Aiming Systems...my take !!!

[JB Cases]

Systems as teaching tools have a practical application. Obviously, everyone learns EVERYTHING through some sort of system.

I doubt the runners are thinking of their systems while competing. If they are, I somehow find it difficult to believe that they are winning. The phrase "Paralysis by Analysis" comes to mind.

I agree with the exception that sometimes people do in fact have a "mantra" that they focus on. Athletes talk about what they use to help them stay in the moment and get in the zone and many attribute focusing on some basic technique or system.

When I play my very best I don't think, I do. When I am warming up or not quite "there yet" in the zone I will use a system to double check my line. As the match goes on I get looser and looser and find myself slipping into the zone.

When I am tight I tell myself, stay down, be calm, focus, and so on. When I am loose it's all automatic.

 

[Gerry]

I think Dick is right!

here's my thoughts on systems....I think they came about as a way for a newby to learn the game from an accomplished player. How else can you explain how to pocket a ball to a newby? You tell em to hit 1/2 the ball or 1/4 of the ball. Besides that, I don't use them except for the diamond systems.

I think the best use of AS are to give a newer player something to fall back on when in doubt.

I firmly believe you just have to go out and hit a few hundred thousand balls to learn. I just read an article in Golf magazine that stated you must repeat a new swing movement at least 3000 to 5000 times before it becomes ingrained, and thats just a small change....not learning the game itself.

I am lucky enough to be blessed with excellent hand eye coordination, which I feel is why I play well....god knows it's not from good fundamentals that and I love practicing.

Like Don Cherry, I learned the game as a 7 year old kid in our basement with no instruction. I also carried a 212 bowling average through high school, played #1 singles on the tennis team, and carried a 6 handicap on the golf team. How can a 40 pound overweight kid who is only 5'6" play all these sports so well without being blessed in some way?.........you can't, there wasn't enough time to learn all those games without having a born in advantage IMO.

example...last month I played my first round of golf in 5 years and finished 7 over par. For those who don't know thats like not hitting a ball for 5 years and running 100 your first time back. I"m mental with games like pool, golf etc....anything where I can practice by myself and learn.

 

[SJDinPHX]

I think Dick is right!

here's my thoughts on systems....I think they came about as a way for a newby to learn the game from an accomplished player. How else can you explain how to pocket a ball to a newby? You tell em to hit 1/2 the ball or 1/4 of the ball. Besides that, I don't use them except for the diamond systems.

I think the best use of AS are to give a newer player something to fall back on when in doubt.

I firmly believe you just have to go out and hit a few hundred thousand balls to learn. I just read an article in Golf magazine that stated you must repeat a new swing movement at least 3000 to 5000 times before it becomes ingrained, and thats just a small change....not learning the game itself.

I am lucky enough to be blessed with excellent hand eye coordination, which I feel is why I play well....god knows it's not from good fundamentals that and I love practicing.

Like Don Cherry, I learned the game as a 7 year old kid in our basement with no instruction. I also carried a 212 bowling average through high school, played #1 singles on the tennis team, and carried a 6 handicap on the golf team. How can a 40 pound overweight kid who is only 5'6" play all these sports so well without being blessed in some way?.........you can't, there wasn't enough time to learn all those games without having a born in advantage IMO.

example...last month I played my first round of golf in 5 years and finished 7 over par. For those who don't know thats like not hitting a ball for 5 years and running 100 your first time back. I"m mental with games like pool, golf etc....anything where I can practice by myself and learn.

Gerry,

Please see my last post on the Dr.Dave/RonV thread. Its great to see there are other "normal" guy's out there.

Dick

 

[randyg]

I'm not asking for any secrets or magic bullets. I would just like to know what goes on in your head. What you are visualizing and thinking. I started playing pool as a child and I can remember trying to hit the CP on the OB without anyone ever teaching me. I just picked the cue up and started playing and it was instinctive. Missing shots made me mad because I couldn't figure out why I would miss the shot even though it looked like it would go in. Some days I could make 'em from anywhere and other days it was a struggle. So, being the tinkerer that I am, I sought knowledge from people and books and learned several different aiming methods. I finally realized that I had already been using them before I knew what they were called and that made me even more frustrated because I thought if I already had the answers, how could I still miss? So I turned to a teacher, Randy G and he showed me what I didn't know. Proper mechanics, pre-shot routines, self diagnostics and another form of aiming calls S.A.M. With all this new information and mechanics my game took a step back. But I had faith and I stuck to the drills and practicing my mechanics and stroke and things started to click. But there was still something that was not right and I thanks to Joe Tucker I found out what it was. My perception was flawed. The effects of that was causing my cue stick to look like it is pointing where it was not. Does that make sense? The technical term for it is parallax error which means that I was getting too much information from my right eye and not enough from my left. Joe's training aids forced me to properly sight down the cue so that it is in line with my aim. Now that my perception was better I had to relearn how to aim. Since Joe was able to help my perception I also tried his aiming method and it is working out quite well. It's not a magic bullet, but it is a very reliable method to find the right line to make the CP's on the CB/OB match up to make the ball. Am I finished learning? No sir! I want my aiming to become second nature. That's why seek out information from people on this forum and I try to share what little I have to contribute. Haven't you ever watched someone play that you admired and wished that you could know what it was that they were thinking about?

TAP-TAP-TAP......SPF=randyg

 

[ironman]

I agree with Don Cherry. In the 60's nobody taught pool or would tell you anything about how to play. Instructors are a newer thing. I agree with you that aiming systems are very confusing, particulary after muscle memory has been formed. I also never heard of swerve, squirt or pivot point until joining this site. I think engineering has very little to do with pocketing balls. I am open to new ideas and have tried many things i read on this site. lately i've found Freddys book the most helpful of any." bank on brother". You and I are still in agreement Dick.

Just in case nobody here really understands, this is a pretty good endorsement of what Dick was talking about. They only have about 100-120 years experience between them.

 

[Snorks]

I'm not asking for any secrets or magic bullets. I would just like to know what goes on in your head. What you are visualizing and thinking. I started playing pool as a child and I can remember trying to hit the CP on the OB without anyone ever teaching me. I just picked the cue up and started playing and it was instinctive. Missing shots made me mad because I couldn't figure out why I would miss the shot even though it looked like it would go in. Some days I could make 'em from anywhere and other days it was a struggle. So, being the tinkerer that I am, I sought knowledge from people and books and learned several different aiming methods. I finally realized that I had already been using them before I knew what they were called and that made me even more frustrated because I thought if I already had the answers, how could I still miss? So I turned to a teacher, Randy G and he showed me what I didn't know. Proper mechanics, pre-shot routines, self diagnostics and another form of aiming calls S.A.M. With all this new information and mechanics my game took a step back. But I had faith and I stuck to the drills and practicing my mechanics and stroke and things started to click. But there was still something that was not right and I thanks to Joe Tucker I found out what it was. My perception was flawed. The effects of that was causing my cue stick to look like it is pointing where it was not. Does that make sense? The technical term for it is parallax error which means that I was getting too much information from my right eye and not enough from my left. Joe's training aids forced me to properly sight down the cue so that it is in line with my aim. Now that my perception was better I had to relearn how to aim. Since Joe was able to help my perception I also tried his aiming method and it is working out quite well. It's not a magic bullet, but it is a very reliable method to find the right line to make the CP's on the CB/OB match up to make the ball. Am I finished learning? No sir! I want my aiming to become second nature. That's why seek out information from people on this forum and I try to share what little I have to contribute. Haven't you ever watched someone play that you admired and wished that you could know what it was that they were thinking about?

Funny, this is exactly the same path I'm following I took lessons from Scott Lee and learned a tremendous amount about fundamentals, PEP, SAM, pre-shot, and my stroke. I'm off to Rhode Island this weekend to have a couple of days of lesson's with Joe for more stuff . I have been going through Joe's Aiming System, and comparing it to SAM. I have found I'm using both. Comparing each system to each other and reconfirming where to hit the OB.

So, to make my post at least a little bit on topic, I think Aiming Systems definitely help with the contact point. Do I use it everytime .. Nope... but when I don't, the opponent seems to shoot more often I personally will go back to SAM when I'm struggling a bit. I treat it like a crutch to help me get going again when I'm not shooting well.

 

[rctx75]

practice vs aiming systems

Imo take the guy who says he is looking for that one thing thats going to make him a great player. And he cant understand that that 15 yr old kid beat him in a tourney and he has been playing for 20 yrs its got to be something . Yes it is the time you put in that 15 yr old kid has practiced more in 3yrs than you have in 20 . Here is what it take it takes talent dont get me wrong I was fortunate to grow up with some great players , Dee Adkins, Corey Duell , Chris Bartrum It takes practice, practice , gamble, practice gamble , tourneys , and more practice. Corey used to practice 10 hrs a day untill people put the time in that the top level players have put in youll never know if you could have been a great player . Its like that in any sport take Tiger you think he hasnt put the time in he only started when he was 3 and works harder than anyone on tour not saying anyone could have become tiger but even tiger dont win everytime so what I am saying you have to logg the time in 10hrs a day for 4 yrs then tell me how you are playing not saying you will be the us open champion but I guarantee you will beat some great players

 

[Mowem down]

round and round and round we go, where it will stop knowbody knows

 

[JB Cases]

Imo take the guy who says he is looking for that one thing thats going to make him a great player. And he cant understand that that 15 yr old kid beat him in a tourney and he has been playing for 20 yrs its got to be something . Yes it is the time you put in that 15 yr old kid has practiced more in 3yrs than you have in 20 . Here is what it take it takes talent dont get me wrong I was fortunate to grow up with some great players , Dee Adkins, Corey Duell , Chris Bartrum It takes practice, practice , gamble, practice gamble , tourneys , and more practice. Corey used to practice 10 hrs a day untill people put the time in that the top level players have put in youll never know if you could have been a great player . Its like that in any sport take Tiger you think he hasnt put the time in he only started when he was 3 and works harder than anyone on tour not saying anyone could have become tiger but even tiger dont win everytime so what I am saying you have to logg the time in 10hrs a day for 4 yrs then tell me how you are playing not saying you will be the us open champion but I guarantee you will beat some great players

Exactly. And if someone can show you something that can take months or years off the learning curve then you can spend WAY more time learning other things like speed control, caroms, banks, tickies, breaking techniques.

None of these aiming techniques are magic bullets - they are guides and tools that's all. Jimmy Reid has a million systems and no one knocks him.

Jimmy was a bonafide top notcher in his day. He says he uses all kinds of systems in his game. David Matlock knows more kicking systems than anyone else on Earth.

Put in the time and use whatever tools you can get to improve and at some point it all gels and feels natural.

 

[DRW]

systems

What "walking system" do you guys use to walk around? Do you have a "running system" for when you need to go faster? How about to avoid obstacles? You probably need a system for that, right?

Seriously, running at top speed through any series of obstacles must take far more coordination than pocketing a ball on a pool table, so I'm wondering if there's a system for that since, after all, your body's ability to collaborate with your brain and make tiny micro-adjustments just isn't that accurate, so you must need SOME sort of system for that, right?

How about an eating system? Do you guys use one of those? It takes an awful lot of coordination to unconsciously pick up your fork, stab your prey, and stick it in your mouth, right? I'm wondering where I can learn about the "half fork system".

Oh well. I'm about to use the "get my ass out of my chair" system and go hit some balls before I go to sleep. G'night all.

After Jimmie's very important question on systems, I need one for cleaning coffee out of my key board and computer speakers. Any help would be very appreciated. Jimmy makes me laugh!:smile:

 

[SJDinPHX]

What "walking system" do you guys use to walk around? Do you have a "running system" for when you need to go faster? How about to avoid obstacles? You probably need a system for that, right?

Seriously, running at top speed through any series of obstacles must take far more coordination than pocketing a ball on a pool table, so I'm wondering if there's a system for that since, after all, your body's ability to collaborate with your brain and make tiny micro-adjustments just isn't that accurate, so you must need SOME sort of system for that, right?

How about an eating system? Do you guys use one of those? It takes an awful lot of coordination to unconsciously pick up your fork, stab your prey, and stick it in your mouth, right? I'm wondering where I can learn about the "half fork system".

Oh well. I'm about to use the "get my ass out of my chair" system and go hit some balls before I go to sleep. G'night all.

Hilarious, did all that come from your warped "systemless" brain.
Also, I must ask, what system were you on last time you dogged a ball ?
I was using the "open mouth, insert Yukon Jack system" (it doesn't work either)

Dick

 

[Jimmy M.]

I was using the "open mouth, insert Yukon Jack system" (it doesn't work either)

Dick

Haha. That system might help me. Maybe I'll try it this weekend!

 

[ironman]

Hilarious, did all that come from your warped "systemless" brain.
Also, I must ask, what system were you on last time you dogged a ball ?
I was using the "open mouth, insert Yukon Jack system" (it doesn't work either)

Dick

It's kind of funny, but the best I played in the past 8 years since I started playing again was in Beaumont Tx. It was a tournament and it suddenly hit me late Sunday, I hadn't missed a ball all day. I won that match convincingly and on the hill made an incredible shot that surprised me more than anyone in the building.

My partner asked me later about the shot and asked what side of the pocket I aimed for and I said I didn't remember and he looked shocked and said what do you mean. I said, "Hell, I don't rmember even looking at the ball, I just knew it would go".

I have always been a sucriber to the dead reconing theory. I reckon if I put this onit it''ll end up about here. If I hit this here, I reckon it'll go in.

Same with making love, I reckon.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Just because you know some system, ain't going to make you Efrin.

 

[Pii]

This is why most people don't excel in pool. Lack of instruction, or poor instruction is the leading cause for this. Most people do not have the natural ability to play pro speed. Teaching them to aim properly will help them overcome. To say that there is no aiming system is ludicrous. Aiming by feel is hit and miss due to perception flaws. Knowing how to connect the dots ahead of time will give the player a great advantage. Other variables such as deflection, skid, swerve can be compensated for by feel. But the aiming must be precise regardless of the conditions.

What "perception flaws"? Aiming systems don't work IMO due to (like the op suggested) all the variables in the game not to mention none work on all shots period. So in the end anyone using a system either misses shots or has to correct their aim by feel. I've never seen even one system that accounts for any of the many variables in the game.

You'd be better off picking up a Zen book and learning to trust yourself than an aiming system IMO.

 

[androd]

Hilarious, did all that come from your warped "systemless" brain.
Also, I must ask, what system were you on last time you dogged a ball ?
I was using the "open mouth, insert Yukon Jack system" (it doesn't work either)

Dick

The "Open Mouth insert Yukon Jack" system works much better after dogging a ball !
PS; although I said the systems were confusing after muscle memory is formed, I believe they can be a help to VERY new players wanting to learn. they will still have to become intutive and fall back on instinct.

 

[SJDinPHX]

" the Y.K. System "

The "Open Mouth insert Yukon Jack" system works much better after dogging a ball !
PS; although I said the systems were confusing after muscle memory is formed, I believe they can be a help to VERY new players wanting to learn. they will still have to become intutive and fall back on instinct.

Rod I have tried both the before, and after dogging "Y.K. System", both with varying results. It seems when I get to the "Take a drink everytime I miss" system, at least i have a good time while I'm going off. :wink:

Dick

 

[vagabond]

My 'Red Neck Aiming system' is very effective.

 

[Big C]

What "perception flaws"? Aiming systems don't work IMO due to (like the op suggested) all the variables in the game not to mention none work on all shots period. So in the end anyone using a system either misses shots or has to correct their aim by feel. I've never seen even one system that accounts for any of the many variables in the game.

You'd be better off picking up a Zen book and learning to trust yourself than an aiming system IMO.

I don't need a book for that. Do you believe everything you read? If you don't know what a "perception flaw" is, then you don't know what you don't know. Zen up on that! :wink:

 

[Big C]

Just because you know some system, ain't going to make you Efrin.

Maybe, but good luck gettin' there without one Cowboy. :wink: