All-natural cues - does anyone make them?

Minnesota Phat

Minnesota Phat

Active member
I'm a Luddite when it comes to pool cues, so I was just wondering if anyone makes a 100% natural two-piece cue - just wood, leather, rubber, etc. - no steel, plastic, etc.

I'm no expert, but the only problem issues I could see are the finish and the glue, and I think a clever cuemaker could maybe find a way to navigate those issues.

Is there a reason why it would be bad to make a cue out of all-natural materials?

Personally, I wouldn't want ivory (I love elephants), but other than that, I'd vastly prefer a cue where the only feedback comes from leather, wood, and other natural materials.

I'm mainly asking out of curiosity, but such a cue would get on my radar as something I might want to buy and/or recommend to others someday.

Thanks!
 
cueman

cueman

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Using plain wood instead of stronger materials to reinforce the joint area and ferrule area creates a potential weak spot. If horn material like buffalo horn is acceptable then your cue would be easy enough.
 
Minnesota Phat

Minnesota Phat

Active member
cueman said:
Using plain wood instead of stronger materials to reinforce the joint area and ferrule area creates a potential weak spot. If horn material like buffalo horn is acceptable then your cue would be easy enough.
Click to expand...
Gotcha. I noticed that Longoni seems to have wood pins/joints for carom cues, but not for pool cues - maybe that's because pool cues are used for more high-impact type shots (e.g. jump shots)?

Here's the Longoni carom cue shafts - they may be reinforced in some way I'm not aware of, but it looks like they're just wood-to-wood (not that I can really tell): https://www.longonicues.com/longoni-specifications/longoni-joints

Water buffalo would be fine with me - they're not endangered or anything.

Thanks for your feedback. :)
 
cueman

cueman

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Minnesota Phat said:
Gotcha. I noticed that Longoni seems to have wood pins/joints for carom cues, but not for pool cues - maybe that's because pool cues are used for more high-impact type shots (e.g. jump shots)?

Here's the Longoni carom cue shafts - they may be reinforced in some way I'm not aware of, but it looks like they're just wood-to-wood (not that I can really tell): https://www.longonicues.com/longoni-specifications/longoni-joints

Water buffalo would be fine with me - they're not endangered or anything.

Thanks for your feedback. :)
Click to expand...
It is the other half of the joint that really needs reinforcing joint rings.
 
cueman

cueman

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Chuck Starkey makes wood pin cues for playing pool instead of caroms. He could use horn or antler for ferrules, joint rings and butt plates and you would have an all natural materials cue except for glues and finish.
 
Last edited:
JoeyInCali

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
DeeDeeCues said:
Yeah, I just go out to the stainless steel tree and chop a bit off.

Stainless steel is actually newer than Bakelite.
Click to expand...


I thought you melt some white sand and make SS . 😂
White.tail tips can be used as ferrules.
Moose for collars and caps.
Plenty of.oil for finish.
I refuse to use hide.glue and wood joint screw.
😂 Not gonna do it.
 
Minnesota Phat

Minnesota Phat

Active member
JoeyInCali said:
Isn't stainless steel a natural product?
Click to expand...
That's actually an interesting question - what is natural? After all, the rubber found on the end of pool cue butts is vulcanized, so that's not exactly "natural," and stainless steel is mainly made from substances found in nature.

Uranium is found in nature, but I would not want uranium in my cue, although I'm OK with rubber, because although rubber is vulcanized to make it durable, it's non-toxic (and I can't think of any more-natural substitute for rubber).

Without getting too pedantic about "what is natural?" I suppose I'm mainly after a certain minimally-processed aesthetic. Maybe this is because I'm new to taking pool seriously, so I want to see how the most minimalist cue would shoot. If I ever get what I'm after, maybe I'll use it for a bit and then decide I like metal pins and phenolic joints better. I suppose the least-processed cue would be made from a single piece of maple with a leather tip glued to it, maybe using a ferrule made of animal horn, but it's hard to transport one-piece cues (although I may have just talked myself into it).

As an aside, I do find it kind of odd that pros use two-piece cues. I'd think eliminating the joint would eliminate a potential flaw - nobody uses two-piece baseball bats, or two-piece golf clubs. But again, I don't know that much, so I'm just musing.
 
Minnesota Phat

Minnesota Phat

Active member
Thanks guys for the suggestions! I'm checking out Mariposa cues, Chris Starkey, and Ron Kilby.

It looks like I might have to get back onto Facebook (cringe) for cue research purposes.
 
S

Ssonerai

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm a 50 years pro woodwhacker/occasional amateur cue maker.
Full splice only, prefer no metal, but i do think linen and canvas phenolic are natural products. :)
Phenolic is essentially an analog of lignin, which is what holds the cellulose in wood together. (Instead of linen/cellulose).
Besides refusing commissions, one of the reasons i seldom sell a cue is because i refuse to work with finishes that are un-natural. :)
Only fresh made shellac from flakes. Some times some oil over (not under). Some wax buffed out.
I do use G10 pins, which are glass reinforced epoxy.

I do use hot hide glue to restore antiques including work on antique pool tables that were build with it. But not on cues.
If you chose to use hot hide glue (not the stuff in bottles) and used shellac for sealer and finish, you could essentially make the cue you want, and it would essentially be how most cues were made before the 1940's except metal joint pins and some metal ferules. As others note, use horn or antler for the joint and tip ferules. Full splice gives you a wider range of weight and balance options without adding a metal weight. It could be a fine cue, but it is not the cue most people want these days.

It also works from both directions - make that style cue, and the maker is limited as to what the market will pay. So probably not much interest in making them as a general rule.

smt
 
Minnesota Phat

Minnesota Phat

Active member
Ssonerai said:
I'm a 50 years pro woodwhacker/occasional amateur cue maker.
Full splice only, prefer no metal, but i do think linen and canvas phenolic are natural products. :)
Phenolic is essentially an analog of lignin, which is what holds the cellulose in wood together. (Instead of linen/cellulose).
Besides refusing commissions, one of the reasons i seldom sell a cue is because i refuse to work with finishes that are un-natural. :)
Only fresh made shellac from flakes. Some times some oil over (not under). Some wax buffed out.
I do use G10 pins, which are glass reinforced epoxy.

I do use hot hide glue to restore antiques including work on antique pool tables that were build with it. But not on cues.
If you chose to use hot hide glue (not the stuff in bottles) and used shellac for sealer and finish, you could essentially make the cue you want, and it would essentially be how most cues were made before the 1940's except metal joint pins and some metal ferules. As others note, use horn or antler for the joint and tip ferules. Full splice gives you a wider range of weight and balance options without adding a metal weight. It could be a fine cue, but it is not the cue most people want these days.

It also works from both directions - make that style cue, and the maker is limited as to what the market will pay. So probably not much interest in making them as a general rule.

smt
Click to expand...
Interesting - now hide glue and full-splice are on my wish list.

I'm grateful for phenolic resin, because it makes great pool balls without killing elephants, although I despise phenolic tips.

I bet I'd love a pre-1940s cue, if I could find one.

I wonder about what people want these days - I don't know about "most people," but I think my aesthetic is shared by a fair number of people. A lot of people seem to like "wood to wood" joints, so I bet those same people would like a wood pin also. Similarly, a lot of people seem to share my dislike of phenolic tips - Samsara seems to be doing good business.

The one issue that pulls me away from all-natural cues is that I want low deflection, but wouldn't it be possible to hollow out the shaft and put some low-density wood in there (instead of foam)? I'm curious about what Joss' "The Natural" shaft fills the hollowed-out portion with.

I've seen claims of low-deflection qualities in solid shafts, like the Hsunami, or Schmelke's SKS Kielwood shafts. I suspect that these aren't as LD as the hollowed-out shafts, but they might represent a good compromise between minimizing squirt and maximizing feel. I'm not sure I'm sold on LD anyway - it seems to limit some of the most fun shots (masses and jumps), and switching between a playing cue, a masse cue, a jump cue, and a break cue is cumbersome.

I appreciate your aesthetic. I do some landscaping sometimes, and I won't work for anyone who uses non-organic poisons. I suspect that using shellac is much safer than using the synthetic alternatives.

I'm jealous of you guys with woodworking skills - I find cue-making fascinating, but it would probably take me years to learn enough to be able to make a good cue. My current fantasy has me dragging home a log or three and channeling the spirit of the forest into the perfect playing cue - LOL.

I Googled "hide glue," and found this interesting article about the subject - do you agree with this guy?: https://blog.lddavis.com/hide-glue-strength-for-woodworking-applications

Happy Shooting!
 
S

Ssonerai

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
but wouldn't it be possible to hollow out the shaft and put some low-density wood in there (instead of foam)?
Click to expand...

I just drill the shafts, between 5" & 9" back from the tip.
I think others on here do as well. though some big maker/johnny-come-lately took out a patent on it.

Your link does not work for me. Says" check for spelling errors" or WTTE.

Where do you live in the world? (state? city if you like.)

smt
 
Minnesota Phat

Minnesota Phat

Active member
Cool - do you fill it with foam?

Obtaining a patent requires novelty and no prior use by others. I'd be curious as to the specific patent you're talking about, but honestly it sounds like someone is pulling your leg. I'm not a patent attorney, but I know a little about patents, and a patent that says "drill a five to nine inch hole in the end of a pool cue shaft" doesn't pass the smell test, except maybe if it was patented in 1815, in which case that patent is expired.

Weird - the link works for me. You can just Google: Hide Glue Strength for Woodworking Applications Lddavis and it'll be the first article to pop up. Basically he says hide glue is better, contrary to what others say.

I live in Minnesota, and regularly commune with the ghost of Minnesota Fats, even though he was from New York (although he preferred Nashville) - he agrees with me about elephants, and wants me to promote "Honolulu 8-Ball," which is a game he invented in heaven. ;P
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top