and Corey Harper, and others.

The thing is that you are aware that most people on this site want to be better players. So we try to find what works.

Instead of going over the validity, claims, counter-claims, and so on I just have some questions for you that only top players can answer.

1. When you aim how do you do it?

2. If you can remember back to when you began learning this game were you taught how to aim? If so what did they teach you?

3. Do you use anything that could be described as Back Hand English (pivoting the back hand to hit the cueball off center)?

4. Do all professional class players aim the same way?

5. How do you teach a player to aim?

Thank you in advance for any time you choose to spend answering these questions. And for the pros on this board it would really help us fans if you would also take the time to answer them as well if you could.

Appreciatively,

John Barton

 

[PKM]

I, for one, am glad to see top level players weighing in on the subject and WISH that they had done it much sooner. We have top level players here like you and Shawn Putnam, Danny Harriman, John Schmidt and Corey Harper, and others.

The thing is that you are aware that most people on this site want to be better players. So we try to find what works.

Instead of going over the validity, claims, counter-claims, and so on I just have some questions for you that only top players can answer.

1. When you aim how do you do it?

2. If you can remember back to when you began learning this game were you taught how to aim? If so what did they teach you?

3. Do you use anything that could be described as Back Hand English (pivoting the back hand to hit the cueball off center)?

4. Do all professional class players aim the same way?

5. How do you teach a player to aim?

Thank you in advance for any time you choose to spend answering these questions. And for the pros on this board it would really help us fans if you would also take the time to answer them as well if you could.

Appreciatively,

John Barton

Good questions, I'm not sure how many responses you'll get, but I suggest starting a new thread for those

 

[Big C]

Having good hand-eye coordination in football, baseball, basketball, golf, archery, darts, tiddly winks, or any other of those sports does not mean you will be a good shot maker in pool. In those sports you only have to hit one target. In pool you have to target the spot on the CB with the tip, the CP on the CB to the OB and the line the OB needs to travel to go in the pocket. Not to mention the position the CB needs to be in to pocket the next ball. It all begins with the eyes. You survey the table to make a plan. Then you look at the shot you need to shoot while standing behind the cue ball. Most people look at a spot on the OB that they believe they need to hit with the CB to make it go into the pocket. But how do you know what part of the CB to use to make the OB go where you want it to go? Most people just stand behind the CB and guesstimate and try to feel the shot. I'm pretty sure I have used most of the aiming systems out there. Most recently Ron V's system and now Joe Tucker's. For me, Joe T's system works the best. I used to try and hit the CP on the CB and on a good day it would work fine. But then there are those days where I just couldn't rely on it for whatever reason. Now that I know how to find the CP on the CB and line it up with the CP on the OB, my ball pocketing has become more predictable and consistent. I'm shooting shots now that I would have played safe on before. Sure you have to have a straight and repeatable stroke. But unless you know the answer to pocketing the ball, I don't care if you can stroke like Buddy Hall. You miss and you are no longer in control. What a terrible feeling that is. There's no use in having a straight and repeatable stroke while sitting in your chair watching the other guy run out. Learn how to aim to give your brain the information it needs. Otherwise your eyes will be darting trying to find the answer. That leads to last second compensations due to the pain of missing.

 

[SJDinPHX]

I, for one, am glad to see top level players weighing in on the subject and WISH that they had done it much sooner. We have top level players here like you and Shawn Putnam, Danny Harriman, John Schmidt and Corey Harper, and others.

The thing is that you are aware that most people on this site want to be better players. So we try to find what works.

Instead of going over the validity, claims, counter-claims, and so on I just have some questions for you that only top players can answer.

1. When you aim how do you do it?

2. If you can remember back to when you began learning this game were you taught how to aim? If so what did they teach you? [QUOTE/]

JB and others,

I do not profess to have all the answers to what makes the difference between a great player and/or a great shotmaker. I myself, was only a fair shotmaker in my prime. I was merely trying to point out, how little relevence something called an "aiming system" really has on any game of pool.
My take is, NO ONE can teach a guy how to aim, anymore than you can teach Tiger Woods how much break to allow on a given putt.
Pool is NOT A MECHANICAL SCIENCE, and anyone who tries to convince me that it is, is wasting their breath. Yes you can help a novice to improve his game, just as you can teach your son to shoot a rifle.
You can show him how to hold the gun, and be steady, and to squeeze the trigger, but you CANNOT show him how to hit the tin can. That comes from a lot of misses, and a lot of frustration, UNLESS he's a natural at it.
I don't say these things to discourage people who want to learn the game we all love. I'm only trying to explain my thoughts on what it takes to become a
top notch player. And it doesn't begin with engineering principles. It begins with learning the basics and practicing those basics until you become the best player YOU can be.

Dick

 

[Da Bank]

all I know is, I was taught the aiming system that CJ Wiley uses by Doug Smith after a 4 hour coaching session with him and my game has improved almost 2 balls in a month.

To claim that there are no aiming systems, when people teach and develop the systems is just not looking at reality... there are aiming systems. If you don't think they work, that's a different story and those arguments will be purely based on an individual basis.

When i'm in stroke and have a great feel for the table, I am very confident that I don't need to use the aiming system on 90% of my shots... and if my position play is right, I don't ever have to use an aiming system. When i start missing or come up to a shot that makes me pause... I go to the aiming system to give me an extra step of confidence.

 

[swrooster]

Aim Thru the Ghost Ball

The basic function of any aiming system or stroke is to deliver the CB to the ghost ball position against the OB. Aiming and pre shot routine should compliment each other. A good look and your brain will automatically transfer to your muscles the amount of force, spin, etc to be used along with where to pinpoint the tip placement on the CB to achieve the desired results. Your cue must continue down the line for a full follow through. My aiming consists of looking down the shaft on the outside or inside line, thru the ghost ball position, then stroking the cue down that line. I get in trouble when I overthink the process. Just put your actions on auto-pilot your wonderful melon will apply all that you have learned and practiced as long as you stay down and keep your cue level.