Aiming Systems - The End Justifies the Means

[ENGLISH!]

The good news is it's actually simple, RJ....if I listened to this complicated "spin" I wouldn't be able to run a rack...LOL :bash: :groucho:

I hear you! Paralysis by analysis can be an extremely deadly virus. Just do what you 'know' you can do & to hell with the whys & wherefores.

Unless...your trying to convey it to intellectuals & even then the attempt very well could be futile as they have no idea how a pool cue can become part of your arm & do exactly what your 'mind' tells it to do, to make solid balls do what you tell them to do.

Again, I hear you!
RJ

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Is it possible obsessing about the physics can hurt?

What do you mean by "obsessing"? Does talking about the physical aspects of pool on a pool discussion forum qualify?

Does knowing the physics help?

Without a doubt. It won't make you better by itself, but it's definitely a positive addition to your learning process.

Not knowing the physics hurt?

Only in the sense that you might miss an opportunity to learn more about what you're trying to do.

Knowing the physics is fun for people who are into that kind of thing. I am one of those people. I also like freeing my mind of the physics and how it seems to improve my game. Trying a technique on the table, watching it work in action. Sometimes the physics explanation is obvious, other times it is not. I used have a need to know and understand the physics. Not so much anymore and coincidence or not, my game has improved.

You didn't stop playing/practicing, did you?

Curious about current and past top level players. How many of them are considered feel players vs. technical science type players?

What's the difference? How do you know if you see one or the other playing?

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The good news is it's actually simple, RJ....if I listened to this complicated "spin" I wouldn't be able to run a rack...LOL :bash: :groucho:

Fortunately for the rest of us, some can understand spin and use it effectively. Go figure.

pj
chgo

 

[JB Cases]

The results of that test actually confirmed (again) the basic principle (not a theory) that balls bank shorter if they're sliding at impact with the rail. The test showed the additional fact that hard hit sliding balls bank a little longer than slower sliding balls - but in both cases they bank shorter than rolling balls, consistent with the existing principle.

"Science" (i.e., actual measurement as opposed to common pool mythology) simply revealed more detail about reality, as usual. Of course, knowing what causes what is "too much information" for some, so I recommend caution.

pj
chgo

P.S. It's worth pointing out that if something surprising had been revealed by this test, it would have been "science" that revealed it, as usual.

Please link to the video because I have this memory that there was something that was surprising in the findings.

You seem to have this idea that I am against science here. I am not. I just think that there are techniques used to play pool which do not require a scientific explanation to be effective. Furthermore I think that there IS such a thing as information overload. I see it all time if I go into detail about tanning methods when someone is trying to decide on what leather they should pick. They don't need to know the history of leather in order to decide on a texture and color.

 

[swest]

I hear you! Paralysis by analysis can be an extremely deadly virus. Just do what you 'know' you can do & to hell with the whys & wherefores.

Unless...your trying to convey it to intellectuals & even then the attempt very well could be futile as they have no idea how a pool cue can become part of your arm & do exactly what your 'mind' tells it to do, to make solid balls do what you tell them to do.

Again, I hear you!
RJ

No, no, no. It's not about being intellectual, at all.

If I know and understand the physics behind the stop shot, for example. And, if I train myself in performing the stop shot correctly, based on those principles, then when I am presented with a new shot that I haven't seen before, I can extrapolate those principles and give my subconscious a new plan to execute.

No one, especially me, is suggesting that the conscious mind is making these analyses while executing a shot. But, if the conscious mind doesn't have the knowledge, it can't ask the subconscious for a delivered product, because it doesn't know what to ask for...

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Please link to the video because I have this memory that there was something that was surprising in the findings.

You can probably find it on Dave's website. What they found was that the OB, when hit harder, compresses the rail farther and moves farther along it before rebounding completely. Not particularly surprising, just not previously revealed/confirmed by testing. The difference in outcome was only a few inches for a cross-table bank at about 45 degrees.

I just think that there are techniques used to play pool which do not require a scientific explanation to be effective.

Hardly any of them do. But hardly any of them can't benefit from more understanding. Like you often say about aiming systems, the learning path can be shorter. And what is learned can be clearer, more in-depth and more broadly applicable.

Furthermore I think that there IS such a thing as information overload.

My sympathies, but that's not everybody's problem.

pj
chgo

 

[Slide Rule]

Pre Stroke Twist

What I'm talking about happens at the moment of impact. It either amplifies or counteracts the natural effects of the cue. Can you explain what you mean by twisting it before your stroke, I'm not following what that does if it's not happening at impact.

Say you are shooting a center ball shot. Without twisting the wrist before the stroke, your stick goes through the cue ball initiating the normal action.

If you twist the wrist slightly before, you are reflecting that changed position of the wrist to the contact on the cue ball. The change in, or offset from, the normal position is reflected to the tip.

If you have a pure straight stroke, then you offset the starting point by using a nonstandard hand grip, the stroke will be curved with the resulting reduced size change of your hand movement mapped effectively at the cue tip similar to a three dimensional pantograph. The general effect could be seen by experimenting with a laser light on the shaft.

I was a non believer until trying a specific Wrist Rotation drill. This drill teaches what it takes to keep the cue ball on the rail. Object and cue balls frozen to end rail about a diamond apart. Make the ball in the corner while keeping the cue ball in contact with rail throughout its travel.

If the rail is on the left use counterclockwise knuckle rotation of about 5° or 10°, and if the rail is on the right use clockwise rotation. Rotate the wrist before stroking. You pocket the object ball, while maintaining the cue ball on the rail throughout its travel.

The useful part of this drill is not keeping your cue ball on the end rail. The useful part is that the opposite rotation will move the cue substantially away from the rail. There are times when you on the end rail and need to move it away for an easier shot? This concept will do the job.

The pre stoke twist will also provide another effective tip of english in those very tight circumstances or when significantly more english than can be reasonably applied.

I was introduced to this thinking by an old and now departed friend. He used a number of wrist changes to accomplish cue action that were effectively hidden from an observer.


We are all indebted to you for your precious bit of information in the other thread. This is also a superior method of moving off the rail.

 

[dr_dave]

Many people have found that they have greater success using "unique & personal" techniques that match their particular body mechanics. While traditional methods might be able to accomplish the same thing; for these particular individuals, this is not so.

Joey,

Sometimes "unique and personal" techniques are simply "habits" (sometimes bad) that one has developed naturally over many, many years of practice and experience. With enough consistent practice, any technique can be "mastered," regardless of how "unique and personal" it might be.

Again, I am sorry if my video offended you or others. That was not the intent.

I would be the first to utilize cue twist in my game, dedicate practice time to it, and suggest it to others, if I thought it offered potential benefits to me or others with certain types of shots.

I would still like to hear about the types of shots for which you or others think the technique is appropriate, helpful, or even necessary. Maybe we can learn from the examples and better understand what (if any) benefits the technique might be offering to the people who use it effectively.

Also, If there is in fact some "body mechanics" issue that would require a person to use cue twisting instead of a more-traditional stroke, I would certainly be curious to learn more.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

If I know and understand the physics behind the stop shot, for example. And, if I train myself in performing the stop shot correctly, based on those principles, then when I am presented with a new shot that I haven't seen before, I can extrapolate those principles and give my subconscious a new plan to execute.

No one, especially me, is suggesting that the conscious mind is making these analyses while executing a shot. But, if the conscious mind doesn't have the knowledge, it can't ask the subconscious for a delivered product, because it doesn't know what to ask for...

Nice explanation. The part in blue needs to be emphasized. Knowing how things happen doesn't mean you need to have a slide rule on the rail while playing - of course the idea is to internalize knowledge so your autopilot has better "maps" to follow during play. Fear of "analysis paralysis" is a misunderstanding that might keep you from learning something useful if you let it.

pj <- do they still make slide rules?
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

Mike,

Perhaps a clarification of 'twist' & 'twisting' is in order. I have seen several uses of the term here with what I deem to be different meanings. Also, the timing of the 'twist', before or during (at impact).

CJ has said clockwise & counter CW at impact.

Someone said twisting before the stroke, I do not understand how that imparts 'twisting' spin unless it is used as a form of backhand english which would be different to what CJ is referring, I believe.

I'm just trying to point out that this 'twisting' discussion has hit a fork in the road & appears to have perhaps gone in different directions of two(2) different concepts.

Just trying to clarify,
RJ aka Rick

Yeah, I was just talking about using a "corkscrew" method, or "drill" type method of going through the center of the ball ...then you can cue it off center without spinning it.....or spin it more (which I DO NOT recommend). It's a "slight of cue" method is what we always called it....old timers call it "wrist rolling" I hear.

 

[dr_dave]

The results of that test actually confirmed (again) the basic principle (not a theory) that balls bank shorter if they're sliding at impact with the rail. The test showed the additional fact that hard hit sliding balls bank a little longer than slower sliding balls - but in both cases they bank shorter than rolling balls, consistent with the existing principle.

"Science" (i.e., actual measurement as opposed to common pool mythology) simply revealed more detail about reality, as usual. Of course, knowing what causes what is "too much information" for some, so I recommend caution.

Please link to the video because I have this memory that there was something that was surprising in the findings.

John,

I posted the links earlier in the thread. Here they are again:

Here are two pertinent videos from my bank and kick effects resource page:

HSV B.41 - bank speed effects, with Bob Jewett
NV B.95 - Post-rebound spin, angle, and curve for stunned kicks and banks​

Regards,
Dave

 

[CJ Wiley]

Say you are shooting a center ball shot. Without twisting the wrist before the stroke, your stick goes through the cue ball initiating the normal action.

If you twist the wrist slightly before, you are reflecting that changed position of the wrist to the contact on the cue ball. The change in, or offset from, the normal position is reflected to the tip.

If you have a pure straight stroke, then you offset the starting point by using a nonstandard hand grip, the stroke will be curved with the resulting reduced size change of your hand movement mapped effectively at the cue tip similar to a three dimensional pantograph. The general effect could be seen by experimenting with a laser light on the shaft.

I was a non believer until trying a specific Wrist Rotation drill. This drill teaches what it takes to keep the cue ball on the rail. Object and cue balls frozen to end rail about a diamond apart. Make the ball in the corner while keeping the cue ball in contact with rail throughout its travel.

If the rail is on the left use counterclockwise knuckle rotation of about 5° or 10°, and if the rail is on the right use clockwise rotation. Rotate the wrist before stroking. You pocket the object ball, while maintaining the cue ball on the rail throughout its travel.

The useful part of this drill is not keeping your cue ball on the end rail. The useful part is that the opposite rotation will move the cue substantially away from the rail. There are times when you on the end rail and need to move it away for an easier shot? This concept will do the job.

The pre stoke twist will also provide another effective tip of english in those very tight circumstances or when significantly more english than can be reasonably applied.

I was introduced to this thinking by an old and now departed friend. He used a number of wrist changes to accomplish cue action that were effectively hidden from an observer.


We are all indebted to you for your precious bit of information in the other thread. This is also a superior method of moving off the rail.

I understand and clear, thanks

 

[Slide Rule]

I understand and clear, thanks

After you experiment with this, I would appreciate hearing you
comments.

Thanks again.

 

[JB Cases]

You can probably find it on Dave's website. What they found was that the OB, when hit harder, compresses the rail farther and moves farther along it before rebounding completely. Not particularly surprising, just not previously revealed/confirmed by testing. The difference in outcome was only a few inches for a cross-table bank at about 45 degrees.

Not motivated enough to look for it and I guess Dave isn't motivated enough to share the link

Hardly any of them do. But hardly any of them can't benefit from more understanding. Like you often say about aiming systems, the learning path can be shorter. And what is learned can be clearer, more in-depth and more broadly applicable.

Well that's why we have you and several others to clear things up.

You are the science yin to the experience yang.

My sympathies, but that's not everybody's problem.

pj
chgo

Is that an insult? Numerous studies have shown that too much information leads to indecision and less effective results. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_overload

On the other hand simple imitation of technique has been shown to produce champions and world class performers as well as allowing rank beginners to show decent form withing 30 minutes on the tennis court.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I was just talking about using a "corkscrew" method, or "drill" type method of going through the center of the ball ...then you can cue it off center without spinning it...

Maybe you're creating a different center* by changing the effective angle of attack?

[*What I mean by "center" is a line through the cue ball's center in the direction it will travel. I believe hitting the CB anywhere except along that line will create sidespin.]

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

You can probably find it on Dave's website. What they found was that the OB, when hit harder, compresses the rail farther and moves farther along it before rebounding completely. Not particularly surprising, just not previously revealed/confirmed by testing. The difference in outcome was only a few inches for a cross-table bank at about 45 degrees.

Not motivated enough to look for it and I guess Dave isn't motivated enough to share the link

John,

I posted the links earlier in the thread ... twice! Here they are again: :grin-square:

Here are two pertinent videos from my bank and kick effects resource page:

HSV B.41 - bank speed effects, with Bob Jewett
NV B.95 - Post-rebound spin, angle, and curve for stunned kicks and banks​

Regards,
Dave

 

[JoeyA]

Joey,

Sometimes "unique and personal" techniques are simply "habits" (sometimes bad) that one has developed naturally over many, many years of practice and experience. With enough consistent practice, any technique can be "mastered," regardless of how "unique and personal" it might be.

Again, I am sorry if my video offended you or others. That was not the intent.

I would be the first to utilize cue twist in my game, dedicate practice time to it, and suggest it to others, if I thought it offered potential benefits to me or others with certain types of shots.

I would still like to hear about the types of shots for which you or others think the technique is appropriate, helpful, or even necessary. Maybe we can learn from the examples and better understand what (if any) benefits the technique might be offering to the people who use it effectively.

Also, If there is in fact some "body mechanics" issue that would require a person to use cue twisting instead of a more-traditional stroke, I would certainly be curious to learn more.

Thanks,
Dave

Dave,
Sometimes unique and personal techniques are "simply" the result of constructive hard work at the table and NOT BAD HABITS AT ALL,(sometimes it is called R & D by the academics, but apparently not always).

Some of these unique techniques can be utilized effectively in a SHORT period of time.

Mike Davis's shoulder rotation and elbow drop is one of the marvelous innovations by a pool player.

If you want to learn how to play pool using unique and advanced techniques, you need to get out more. :grin:

 

[stan shuffett]

Dave,
Sometimes unique and personal techniques are "simply" the result of constructive hard work at the table and NOT BAD HABITS AT ALL,(sometimes it is called R & D by the academics, but apparently not always).

Some of these unique techniques can be utilized effectively in a SHORT period of time.

Mike Davis's shoulder rotation and elbow drop is one of the marvelous innovations by a pool player.

If you want to learn how to play pool using unique and advanced techniques, you need to get out more. :grin:

Joey,

I first learned about the wrist twist from Johnny Holiday and then more about the same technique from Don Fenney. And lastly, Truman Hogue put the icing on the cake.

I can not even remotely imagine limiting my stroke through the cue ball in such a way as to stifle my fingers and wrist on certain shots from dancing the tip across the surface of whitey. Pool is such a precision game that one shot resulting in perfect cue ball control can mean the difference in a match or even a tournament victory.

I might say more about this later.

Stan Shuffett

 

[swest]

I want to be sure I understand what you all are saying in these last couple of posts (and some of the earlier ones). Although it is difficult to pose a single question that gets to the gist of what I am wondering, I'll give it a go:

Are you saying that there is some way of striking the cueball with some combination of twist/swoop/etc. with the cue stick that will cause a different effect on the path and spin of the cue ball than can be achieved by striking directly with a simple stroke (i.e. a piston movement) at a point on the cue ball from some specific direction with the cue stick?

 

[stan shuffett]

I want to be sure I understand what you all are saying in these last couple of posts. Although it is difficult to pose a single question that gets to the gist of what I am wondering, I'll give it a go:

Are you saying that there is some way of striking the cueball with some combination of twist/swoop/etc. with the cue stick that will cause a different effect on the path and spin of the cue ball than can be achieved by striking directly with a simple stroke (i.e. a piston movement) at a point on the cue ball from some specific direction with the cue stick?

Yes,

But a straight stroke rules. The wrist twist is a technique, a weapon, that can be used for certain shots. I certainly do not recommend it unless a player is ready for it............

A swipe across the cue ball allows for the tip to remain on the surface of the cue ball a micro-moment longer, creating more spin and less squirt ....as this can happen closer to center cue ball.

Just think about spinning a basketball on your finger. If you poke through the ball it will squirt off your finger. Swipe and you get lots of spin and less chance of poking the ball off your finger.

Stan Shuffett