All Members Please Give Your Opinion On The Following Forum Behavior / Issues

[socks]

Although I don't buy/sell here on a regular basis, I've given these some thought.

I know this has been brought up before, but what about the following process for transactions:

1. Buyer/Seller agree on price, S/H, method, etc
2. Buyer transfers funds to an escrow type account. (Via any desired method)
3. Escrow manager notifies Seller (and buyer) that funds are received and the product may be shipped.
4. Seller ships
5. Seller notifies escrow manager and buyer that shipment has been made.
6. Buyer has 3 days from receipt to inspect the product. Within the 3 day period, must either file a dispute, or tell the escrow manager the product is accepted and to release the funds. (No communication at the end of 3 days would constitute acceptance in my opinion.

I know it's a flawed idea, and would probably cost $$ to get properly set up, but was just thinking aloud.

a process like this is already sorta set set up and avaiable through profeciantbilliards.com . the only problem is noone wants to pay the fee.

the buyer is already shelling out a significant amount as they are buying the product, so they shouldn't be responsible for this peace of mind to be inssured they won't get ripped off.

on the other hand, the sellers here seem to be gettign cheaper and cheaper, which is painfully evident with the insistance of transfering thier cost of doing business fees to buyers by expecting buyers to pay thier paypal fees for them. which in and of itself is retarded. does sears charge their customers the fee they are charged by visa for accepting credit cards? probably, built into the products prices, but at least its not strait up advertised as such...

 

[classiccues]

a process like this is already sorta set set up and avaiable through profeciantbilliards.com . the only problem is noone wants to pay the fee.

the buyer is already shelling out a significant amount as they are buying the product, so they shouldn't be responsible for this peace of mind to be inssured they won't get ripped off.

on the other hand, the sellers here seem to be gettign cheaper and cheaper, which is painfully evident with the insistance of transfering thier cost of doing business fees to buyers by expecting buyers to pay thier paypal fees for them. which in and of itself is retarded. does sears charge their customers the fee they are charged by visa for accepting credit cards? probably, built into the products prices, but at least its not strait up advertised as such...

Now you are into negotiations. As far as sellers getting "cheaper", IMHO that is not entirely true. There is a lot of wood for sale. This means there is a lot of other people off loading cues in the same ball park. You can no longer list an item "high" and negotiate down. You need to start down and stay there. If you are at your "bottom" price there is no harm in saying money order only, if you want to pay paypal you must pay the fee. People should state all the particulars in a sale. The other thing is buyers are getting "cheaper", as well as sellers. Negotiating is a two way street. Escrow just needs to be negotiated, as a buyer doesn't want the extra cost, maybe the seller thinks the same. He might figure he is honest and so be it. The other things buyers need to make sure of are return policies. Make sure the seller has some rep.

JV

 

[Hidy Ho]

on the other hand, the sellers here seem to be gettign cheaper and cheaper, which is painfully evident with the insistance of transfering thier cost of doing business fees to buyers by expecting buyers to pay thier paypal fees for them. which in and of itself is retarded. does sears charge their customers the fee they are charged by visa for accepting credit cards? probably, built into the products prices, but at least its not strait up advertised as such...

Many of us who buy/trade/sell cues on AZ are not BUSINESS ... many of us do not have any profit margin built into our rock-bottom selling prices and can't afford or want to take 3% fee hit on the sale. Some of us do not trust PayPal or other electronic payments after hearing stories and prefer USPS money order (since defrauding USPS can have serious consequence).

To true business scenario may not work for some of us. I think for many of us "cues" are hobby - for fun. For others, AZ is a venue to generate revenue.

 

[runscott]

a process like this is already sorta set set up and avaiable through profeciantbilliards.com . the only problem is noone wants to pay the fee.

the buyer is already shelling out a significant amount as they are buying the product, so they shouldn't be responsible for this peace of mind to be inssured they won't get ripped off.

on the other hand, the sellers here seem to be gettign cheaper and cheaper, which is painfully evident with the insistance of transfering thier cost of doing business fees to buyers by expecting buyers to pay thier paypal fees for them. which in and of itself is retarded. does sears charge their customers the fee they are charged by visa for accepting credit cards? probably, built into the products prices, but at least its not strait up advertised as such...

Socks, you just have to figure out what makes you comfortable as a buyer, and let the potential seller know. If he won't give you what you want, and you can't deal, that's life - doesn't mean either of you are wrong. As classicues pointed out, it works both ways.

Personally, I prefer to just let a pure auction run on ebay, or to post my bottom line on AZ. I like these two options, because it limits the hassle. Unfortunately, too many buyers are clueless as to a cue's value and assume the seller has added a huge margin. If you know the market and what you are willing to pay, you really shouldn't have any problem evaluating a deal and making a decision.

If you are looking for a "steal", you probably will lose your opportunity during negotiations. As a buyer, several times I have PM'd a seller and offered MORE than his asking price, because I knew his price was low, and I wanted to make sure I got the cue - still paid a fair price in every instance. On the other hand, there are a few sellers on AZ who ALWAYS start items off WAY too high, as you know. Again, I don't like hassles, so I don't read past the price.

Scott <=== not a low-baller

 

[socks]

Many of us who buy/trade/sell cues on AZ are not BUSINESS ... many of us do not have any profit margin built into our rock-bottom selling prices and can't afford or want to take 3% fee hit on the sale. Some of us do not trust PayPal or other electronic payments after hearing stories and prefer USPS money order (since defrauding USPS can have serious consequence).

To true business scenario may not work for some of us. I think for many of us "cues" are hobby - for fun. For others, AZ is a venue to generate revenue.

maybe ya'll should go back and reread this thread. the point of it is opinions of bad business practice.

whether you are a business or not, doesn't make it good or acceptable business practice to transfer you're over head to the customer whether or not you want to or can afford the 3% paypal fee. the paypal fee is the sellers fee for offering the convinance of ease of payment and peace of mind to the buyer.

if you cann't afford it don't accept paypal, just accept the fact that 9 times out of 10, your not going to be purchased from because that lack of ease and peace of mind isn't there.

and while there are plenty of seller horror stories of paypal, there are probably just as many buyer horror stories regarding usage of money orders.

the only and last time i attempted to purchase an item via MO, the MO was purchased and mailed out USPS priority the same day the price was agreed upon. that was 6 weeks ago. the seller still claims no tto have recieved it, i have not recieved anything returned back to me. the only reason i haven't logged anythign with the post office is because the MO was only for $20 and i don't want to spend an extra $5 to probably find out i was ripped off and/or they lost it in the mail and then wait 60-90 days to be refunded a measly $20. i just assume not make payments through MO any longer and move on.

no one said the situation was perfect. just what peoples opinions of right and wrong regarding business practice as conducted in the wanted/for sale section.

i'm simply saying i do not belive it to be acceptable to expect the buyer to pick up the sellers overhead. nor will i purchase anythign from anyone that doesnt accept paypal nor will i pay thier fees for accepting it.

 

[socks]

Socks, you just have to figure out what makes you comfortable as a buyer, and let the potential seller know. If he won't give you what you want, and you can't deal, that's life - doesn't mean either of you are wrong. As classicues pointed out, it works both ways.

Personally, I prefer to just let a pure auction run on ebay, or to post my bottom line on AZ. I like these two options, because it limits the hassle. Unfortunately, too many buyers are clueless as to a cue's value and assume the seller has added a huge margin. If you know the market and what you are willing to pay, you really shouldn't have any problem evaluating a deal and making a decision.

If you are looking for a "steal", you probably will lose your opportunity during negotiations. As a buyer, several times I have PM'd a seller and offered MORE than his asking price, because I knew his price was low, and I wanted to make sure I got the cue - still paid a fair price in every instance. On the other hand, there are a few sellers on AZ who ALWAYS start items off WAY too high, as you know. Again, I don't like hassles, so I don't read past the price.

Scott <=== not a low-baller

yeah i wasn't really refering to low balling high balling, looking for a steal or whatever. more just the fees of doing business. as a buyer, i expect to pay the same amount for a pruduct regardless of my chosen method of payment. simply if i buy something from sears, or seyberts or whatever place selling me a product. they don't charge additional fees for paying by credit card, even though the credit card chages them fees to be able to offer that service to thier customers. if billy joe jim bob wants my business, what makes him think he is so special that i am going to be willing to pay his over head fees that noone else expects of me.

 

[runscott]

maybe ya'll should go back and reread this thread. the point of it is opinions of bad business practice.

This is a discussion forum. If you are writing a book and simply looking for press reviews, make that clear please.

Edited to add: no offense intended, just that we keep forgetting that in dicussion forums, it's natural to get off-track, and it's not a bad thing. Emotions, etc.

 

[Hidy Ho]

maybe ya'll should go back and reread this thread.

DISCLAIMER: I was never good at doing homework .... and English is not my first language.

Maybe I wasn't clear ...

To many of us who buy/trade/sell cues on AZ are not BUSINESS

Some of us see the forum as "extended family"

Jazz <-- was told my check was good enough but will send money order anyway since I'll have to be at the post office.

 

[runscott]

yeah i wasn't really refering to low balling high balling, looking for a steal or whatever. more just the fees of doing business. as a buyer, i expect to pay the same amount for a pruduct regardless of my chosen method of payment. simply if i buy something from sears, or seyberts or whatever place selling me a product. they don't charge additional fees for paying by credit card, even though the credit card chages them fees to be able to offer that service to thier customers. if billy joe jim bob wants my business, what makes him think he is so special that i am going to be willing to pay his over head fees that noone else expects of me.

I understand, but the pricing/buying technique always effects starting price/offer and negotiations. As Jazz pointed out, many of us are not businesses - it's a hobby and we aren't looking to make a buck. But a business HAS to cover overhead, AND make a profit, so of course they add a premium.

 

[shinobi]

whether you are a business or not, doesn't make it good or acceptable business practice to transfer you're over head to the customer whether or not you want to or can afford the 3% paypal fee. the paypal fee is the sellers fee for offering the convinance of ease of payment and peace of mind to the buyer.

if you cann't afford it don't accept paypal, just accept the fact that 9 times out of 10, your not going to be purchased from because that lack of ease and peace of mind isn't there.

i'm simply saying i do not belive it to be acceptable to expect the buyer to pick up the sellers overhead. nor will i purchase anythign from anyone that doesnt accept paypal nor will i pay thier fees for accepting it.

I don't think it makes any difference if someone asks for Paypal fees or not. Ultimately you can calculate their total asking price and decide if you're going to buy. If the cue happens to be a great deal even after adding 3%, who cares?

Something similar happens on eBay. Some items are listed with a really low price but higher than normal shipping. Often, the total price still ends up being a great deal. Of course if the total cost is not a good deal, don't buy it. Anyway, why sweat it?

 

[socks]

This is a discussion forum. If you are writing a book and simply looking for press reviews, make that clear please.

Edited to add: no offense intended, just that we keep forgetting that in dicussion forums, it's natural to get off-track, and it's not a bad thing. Emotions, etc.

the book release date has still yet to be determined. i'll keep you posted.

 

[Dawgie]

If a merchant is selling products and honors a CC he cannot charge one customer a lessor amount for paying cash and charge another customer a CC "fee" for using that card. Doing this is illegal.

I don't know if this situation also holds true for paypal.

 

[BPG24]

If a merchant is selling products and honors a CC he cannot charge one customer a lessor amount for paying cash and charge another customer a CC "fee" for using that card. Doing this is illegal.

I don't know if this situation also holds true for paypal.

Gas stations used to charge two different amounts... I had no idea that a law was passed to stop this. When was it passed?

 

[socks]

If a merchant is selling products and honors a CC he cannot charge one customer a lessor amount for paying cash and charge another customer a CC "fee" for using that card. Doing this is illegal.

I don't know if this situation also holds true for paypal.

and in my opinion, i don't make a distinction between CC and paypal as when i use paypal, it charges through my CC. so when i see "add 3% for paypal" that is exactly what i am seeing, a merchent charging one customer a lessor amount for paying with cash as apposed to anouther paying via paypal. it doesn't matter whether the person selling the product is incorperated or selling extra stuff out of thier basement or if they are selling 1 product or 100. the details don't change the ethics.

 

[manwon]

"All Members Please Give Your Opinion On The Following Forum Behavior / Issues"


I'm a private person, truly I am and I'd prefer not to make my opinions public...... imo
Doug



*Issues ? I have Issues. Oh boy, do I have Issues. You want to hear Issues ? Don't get me started... imo



I'm a private person, truly I am and I'd prefer not to make my opinions public...... imo
Doug


Thanks for you insight, however, it would appear that your opinion is public!!!(A Rolled Up Newspaper Can Deter Bad Behavior... imo )

Let me say this, I totally agree with you!!!!!

 

[runscott]

the book release date has still yet to be determined. i'll keep you posted.

lol - I was joking, but the same thing happened on another forum. Folks were complaining about discussions getting off topic, too many comments and not enough technical stuff, etc. It started to sound like they wanted an online book rather than discussions.

You know, though - wouldn't it be nice if we had someone who kept a mirror of this forum, where all the b.s. was stripped out and only useful reference material was left?

 

[ericdraven]

lol - I was joking, but the same thing happened on another forum. Folks were complaining about discussions getting off topic, too many comments and not enough technical stuff, etc. It started to sound like they wanted an online book rather than discussions.

You know, though - wouldn't it be nice if we had someone who kept a mirror of this forum, where all the b.s. was stripped out and only useful reference material was left?

then what room would your posting be moved too ?? j/k

 

[runscott]

then what room would your posting be moved too ?? j/k

Have I found a new puppydog?

 

[ericdraven]

Have I found a new puppydog?[/QUOTE


did not see the j/k smiley?? oh well. naa im just posting in rooms like everyone else besides i love reading your posting for entertainment value so it helps with stress and bp hmm come to think of it you have posted alot in room i frequent hmmm we need a wavey smiley )

do not have a puppy but here is my cat with an ak-47

 

[manwon]

Hi Craig,

To continue our discussion:




Ok, I agree and I'll give you 2 & 3. But #1 is highly debatable. I'm using you as an example because you state you have 25 years experience in the industry. Nothing personal as I could choose anyone else that has the same amount of experience. So basically you are saying that a person that has been in the industry for say 1-2 years, is not qualified to form an opinion on a product and recommend anything.

I have ZERO ties to the business side of the industry, but I have been playing (and badly I might add ) for the better part of 25 years. However, I have not studied the "blue book" and I have only been a member here for a couple of years. So I have no credibility to "hype" or recommend a product that I use? I have no right to mention a product because I am not an industry insider? (Again I am only using us for the example)

Basically, newer members, younger members, industry outsiders, etc can't form an opinion on a product they use? That may or may not be the intent of your statement, but that's sure how it comes across.



Again, I am not picking on you or Mr Howard. These are just examples for our discussion.

So, when I say or recommend KVs J/B cue it's not hype because I can quantify my opinion? Because:

1. It IS the best J/B cue I have ever used. I make this statement because it's what I believe. I have used others as well. (How can I assess the quality of a pool cue? I have been playing for a long time, and pool it's my area of interest - I am not at all saying I am an expert and am far from it. )

2. This really should have no bearing on your opinion. Because Mr Howard invented the thing, doesn't make it the best. KV improved upon the J/B cue, and that doesn't qualify as making it the best in my opinion.

3. I do not get contacted to make my comments, and I am not being paid for my comments about KV cues.

Another example: If a new person says "My mop handle is the best damn J/B cue I have ever used!" and he/she makes this statement because that's what they believe, and they are not being contacted or paid by "Mop & Glo" and Mop & Glo is a well respected mop maker and mop & glo invented or enhanced the mop handle.

The truth to the matter is it still doesn't make it FACT. It's the opinion of one person, and whether in the "mop" industry or not, they are still entitled to their opinion and to write about it and/or shout it from the roof tops if they want.

Another truth, like it or not, is ALL three of these examples are OPINIONS and as opinions, NONE of these are any more important than the other two and none of the opinions are factually right or wrong. They are just opinions. Also, in my eyes, each one of them is HYPING the product.

If you disagree that is your right and we'll have to "agree to disagree" as the saying goes.

I guess what I would say to the "qualified and experienced" statement is this: If you want a place where only those that have a pedigree and pass an application process can participate, create a place and have your own "Mensa" group. With the traffic this forum generates, it probably isn't going to turn into that any time soon.







To be honest, I am not fishing and don't care. I am not asking you to violate confidences that have been entrusted to you. I simply would like a general example of what you are referring to. What types of facts do you feel are being exaggerated? That way I can better discuss the topic. No more, no less.


This has turned into a good thread. Let's keep it up.

Craig and I are only discussing a small portion of the issues presented in original thread. Are there any comments on the other items?

Regards,
The other Craig.

Ok, I agree and I'll give you 2 & 3. But #1 is highly debatable. I'm using you as an example because you state you have 25 years experience in the industry. Nothing personal as I could choose anyone else that has the same amount of experience. So basically you are saying that a person that has been in the industry for say 1-2 years, is not qualified to form an opinion on a product and recommend anything.

This was not my intent, when I made the comment: 1. They are not qualified or have not had the experience to make their claims. I was pointing out and referring to those individuals who fall into items 2&3 in the post. Now is this going on here on this forum? Are there members who without knowledge of a product making claims for products? Is this hype or deceptive behavior? I suspect that we all know this occurs, I also think that most of the long term members know who these people are. Now hopefully the new members on the forum will take notice, and this will help make their transition easier without finding out the hard way.

Basically, newer members, younger members, industry outsiders, etc can't form an opinion on a product they use? That may or may not be the intent of your statement, but that's sure how it comes across.

No where has it been said that anyones opinion is worthless in fact in my first post I said the followingPlease, I am interested in the opinions of every forum member, everyone here has something to offer, no ones opinion is unimportant. These are my thoughts, I do truly care about this forum and its continued well being as a whole. Our strength is in numbers, we as the forum membership can choose to go in one of two directions, do nothing and know there is a problem and allow it to get worst, or help each other and the forum Leadership to solve these problems)

To form an opinion is a Human birth right, to act like a Parrot and spout information for a cracker is compromising your integrity!!!

Again, I am not picking on you or Mr Howard. These are just examples for our discussion.

So, when I say or recommend KVs J/B cue it's not hype because I can quantify my opinion? Because:

1. It IS the best J/B cue I have ever used. I make this statement because it's what I believe. I have used others as well. (How can I assess the quality of a pool cue? I have been playing for a long time, and pool it's my area of interest - I am not at all saying I am an expert and am far from it. )

2. This really should have no bearing on your opinion. Because Mr Howard invented the thing, doesn't make it the best. KV improved upon the J/B cue, and that doesn't qualify as making it the best in my opinion.

3. I do not get contacted to make my comments, and I am not being paid for my comments about KV cues.

Another example: If a new person says "My mop handle is the best damn J/B cue I have ever used!" and he/she makes this statement because that's what they believe, and they are not being contacted or paid by "Mop & Glo" and Mop & Glo is a well respected mop maker and mop & glo invented or enhanced the mop handle.

First Craig, I do not understand why time and time again you continue to bring KV or Kevin Varney into this. This is not about any single individual, I personally am not here to debate the Pros and Cons of any single persons positive or negative aspects. I think that any examples should be confined to the person asking the questions and the person the questions are directed at. If someone wishes to join the discussion all they have to do is turn on their computer and type.

I guess what I would say to the "qualified and experienced" statement is this: If you want a place where only those that have a pedigree and pass an application process can participate, create a place and have your own "Mensa" group. With the traffic this forum generates, it probably isn't going to turn into that any time soon.

What I would like to see is a place where everyone is given the credit they are due for their deeds. If I want to watch CNN, I will turn on the TV, the commercial interests that are forced upon the forum membership are not necessary. I totally believe that every member has the right to and should express their individual opinion. However, sometimes an opinion can be given for some perceived gain, whether it is financial, or just to stroke an over active ego. This is where an opinion becomes hype, and this is also where it becomes a deceptive action. This is also where individuals sacrifice their integrity, and last this is where their individual opinion is meaningless to others.

I hope I cleared this up Craig!!!

Oh and by the way,you said: (If you want a place where only those that have a pedigree and pass an application process can participate, create a place and have your own "Mensa" group.) I had the chance to be a member, but I could not remember the phone number or the address to send my application to!!!!!!!!LOL

Have a good day!!!!