Am I Steering?

[Sloppy Pockets]

CB last, OB last... or maybe neither one.

I've been going through my monthly shotmaking meltdown, where out of nowhere, no matter what I do, I can't seem to make a hard shot to save my life. During these episodes I'll go back to the basics and try to re-establish a good PSR. I'll concentrate on stance, alignment, stroking straight with just the elbow moving, relaxing my grip hand, pausing at final address, and just getting up off the shot if it don't look right. More often than not, I just work my way through this by grinding away at the table until it clicks for me and the balls start finding their way into the pockets again. I usually don't know what changed or when, but all of a sudden I'll start seeing the angles correctly and trusting my stroke to follow the right line to the OB.

I've tried looking at the CB last, only because some say that works better for them. And it does... for a while. Then I realize that's not the underlying problem when I start missing again. I'll try using TOI, or at least my version on it, but eventually that fails too and I start to miss. I'll shoot every shot with low outside and they all go in the hole, until they don't anymore. The problem seems to be more fundamental than any of that, like my arm and my brain suddenly part ways for a while and stop communicating with each other.

Yesterday I got so upset with myself that I seriously thought of giving up. I couldn't make the simplest of shots, ones you should be able to make with your eyes closed. Then I remembered somewhere on the forum somebody was talking about if you have a good PSR and a straight stroke, you should be able to make a ball without even looking at the shot. Just turn your head, or even close your eyes and the shot should go just like if you were looking at it.

So, I threw all the balls on the table and started to hit them around, taking random shots without worrying about shape at all, just cinching balls, but with my eyes closed during the final back stroke and forward stroke. I missed the first few, but not by much. Then all of a sudden they started going in. I'd take my time getting aligned, sight the shot, take several small practice strokes to lock in my stroke, then close my eyes and let my stroke out. I made 10 in a row, only missing when all I had that was makable was a long bank. I missed that one and ran out the rest of the rack. So I did it again and made every makable ball, even some tough long cuts, but leaving myself hooked a couple times because I wasn't at all concerned with whitey. This is better than I usually shoot with my eyes open!

So, why am I having these meltdowns and inconsistencies all the time? Obvious to me, my aiming is good, my stroke is sound, I'm hitting the CB in the center, or else the balls would never roll into the hole with my eyes closed. The only thing I can think of is doubt. Doubt in my ability to make the shot at hand, and then unconsciously steering the cue along the wrong line at the last minute. If so, how can I get past this? If not, what the heck is going on? I've been struggling with this problem ever since I started to play again a few years ago. When I was a kid I seemed to make everything. I've attributed my crappy shooting to being too old, and having too many years between active playing times in my life. Is it possible to get back some of my shooting skills as a youth just by learning to trust in myself again?

Sorry for the long rant, I'm just very frustrated with my progress. This is the first time in my life I've had my own table to practice on. I've read so much, bought quality instructional material (CJ's stuff, Ray Martin's DVD, Tor Lowry's wonderful free lessons on YT, Max Eberle's stuff, etc.), paid attention to what the better players say here, watch the pros constantly, and understand the game way better than I ever did, but all I seem to do is sit and spin my wheels and not advance at all like I'd like to. At 61 I'm not kidding myself that I'll finally become a B player, but I don't even consider myself to be a good C player any more I'm so inconsistent. Where do I go from here?

 

[Tony_in_MD]

The quickest advice I can give is don't think when you are down on the ball.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

[thintowin]

first question: do these blackouts happen in competition, in other words are u playing for more than pool time. if these dreaded sabbaticals occur under duress them maybe it's as simple as adjusting your approach to the game. perhaps it's as simple as u direct your energy toward the table than your opponent. plat the table and not the player sounds easy but if u are opponent centered and have been do this for decades then it will be a huge adjustment, good luck if this helps, but u may just have gremlins in your game, and good luck with that one!

 

[ctyhntr]

Do you have access to a video camera, or a smart phone with a video record feature? Try recording yourself and see what you observe.

 

[row21097]

Welcome to my world. Try this:

http://wine.woot.com/

mix it with a little blood preasure medication, it may not make you play better but you won't care as much.

Bert

 

[Tramp Steamer]

Don't worry about it. Life is too short. And, at you're age, damned short.
Eat drink and be Mary, or Miley, or whom ever. A "B" is always better than a "C".

 

[FranCrimi]

Where do you go from here?

Just a guess here: Don't cinch balls so much. Practice letting your stroke out rather than trying to control too much. What's the worst that could happen --- a miss? So go ahead and miss. Learn to trust your stroke. Learn the art of letting go and you will be pleasantly surprised.

It's a funny game. We sometimes think that containment equals control, when in fact, it's the opposite.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Hi Fran,

I know just what you mean. Whenever I'm playing & I mis a shot that I should not & I know that it was well 'aimed', I'll say that I must have leprosy in my arm. I'll swing it around a couple of times, which really does nothing. But... when I go back to the table, I'll really stroke the next few shots & let my stroke out.

How does one do that with a fixed elbow stroke? Is it just hitting harder?

I would give my thoughts on it, but if I do, I will be accused of 'something'.

So perhaps your thoughts on how to do it, or what it means to do it for a fixed elbow stroke might help someone.

Best Wishes as Always,
Rick

PS I for one am glad to see you posting in the main.

 

[naji]

CB last, OB last... or maybe neither one.

I've been going through my monthly shotmaking meltdown, where out of nowhere, no matter what I do, I can't seem to make a hard shot to save my life. During these episodes I'll go back to the basics and try to re-establish a good PSR. I'll concentrate on stance, alignment, stroking straight with just the elbow moving, relaxing my grip hand, pausing at final address, and just getting up off the shot if it don't look right. More often than not, I just work my way through this by grinding away at the table until it clicks for me and the balls start finding their way into the pockets again. I usually don't know what changed or when, but all of a sudden I'll start seeing the angles correctly and trusting my stroke to follow the right line to the OB.

I've tried looking at the CB last, only because some say that works better for them. And it does... for a while. Then I realize that's not the underlying problem when I start missing again. I'll try using TOI, or at least my version on it, but eventually that fails too and I start to miss. I'll shoot every shot with low outside and they all go in the hole, until they don't anymore. The problem seems to be more fundamental than any of that, like my arm and my brain suddenly part ways for a while and stop communicating with each other.

Yesterday I got so upset with myself that I seriously thought of giving up. I couldn't make the simplest of shots, ones you should be able to make with your eyes closed. Then I remembered somewhere on the forum somebody was talking about if you have a good PSR and a straight stroke, you should be able to make a ball without even looking at the shot. Just turn your head, or even close your eyes and the shot should go just like if you were looking at it.

So, I threw all the balls on the table and started to hit them around, taking random shots without worrying about shape at all, just cinching balls, but with my eyes closed during the final back stroke and forward stroke. I missed the first few, but not by much. Then all of a sudden they started going in. I'd take my time getting aligned, sight the shot, take several small practice strokes to lock in my stroke, then close my eyes and let my stroke out. I made 10 in a row, only missing when all I had that was makable was a long bank. I missed that one and ran out the rest of the rack. So I did it again and made every makable ball, even some tough long cuts, but leaving myself hooked a couple times because I wasn't at all concerned with whitey. This is better than I usually shoot with my eyes open!

So, why am I having these meltdowns and inconsistencies all the time? Obvious to me, my aiming is good, my stroke is sound, I'm hitting the CB in the center, or else the balls would never roll into the hole with my eyes closed. The only thing I can think of is doubt. Doubt in my ability to make the shot at hand, and then unconsciously steering the cue along the wrong line at the last minute. If so, how can I get past this? If not, what the heck is going on? I've been struggling with this problem ever since I started to play again a few years ago. When I was a kid I seemed to make everything. I've attributed my crappy shooting to being too old, and having too many years between active playing times in my life. Is it possible to get back some of my shooting skills as a youth just by learning to trust in myself again?

Sorry for the long rant, I'm just very frustrated with my progress. This is the first time in my life I've had my own table to practice on. I've read so much, bought quality instructional material (CJ's stuff, Ray Martin's DVD, Tor Lowry's wonderful free lessons on YT, Max Eberle's stuff, etc.), paid attention to what the better players say here, watch the pros constantly, and understand the game way better than I ever did, but all I seem to do is sit and spin my wheels and not advance at all like I'd like to. At 61 I'm not kidding myself that I'll finally become a B player, but I don't even consider myself to be a good C player any more I'm so inconsistent. Where do I go from here?

The reason you are frustrated is you let what people say about pool sink into your head, stuff like, "you do not have talent, just relax, do not think about it, subconscious stuff, natural ability" all that is none since. The fact is pool is extremely hard game, multiple variables have to be all right at same time to make a ball in the hole. The bad news it takes time to master, the good news if you have the time you will get there.
Look, as a C or B you have to think your shot through, how hard to hit CB, stun or role, english, no english, throw, swerve, CB deflection (squirt) elevation, follow through, so all of this effect where you aim, lastly bridge length-momentum evaluation. Once you advance, these become natural, but some thinking will be required, as you become close to a pro, your position play becomes much better and your shots will be easier and much less thinking required to pocket a ball, but will always need to evaluate position play.
watch your cue while warming up, ensure your hand / cue movement is straight, ensure slow backward swing after pause.

Best of luck. Do not give up.

 

[FranCrimi]

Hi Fran,

I know just what you mean. Whenever I'm playing & I mis a shot that I should not & I know that it was well 'aimed', I'll say that I must have leprosy in my arm. I'll swing it around a couple of times, which really does nothing. But... when I go back to the table, I'll really stroke the next few shots & let my stroke out.

How does one do that with a fixed elbow stroke? Is it just hitting harder?

I would give my thoughts on it, but if I do, I will be accused of 'something'.

So perhaps your thoughts on how to do it, or what it means to do it for a fixed elbow stroke might help someone.

Best Wishes as Always,
Rick

PS I for one am glad to see you posting in the main.

Thanks. Good question, Rick. There's no doubt that players with a fixed elbow stroke are limited when compared with elbow-droppers when it comes to letting their stroke out.

However, there are many players who fall far short of the maximum boundary of a fixed elbow stroke. So if they are fixed-elbow-strokers, there's probably some room for them to expand their strokes a little.

There are some players who flat-out refuse, for whatever reason, to let their stroke out beyond a fixed elbow stroke. Yet, they freely drop their elbow when they break. I try to encourage them to think out of the box and pretend they're shooting a break shot in slow motion --- shooting shots on an open table --- to really let their stroke out just as an exercise, for the experience of it. I think it helps get a player out of that feeling of confinement and stiffness.

But it also means giving up that feeling of being in control, which is very hard for some personalities. I think it's important for players to realize that confinement is not control. It's just confinement.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Thanks for the replies. Too bad my thread had to be hijacked once again and turned into a pendulum vs. piston stroke thread.

If you read the title, it was supposed to be about finding out if I'm inadvertently steering the stoke. That's it. Best answer was the shortest one - that I'm probably thinking too much when down on the shot. Which, if you knew me, you would realize is well within my nature to do so. Thank you, Tony. :wink:

"Letting my stroke out" to me does not mean to drive the cue hard to achieve a power stroke. Maybe that is the correct definition, but what I meant by using that term is to let my arm accelerate the cue smoothly and not hold back on it. That seems to me to be the best way to achieve either power or finesse, and greater stroke accuracy would naturally follow. When I doubt my visuals, I also feel I just cannot get a good stroke on the ball, and I suspect that is because I change cue travel direction in mid stream. This also causes me to miss. I think that by taking away the final visuals entirely, my arm moves in a natural straight line, and the stroke just feels good. And the balls, apparently, find their way into the pockets then. At least so far.

As far as the major hijack here, well, that's OK... I'll just start another thread since this one is already ruined. That's what I'm supposed to do when this person rides into a thread with his own agenda, right? Of maybe just find another forum to post on, 'cause I'm totally sick of this shit. I've already received a long and very detailed explanation of how I might go about solving this problem via PM. It came from a well-regarded member here, whose name I will withhold, but will say that this person is very tired of being stalked here and having everything he says pulled apart under the guise of helping. Sadly, this person used to be one of my very favorite contributors here.

FWIW I have had to resort to reporting the trolling individual to the police. We've all been warned by Mr. Wilson that this can take both parties down at the same time, but I'm cool with that. I can take one for the team. Besides, I'm not getting anything out of this place if every question I ask gets run over my some troll poster. Might as well get a short vacay if it will help clear up the BS around here. Good thing is, it will be my first, and it will be a lot shorter than the other party's will be.:smile:

 

[ENGLISH!]

Thanks. Good question, Rick. There's no doubt that players with a fixed elbow stroke are limited when compared with elbow-droppers when it comes to letting their stroke out.

However, there are many players who fall far short of the maximum boundary of a fixed elbow stroke. So if they are fixed-elbow-strokers, there's probably some room for them to expand their strokes a little.

There are some players who flat-out refuse, for whatever reason, to let their stroke out beyond a fixed elbow stroke. Yet, they freely drop their elbow when they break. I try to encourage them to think out of the box and pretend they're shooting a break shot in slow motion --- shooting shots on an open table --- to really let their stroke out just as an exercise, for the experience of it. I think it helps get a player out of that feeling of confinement and stiffness.

But it also means giving up that feeling of being in control, which is very hard for some personalities. I think it's important for players to realize that confinement is not control. It's just confinement.

Thanks Fran.

You made some good points. I hope some of those 'confined personalities' see them for their honest good intentions, as was mine.

You always answer questions. I could go on, but...

I'll just leave it at that, so as to not add to anyone's false perception of me trying to 'de-rail' the tread.

Again. Thanks. I hope it helped someone that might just be reading the thread.

Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[FranCrimi]

Thanks for the replies. Too bad my thread had to be hijacked once again and turned into a pendulum vs. piston stroke thread.

If you read the title, it was supposed to be about finding out if I'm inadvertently steering the stoke. That's it. Best answer was the shortest one - that I'm probably thinking too much when down on the shot. Which, if you knew me, you would realize is well within my nature to do so. Thank you, Tony. :wink:

"Letting my stroke out" to me does not mean to drive the cue hard to achieve a power stroke. Maybe that is the correct definition, but what I meant by using that term is to let my arm accelerate the cue smoothly and not hold back on it. That seems to me to be the best way to achieve either power or finesse, and greater stroke accuracy would naturally follow. When I doubt my visuals, I also feel I just cannot get a good stroke on the ball, and I suspect that is because I change cue travel direction in mid stream. This also causes me to miss. I think that by taking away the final visuals entirely, my arm moves in a natural straight line, and the stroke just feels good. And the balls, apparently, find their way into the pockets then. At least so far.

As far as the major hijack here, well, that's OK... I'll just start another thread since this one is already ruined. That's what I'm supposed to do when this person rides into a thread with his own agenda, right? Of maybe just find another forum to post on, 'cause I'm totally sick of this shit. I've already received a long and very detailed explanation of how I might go about solving this problem via PM. It came from a well-regarded member here, whose name I will withhold, but will say that this person is very tired of being stalked here and having everything he says pulled apart under the guise of helping. Sadly, this person used to be one of my very favorite contributors here.

FWIW I have had to resort to reporting the trolling individual to the police. We've all been warned by Mr. Wilson that this can take both parties down at the same time, but I'm cool with that. I can take one for the team. Besides, I'm not getting anything out of this place if every question I ask gets run over my some troll poster. Might as well get a short vacay if it will help clear up the BS around here. Good thing is, it will be my first, and it will be a lot shorter than the other party's will be.:smile:

I'm shocked. I thought I was helping in answering your question and then elaborated a bit more when answering Rick's question about the term 'letting your stroke out.' He was right on target in asking for a distinction there.

I've seen you play. I think it would do you well to experiment with expanding on your arm swing a bit. Sorry, but that's how I feel. You might see some noticeable difference for the better in your swing timing. I work hard trying to help players and I don't give advice lightly, nor do I offer canned responses.

 

[FranCrimi]

Thanks Fran.

You made some good points. I hope some of those 'confined personalities' see them for their honest good intentions, as was mine.

You always answer questions. I could go on, but...

I'll just leave it at that, so as to not add to anyone's false perception of me trying to 'de-rail' the tread.

Again. Thanks. I hope it helped someone that might just be reading the thread.

Best Wishes,
Rick

Rick, how about just sticking to the subject matter and letting go of innuendos? After all, if you want to stop getting hateful responses, you can start by keeping it lighter than the above.

Please, do not drag me into your wars --- and that goes for both of you. If I want to enter into a war I am perfectly capable of doing it entirely on my own.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick, how about just sticking to the subject matter and letting go of innuendos? After all, if you want to stop getting hateful responses, you can start by keeping it lighter than the above.

Please, do not drag me into your wars --- and that goes for both of you. If I want to enter into a war I am perfectly capable of doing it entirely on my own.

Fran,

That was not my intention. Sorry.

I just respond in kind. That is the football player in me.

I am fairly sure that most of the previous 'innuendo' was directed at me.

Sorry again. You are correct. My response was not placed appropriately.

My bad, as they say.

Please accept my apology.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[FranCrimi]

And one other thing I want to say....All this behind the scenes, PM - ing. Really, guys? When someone asks my advice in a PM, do you know what I say? I say, post it up and I'll answer the question along with everyone else.

Who else does that?

Anyone here?

Of course not. Someone might disagree with you or stalk you, heaven forbid.

The male ego is truly a fragile thing, isn't it? And you guys complain about women being too sensitive?

Gimme a break.

What's your thing now --- Someone posts a question and you answer it in a PM because you don't want to be stalked?

Unbelievable!

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Sloppy,

Glad to help, though my answer was short it was thoughtful and i am sorry if it sounded canned. Unlike many i do not have a computer available to me any more and i participate on these threads with an iphone. It is painful typing a response and i have to be extremely motivated to want to type more than a few sentences. So i have been trying to keep my responses short and sweet. Your description of the difference in shooting with your eyes closed told to me what I believe could be a cause of your problem.

Besides it has been my experience that the lessons we learn the best are the ones we solve ourselves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I'm shocked. I thought I was helping in answering your question and then elaborated a bit more when answering Rick's question about the term 'letting your stroke out.' He was right on target in asking for a distinction there.

I've seen you play. I think it would do you well to experiment with expanding on your arm swing a bit. Sorry, but that's how I feel. You might see some noticeable difference for the better in your swing timing. I work hard trying to help players and I don't give advice lightly, nor do I offer canned responses.

Whoa, there! I'm not attacking you. You know I hold you in high regard. It's this incessant crap coming from another channel that's pissing me off. Please do not take offense where none is meant.

As far as my stroke goes, you only saw one part of me that day. I do a lot of experimenting, and I can really let my stroke out once I'm warmed up. I got off a four-hour bus ride that day and practically ran a mile and a half to make it to Amsterdam because I was running so late. I was beat and very tight feeling - not a good time to access my stroke (which, BTW, you didn't seem to have a problem with when I asked).

Fixed elbow, dropped elbow (I do both at different times according to some videos I've made of myself), doesn't matter to me. I still believe that the basis for a good stroke begins with the elbow joint first, wrist second, and shoulder last. I don't think about these things when I'm shooting, but after I shoot I try to notice how smooth my stroke felt. If I punched it, it's usually because I tried to force it rather than let the arm swing naturally. We all have bad days, and even on good days we sometime hit the ball horribly. That's the way it goes in almost any athletic endeavor.

In the meantime, please accept my apologies if you feel I have slighted you in any way. You seem to have a good rapport with Rick, and that's your business, but it sure seems to me that he is trying to use you as a shield to hide behind as he makes his attacks on other established instructors (and lately, lowly me). In the meantime, I'll work on my stroke as always and hope this little fracas doesn't interfere with my ability to work with you in the future.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Whoa, there! I'm not attacking you. You know I hold you in high regard. It's this incessant crap coming from another channel that's pissing me off. Please do not take offense where none is meant.

As far as my stroke goes, you only saw one part of me that day. I do a lot of experimenting, and I can really let my stroke out once I'm warmed up. I got off a four-hour bus ride that day and practically ran a mile and a half to make it to Amsterdam because I was running so late. I was beat and very tight feeling - not a good time to access my stroke (which, BTW, you didn't seem to have a problem with when I asked).

Fixed elbow, dropped elbow (I do both at different times according to some videos I've made of myself), doesn't matter to me. I still believe that the basis for a good stroke begins with the elbow joint first, wrist second, and shoulder last. I don't think about these things when I'm shooting, but after I shoot I try to notice how smooth my stroke felt. If I punched it, it's usually because I tried to force it rather than let the arm swing naturally. We all have bad days, and even on good days we sometime hit the ball horribly. That's the way it goes in almost any athletic endeavor.

In the meantime, please accept my apologies if you feel I have slighted you in any way. You seem to have a good rapport with Rick, and that's your business, but it sure seems to me that he is trying to use you as a shield to hide behind as he makes his attacks on other established instructors (and lately, lowly me). In the meantime, I'll work on my stroke as always and hope this little fracas doesn't interfere with my ability to work with you in the future.

:ignore:________:ignore:

No... it's just not worth it.

 

[FranCrimi]

Whoa, there! I'm not attacking you. You know I hold you in high regard. It's this incessant crap coming from another channel that's pissing me off. Please do not take offense where none is meant.

As far as my stroke goes, you only saw one part of me that day. I do a lot of experimenting, and I can really let my stroke out once I'm warmed up. I got off a four-hour bus ride that day and practically ran a mile and a half to make it to Amsterdam because I was running so late. I was beat and very tight feeling - not a good time to access my stroke (which, BTW, you didn't seem to have a problem with when I asked).

Fixed elbow, dropped elbow (I do both at different times according to some videos I've made of myself), doesn't matter to me. I still believe that the basis for a good stroke begins with the elbow joint first, wrist second, and shoulder last. I don't think about these things when I'm shooting, but after I shoot I try to notice how smooth my stroke felt. If I punched it, it's usually because I tried to force it rather than let the arm swing naturally. We all have bad days, and even on good days we sometime hit the ball horribly. That's the way it goes in almost any athletic endeavor.

In the meantime, please accept my apologies if you feel I have slighted you in any way. You seem to have a good rapport with Rick, and that's your business, but it sure seems to me that he is trying to use you as a shield to hide behind as he makes his attacks on other established instructors (and lately, lowly me). In the meantime, I'll work on my stroke as always and hope this little fracas doesn't interfere with my ability to work with you in the future.

Our strokes are always a work in progress. I can see an awful lot in people who come to me for help, and it goes beyond what I see at the table at that one moment in time. A person's pool game is an all-encompassing thing, from physicality to personality. It's all part of the package.

You wrote in your first post that you were cinching balls. I pay attention to stuff like that.

I watched how this whole business of Rick against the world got started. He challenged the theory of some instructors here. When he continued to challenge them, even after they felt they gave him answers to their own satisfaction, they became upset and resorted to name-calling. Then Rick fought back in his own way.

Weren't they doing the same thing in challenging CJ? Yet, they felt their challenges were justified, but Rick's weren't because he was challenging them.

You're right. I didn't have any problem with him because if I didn't know the answer, I said I didn't know and I didn't become insulted if he didn't agree with me.

However, now things have escalated to the point where everyone is in each others faces automatically. That's bad stuff. We might as well be in the Middle East because without someone putting their ego on the shelf, there is no solution.

If I'm not mistaken, a favorite line of Randy G's is: "Leave your ego at the door." Maybe this would be a good place to start.