aligning the endgrain on cores

[Cue Crazy]

I don't have a gun drill therefore I have used wood selection to get around It, and don't usually core My woods with the exception of buttsleeves, and such.

Well, I had this piece of maple I wanted to toy around with, and the best way I can describe It is a cross between tiger and curley maple. Not the tightest grain, but really nice tiger stripes in It, that really pops out when sealed. My concern is that even though It is well seasoned, that It still may not be that stable therefore I didn't want to chance It by not coring, so I improvised alittle- I had a shaft dowel that was around 15 gpi with very straight grain. I turned It to around .750-.755.
To drill out the forearm, I first drilled with a long drill bit, then I used My 6" boring bar, by running It in from each end. The forearm will have ringwork on both ends, and a long joint collar, so the way I figured It I had just enough to get by with. I was afraid that by boring one end then rechucking, and doing the other end, that I may have a bad section in the middle where the bore wouldn't line up perfectly, but as It turned out the boring matched up well there, and I was able to perfectly fit My dowel into It, so that It slides in with no snag, and is still fairly snug fitting. In the end for not having a gun drill, I was pretty well pleased with the results.

Here's where My question comes in- I was looking at the 2 pieces in relation to each other, and started thinking about the faces/endgrain, and don't remember this subject being discussed before, but I was thinking about how I would glue these pieces together- would I want to align the grain of the core with the grain on the forearm, which made alot of sense to me, but then I got to thinking, radially, would aligning them in the oposite direction (cross pattern) provide more stability or would It simply cause the 2 pieces to fight against each other?

Maybe I'm overthinking this, but wondering if anyone else takes end grain alignment into consideration before glueing, what Their preference would be, and the reasoning behind that decision?

Greg

 

[jazznpool]

I've been taught to go 90 degree opposing grain for strength and stability. Hope your coring project works well Greg.

Martin

I don't have a gun drill therefore I have used wood selection to get around It, and don't usually core My woods with the exception of buttsleeves, and such.

Well, I had this piece of maple I wanted to toy around with, and the best way I can describe It is a cross between tiger and curley maple. Not the tightest grain, but really nice tiger stripes in It, that really pops out when sealed. My concern is that even though It is well seasoned, that It still may not be that stable therefore I didn't want to chance It by not coring, so I improvised alittle- I had a shaft dowel that was around 15 gpi with very straight grain. I turned It to around .750-.755.
To drill out the forearm, I first drilled with a long drill bit, then I used My 6" boring bar, by running It in from each end. The forearm will have ringwork on both ends, and a long joint collar, so the way I figured It I had just enough to get by with. I was afraid that by boring one end then rechucking, and doing the other end, that I may have a bad section in the middle where the bore wouldn't line up perfectly, but as It turned out the boring matched up well there, and I was able to perfectly fit My dowel into It, so that It slides in with no snag, and is still fairly snug fitting. In the end for not having a gun drill, I was pretty well pleased with the results.

Here's where My question comes in- I was looking at the 2 pieces in relation to each other, and started thinking about the faces/endgrain, and don't remember this subject being discussed before, but I was thinking about how I would glue these pieces together- would I want to align the grain of the core with the grain on the forearm, which made alot of sense to me, but then I got to thinking, radially, would aligning them in the oposite direction (cross pattern) provide more stability or would It simply cause the 2 pieces to fight against each other?

Maybe I'm overthinking this, but wondering if anyone else takes end grain alignment into consideration before glueing, what Their preference would be, and the reasoning behind that decision?

Greg

 

[Cue Crazy]

I've been taught to go 90 degree opposing grain for strength and stability. Hope your coring project works well Greg.

Martin

Thanks Martin,

So maybe I wasn't overthinking It afterall:wink: . The More I started thinking about It, the more crosshatching the grains seemed to make sense for the reasons you mentioned, but since I don't usually core pieces that long, I had nothing to go on, and no idea If I was offtrack in that thinking, or If It could have the oposite effect, and cause any twisting issues that I was not aware of, so I figured I'd ask here to see If anyone else gives It a thought, and does this. It's good to know that maybe My overthinking was rightfully justified this time:thumbup: Also better to find out before I glue things up then afterwards.

Apprietiate the input bud,

Greg

 

[manwon]

I don't have a gun drill therefore I have used wood selection to get around It, and don't usually core My woods with the exception of buttsleeves, and such.

Well, I had this piece of maple I wanted to toy around with, and the best way I can describe It is a cross between tiger and curley maple. Not the tightest grain, but really nice tiger stripes in It, that really pops out when sealed. My concern is that even though It is well seasoned, that It still may not be that stable therefore I didn't want to chance It by not coring, so I improvised alittle- I had a shaft dowel that was around 15 gpi with very straight grain. I turned It to around .750-.755.
To drill out the forearm, I first drilled with a long drill bit, then I used My 6" boring bar, by running It in from each end. The forearm will have ringwork on both ends, and a long joint collar, so the way I figured It I had just enough to get by with. I was afraid that by boring one end then rechucking, and doing the other end, that I may have a bad section in the middle where the bore wouldn't line up perfectly, but as It turned out the boring matched up well there, and I was able to perfectly fit My dowel into It, so that It slides in with no snag, and is still fairly snug fitting. In the end for not having a gun drill, I was pretty well pleased with the results.

Here's where My question comes in- I was looking at the 2 pieces in relation to each other, and started thinking about the faces/endgrain, and don't remember this subject being discussed before, but I was thinking about how I would glue these pieces together- would I want to align the grain of the core with the grain on the forearm, which made alot of sense to me, but then I got to thinking, radially, would aligning them in the oposite direction (cross pattern) provide more stability or would It simply cause the 2 pieces to fight against each other?

Maybe I'm overthinking this, but wondering if anyone else takes end grain alignment into consideration before glueing, what Their preference would be, and the reasoning behind that decision?

Greg

Greg, I have experimented with some coring and I have found that going 90 degrees works very well like the other poster said. But like I have said, I have been experimenting, I have found a interesting method that I will share. I have been using Phenolic Joint collar material with a 900 OD and a 623 Id as my first core. I core the forearm to .750 and turn the joint material to approximately .747 grove the core its length at 1/8 inch intervals and epoxy it into the forearm. I run it flush to the front of the forearm and leave 2 inches protruding from the rear. When the epoxy is dry and set, I make a maple dowel that is approximately .620 in diameter and grove it the entire length like above, and then epoxy it into the Phenolic tube.

I have found a source for lower end Phenolic tubing so the expense is minimal. However, the Phenolic tube will allow no movement of that forearm or the maple dowel inside it. Next, I core my handle, in-preparation for jointing the forearm to it. Then I bore a hole in the Maple dowel inside the Phenolic tube in the forearm and set my connection screw. This method will give superior strength at the A-joint, and there will never be movement or a buzz. Before epoxying this connection I always test fit it for alignment. In most cases I also use a similar technique for the back side of the handle and extend the phenolic tubing all the way to the end of the butt cap. I use push in bumpers that are approximately .624 in diameter so they fit real snug. I know many people use a 7/8 diameter Tenon for the cored sections of the butt for stability. But using this technique you can safely use 7/8 or 3/4 with no problems, and you never have to worry about movement.

I suspect many will think I am crazy, and that this is to much work. Maybe I am, but the strength of those connections and the stability gained are certainly worth it to me. Not to mention the weight control and the ease of movement of the cues balance point.

Take Care.

 

[Cue Crazy]

Greg, I have experimented with some coring and I have found that going 90 degrees works very well like the other poster said. But like I have said, I have been experimenting, I have found a interesting method that I will share. I have been using Phenolic Joint collar material with a 900 OD and a 623 Id as my first core. I core the forearm to .750 and turn the joint material to approximately .747 grove the core its length at 1/8 inch intervals and epoxy it into the forearm. I run it flush to the front of the forearm and leave 2 inches protruding from the rear. When the epoxy is dry and set, I make a maple dowel that is approximately .620 in diameter and grove it the entire length like above, and then epoxy it into the Phenolic tube.

I have found a source for lower end Phenolic tubing so the expense is minimal. However, the Phenolic tube will allow no movement of that forearm or the maple dowel inside it. Next, I core my handle, in-preparation for jointing the forearm to it. Then I bore a hole in the Maple dowel inside the Phenolic tube in the forearm and set my connection screw. This method will give superior strength at the A-joint, and there will never be movement or a buzz. Before epoxying this connection I always test fit it for alignment. In most cases I also use a similar technique for the back side of the handle and extend the phenolic tubing all the way to the end of the butt cap. I use push in bumpers that are approximately .624 in diameter so they fit real snug. I know many people use a 7/8 diameter Tenon for the cored sections of the butt for stability. But using this technique you can safely use 7/8 or 3/4 with no problems, and you never have to worry about movement.

I suspect many will think I am crazy, and that this is to much work. Maybe I am, but the strength of those connections and the stability gained are certainly worth it to me. Not to mention the weight control and the ease of movement of the cues balance point.

Take Care.

Pretty cool, Thanks for sharing Craig.

I can't say that something like what You mentioned hasn't crossed My mind, but I have yet to try It out, phenolic is expensive for using such a long lenth, and I don't really have any cheaper sources that don't require a large minimum order. Also I need to setup to bore out longer pieces.

I have used It to core shorter pieces, such as delicate woods in the collar. To explain It simply, I've used It to make the collar and ringwork into basically one unit of It's own. Produced a really solid consistent feel through the joint that I liked alot, It could have just been one of the cues that play above expectations for whatever reasons, but I plan to use It again soon, to see If I can get the same results. I also core with It to create new threads or make inserts from It sometimes. I use It alot for repairing the 3/8 thread pattern. It makes really clean strong threads. It's great stuff, many good uses in cuebuilding.

BTW, Do You like the feel of the finished cue that you mentioned? Is there a noticable change in weight? I guess by actually coring the ID of the phenolic too, that It probably cuts out alot of the extra weight that would be added with say a solid Phenolic core.:wink:

Thanks

Greg

 

[manwon]

Pretty cool, Thanks for sharing Craig.

I can't say that something like what You mentioned hasn't crossed My mind, but I have yet to try It out, phenolic is expensive for using such a long lenth, and I don't really have any cheaper sources that don't require a large minimum order. Also I need to setup to bore out longer pieces.

I have used It to core shorter pieces, such as delicate woods in the collar. To explain It simply, I've used It to make the collar and ringwork into basically one unit of It's own. Produced a really solid consistent feel through the joint that I liked alot, It could have just been one of the cues that play above expectations for whatever reasons, but I plan to use It again soon, to see If I can get the same results. I also core with It to create new threads or make inserts from It sometimes. I use It alot for repairing the 3/8 thread pattern. It makes really clean strong threads. It's great stuff, many good uses in cuebuilding.

BTW, Do You like the feel of the finished cue that you mentioned? Is there a noticable change in weight? I guess by actually coring the ID of the phenolic too, that It probably cuts out alot of the extra weight that would be added with say a solid Phenolic core.:wink:

Thanks

Greg

Greg, I have been doing this for around 1 1/2 years and I can tell you cues made this way hit very well, and the hit is also very repeatable. By using different woods as the core that go's into the phenolic tube you can add weight forward very easily. The half front of the core could be low grade ebony and the other half could be Maple or even Mahogany, it all depends on what you are trying to do with the cues balance. I am unsure if anyone else is doing this to their cues, but I would suspect that others have tried it.

The best part of this is the connection, fit and stability it gives at the A-Joint. If you want to experiment sometime, under cut your normal tenon for your A-Joint to 5/8 diameter. Then slide on and epoxy a piece of Phenolic tube on the tenon, and when dry turn it down to .750. It will give you nice connection at the A-joint.

If you get bored try it sometime, and let me know what you think overall.

Take Care Greg!!!

 

[Cue Crazy]

Greg, I have been doing this for around 1 1/2 years and I can tell you cues made this way hit very well, and the hit is also very repeatable. By using different woods as the core that go's into the phenolic tube you can add weight forward very easily. The half front of the core could be low grade ebony and the other half could be Maple or even Mahogany, it all depends on what you are trying to do with the cues balance. I am unsure if anyone else is doing this to their cues, but I would suspect that others have tried it.

The best part of this is the connection, fit and stability it gives at the A-Joint. If you want to experiment sometime, under cut your normal tenon for your A-Joint to 5/8 diameter. Then slide on and epoxy a piece of Phenolic tube on the tenon, and when dry turn it down to .750. It will give you nice connection at the A-joint.

If you get bored try it sometime, and let me know what you think overall.

Take Care Greg!!!

The "A" joint thing has been mentioned to Me before by another maker years ago, but haven't tried that one either. I'll give It a shot sometime, and let ya know what I think.

I don't think I'll ever get tired of learning and trying new things. Still do It just about everyday on both fronts. There's still alot of things I have known about for years that I want to try, but then I stumble accross new methods in the day to day routine also. I think That's one reason I don't regret doing repair for so long, and haven't given It up to focus on builds. I don't get to devote all the time to building that I would like, In fact My time is limited to a handfull of cues a year, so My cup stays full, but I still learn alot of stuff from all the oddball repairs that come My way, and In that sometimes find more things that I may want to try out or may even want avoid in My own builds.:thumbup:

Thanks Again for the input.

Greg