Aiming very close cuts

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just a simple parallel shift to center cue ball is a pretty sure pot on that, but that is not the topic, nor what you said earlier. Pivot would certainly over cut and likely miss the entire ball.

Pretty obvious, at least for those of us who can read and comprehend.
 

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I believe the first post description of the stance line and the line in the diagram are equivalent.

A parallel shift would do that (closely/subjectively)--thanks, Renegade--so would a backhand pivot toward absolute center (closely/subjectively to start), NOT center cue ball, and I apologize for not stating this correctly the first time.

Ah, no. Stand aligned and down in your stance are two different things.

Ah, no. A parallel shift and a backhand pivot are not the same.

Now it's absolute center instead of ccb. May need another diagram cuz I've no clue what all that means.

You're an instructor and are not aware of front hand English?
Hmm, interesting.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
All of them do - except aiming contact point to contact point. For that method you align the cue through both points and then shift parallel (with no angle adjustment) to center CB. Side spin and squirt correction, if needed, is added from there.

pj
chgo
Yes, I think even an old Mosconi volume has that aim method--Nick Varner also shoots parallel aim.

The backhand pivot I suggest is to get a bit added "overcut" on the shots diagrammed by the OP.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Ah, no. Stand aligned and down in your stance are two different things.

Ah, no. A parallel shift and a backhand pivot are not the same.

Now it's absolute center instead of ccb. May need another diagram cuz I've no clue what all that means.

You're an instructor and are not aware of front hand English?
Hmm, interesting.
I've seen "stand" and "stance" used interchangeably on dozens of AZ threads.

I did not write "shift" in this thread. I wrote "pivot". They are different, I agree.

The absolute center of a cue ball is the pit of the peach--the center/inner core of the Earth, not the equator of the Earth.

I've discussed fronthand english on other threads. I wrote that pros tend to pivot with their eyes and mind as opposed to setting down in the full stance then moving their bridge along the cloth--and so I'd question an aim method requiring such. We can see pros moving their backhand in small amounts, but almost never their bridge hand, after settling into the stance.
 
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sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've seen "stand" and "stance" used interchangeably on dozens of AZ threads.
Well I haven't. If they were they shouldn't have been because they're two completely different things. Don't believe me then check the dictionary, it's crystal clear. Pool is a game of precision and accuracy. To use ambiguous language when explaining or teaching concepts or methods is a disservice to the community at large. It irks the hell out of me, particularly when done by a self proclaimed instructor.

I did not write "shift" in this thread. I wrote "pivot". They are different, I agree.
Might want to go back to your post #36 which contain the following words:

A parallel shift would do that--so would a backhand pivot toward absolute center. You didn't type these words??
The absolute center of a cue ball is the pit of the peach--the center/inner core of the Earth, not the equator of the Earth.
BTW, for purposes of this discussion and shot example and the diagram in your post if you do a backhand pivot to absolute center your shaft is also pointed towards what is commonly thought of as CCB.
I've discussed fronthand english on other threads. I wrote that pros tend to pivot with their eyes and mind as opposed to setting down in the full stance then moving their bridge along the cloth--and so I'd question an aim method requiring such. We can see pros moving their backhand in small amounts, but almost never their bridge hand, after settling into the stance.
If so, then why did PJ have to explain it to you in post #38 after you asked this in post #37... Is there an aim method where one moves the bridge hand along the cloth to pivot after assuming the stance? I cannot recall one offhand.
 
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Mensabum

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
How do you aim very close cut shots? Do you have some different method for them, or visualize and execute them just like any shot?

Image of the types of shot I'm talking about:

View attachment 728817

They are a big weakness of mine, so I'm looking for inspiration of some system, method or trick for them. I aim 95%+ of all shots by feel, but these are so annoying I wouldn't mind a system/method/trick if it works better than pure instincts.

What I've been doing this far is just aligning myself while standing to wherever the pot looks right, and then picking a "spot on the wall", extending the pot line as far as I can, and then aim for that spot. It works alright, but the instinctual part of "looking right" is much more inconsistent, compared to when the cut isn't so close.

Another style I rarely use in a clutch if the pot is very important, I'm not feeling confident and I'm not under a shot clock, is to calculate the (almost) exact potting angle (ignoring for throw), by using the table geometry an angle measurement tool.

If anyone is curious, the way I do that is by calculating the OB-pocket angle relative to the CB-approximated ghost ball center angle. This gives me a value between 0 and 8 (0-90 degrees), which I then convert to a fractional aiming point by using a memorized list of sin function values and interpolating between them (0->0, 1->2, 2->3.8, 3->5.6, 4->7, 5->8.4, 6->9.2, 7->9.8, 8->10), and do my best to aim towards that fractional point (0 = full, 5 = half ball hit, 10 = 90 degree cut), accounting/adjusting for throw if needed.

That "system" (not sure what to call it, came up with it myself although I'm sure many people have come up with similar ones) can fail if your initial guess of ghost ball center is off by too much, but the system has a nice self-correcting property to be even more accurate if you iterate it two (or more) times in a specific way (the value you get out of it reveals if the original guess was off, and the direction it was off by). I can explain more if someone is curious about this.

But anyway, it works "good", and can be used for any shot, it's just painfully slow, so I don't bother except in very rare circumstances where it's worth it, which usualle are very close cuts.
For myself, I've found that overestimating the cut helps. I always used to undercut those shots, especially when english was applied, which is on most. I don't seem to have any problem w them now. Just a small mental shift towards a thinner cut angle. Case in point, how many times have you undercut a ball vs overcut one?? Nuff said.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Well I haven't. If they were they shouldn't have been because they're two completely different things. Don't believe me then check the dictionary, it's crystal clear. Pool is a game of precision and accuracy. To use ambiguous language when explaining or teaching concepts or methods is a disservice to the community at large. It irks the hell out of me, particularly when done by a self proclaimed instructor.


Might want to go back to your post #36 which contain the following words:

A parallel shift would do that--so would a backhand pivot toward absolute center. You didn't type these words??

BTW, for purposes of this discussion and shot example and the diagram in your post if you do a backhand pivot to absolute center your shaft is also pointed towards what is commonly thought of as CCB.

If so, then why did PJ have to explain it to you in post #38 after you asked this in post #37... Is there an aim method where one moves the bridge hand along the cloth to pivot after assuming the stance? I cannot recall one offhand.
It's not just AZ, there are books and videos that use stand as a synonym for stance. I stand to play pool, I don't sit on the rail (typically).

I was agreeing with Renegade that the parallel shift aim method is one method for those cuts.

I'm happy to explain again re: fronthand english. Pros almost never set their bridge hand on the table then apply fronthand english.

I am sorry that my first post wasn't "Take your stance along the contact point lines of CB and OB, then backhand pivot to absolute center CB (peach pit) for an approximation of aim, including that feel of overcut you want to cinch these shots."

I had a similar shot last week and this method worked perfectly.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
BTW, for purposes of this discussion and shot example and the diagram in your post if you do a backhand pivot to absolute center your shaft is also pointed towards what is commonly thought of as CCB.
If you start with your cue parallel shifted to align with the contact points then pivot so your shaft is pointed toward absolute center, your shaft won't be pointed towards what is commonly thought of as CCB (although not far from it).

To point at absolute center and simultaneously at CCB (as it's known in pool) your shaft must be parallel to the line between contact points - it obviously isn't if you've pivoted from there.

pj
chgo
 
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sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you start with your cue parallel shifted to align with the contact points then pivot so your shaft is pointed toward absolute center, your shaft won't be pointed towards what is commonly thought of as CCB (although not far from it).

To point at absolute center and simultaneously at CCB (as it's known in pool) your shaft must be parallel to the line between contact points - it obviously isn't if you've pivoted from there.

pj
chgo
You should know. All I did was set up the balls as in his diagram, aim down the indicated line then pivoted to CCB. The center of my shaft was dissecting the CB with equal distance to left and right edges. If that doesn't also point at absolute center then I stand corrected. 6th grade dropout here.

CCB means center cueball Oikawa
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
All I did was set up the balls as in his diagram, aim down the indicated line then pivoted to CCB. The center of my shaft was dissecting the CB with equal distance to left and right edges.
The cue ball's center in pool is defined as the visual center of the CB as viewed along the shot line (i.e., parallel with the line between contact points). If you place your cue on the line between contact points and then pivot (as shown in BA's diagram), it obviously can't still be parallel.

pj
chgo
 

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The cue ball's center in pool is defined as the visual center of the CB as viewed along the shot line (i.e., parallel with the line between contact points). If you place your cue on the line between contact points and then pivot (as shown in BA's diagram), it obviously can't still be parallel.

pj
chgo
I understand what you're saying but if your shaft is addressing the cb at any position along the circumference (in the diagram it's with extreme left english) and you pivot to absolute center, is not the shaft pointing thru the center of the cb? It may not be pointing from the correct position but it's still pointing thru the middle of the ball.

If you could provide a diagram that would be helpful. My point is if you were to do what he said, as I did, you would overcut the ball.

How is it possible to pivot to absolute center when you start from the line thru the contact points if we adopt your definition of CCB.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...if your shaft is addressing the cb at any position along the circumference (in the diagram it's with extreme left english) and you pivot to absolute center, is not the shaft pointing thru the center of the cb? It may not be pointing from the correct position but it's still pointing thru the middle of the ball.
But that "center" is useless for aiming in pool. The center that's useful in pool is the "aiming center" that I described (CB center as viewed along the shot line).

My point is if you were to do what he said, as I did, you would overcut the ball.
Of course - that's why it isn't the CB's "aiming center" (the "CB center" as it's used in aiming pool balls).

How is it possible to pivot to absolute center when you start from the line thru the contact points if we adopt your definition of CCB.
You can pivot to absolute center ("3D center" or "center of mass") from anywhere - but it will only be the "aiming center" if you end up on the shot line.

pj
chgo
 
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sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
But that "center" is useless for aiming in pool. The center that's useful in pool is the "aiming center" that I described (CB center as viewed along the shot line).


Of course - that's why it isn't the CB's "aiming center" (the "CB center" as it's used in aiming pool balls).


You can pivot to absolute center ("3D center" or "center of mass") from anywhere - but it will only be the "aiming center" if you end up on the shot line.

pj
chgo
Yes, all that is obvious. Disregarding all this AC and CCB stuff if one follows Shermans directions on what to do you will overcut the ball. Do you have an opinion on that?
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
cue ball red center 2.jpg
cue ball red center dot 1.jpg
 

Poolmanis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How do you aim very close cut shots? Do you have some different method for them, or visualize and execute them just like any shot?

Image of the types of shot I'm talking about:

View attachment 728817

They are a big weakness of mine, so I'm looking for inspiration of some system, method or trick for them. I aim 95%+ of all shots by feel, but these are so annoying I wouldn't mind a system/method/trick if it works better than pure instincts.

What I've been doing this far is just aligning myself while standing to wherever the pot looks right, and then picking a "spot on the wall", extending the pot line as far as I can, and then aim for that spot. It works alright, but the instinctual part of "looking right" is much more inconsistent, compared to when the cut isn't so close.

Another style I rarely use in a clutch if the pot is very important, I'm not feeling confident and I'm not under a shot clock, is to calculate the (almost) exact potting angle (ignoring for throw), by using the table geometry an angle measurement tool.

If anyone is curious, the way I do that is by calculating the OB-pocket angle relative to the CB-approximated ghost ball center angle. This gives me a value between 0 and 8 (0-90 degrees), which I then convert to a fractional aiming point by using a memorized list of sin function values and interpolating between them (0->0, 1->2, 2->3.8, 3->5.6, 4->7, 5->8.4, 6->9.2, 7->9.8, 8->10), and do my best to aim towards that fractional point (0 = full, 5 = half ball hit, 10 = 90 degree cut), accounting/adjusting for throw if needed.

That "system" (not sure what to call it, came up with it myself although I'm sure many people have come up with similar ones) can fail if your initial guess of ghost ball center is off by too much, but the system has a nice self-correcting property to be even more accurate if you iterate it two (or more) times in a specific way (the value you get out of it reveals if the original guess was off, and the direction it was off by). I can explain more if someone is curious about this.

But anyway, it works "good", and can be used for any shot, it's just painfully slow, so I don't bother except in very rare circumstances where it's worth it, which usualle are very close cuts.

When practice these shot, bend down from distance and try feel cut. Then take a target point from far where you want to point your aiming line.
Also aiming cueball carom angle too helps. Repeat same shot and take a note where cueball goes when you make it. Then try aim so cueball goes there too.
After some time those 2 pictures connect and your feel of shot get better fast.
 
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