Amateur events are killing the sport of pool
- Thread starter B_White
- Start date
promoter of amateur events
i started amateur events for people who are trying to get to b.whites
tony waston larry nevell stevie moores speed.its for people that can play
good but cant compete with guys like yall.you all are great players not taking anything away from
any of you .but lets give these other guys and girls the chance to get where yall have aready gotten.
i started amateur events for people who are trying to get to b.whites
tony waston larry nevell stevie moores speed.its for people that can play
good but cant compete with guys like yall.you all are great players not taking anything away from
any of you .but lets give these other guys and girls the chance to get where yall have aready gotten.
:grin-square: :grin-square:
I think the point Brian is trying to make is that you probably wont find ANY top player who participated in anything less than open events when coming up. The ONLY way to get better is to be around better players, and you don't get that by playing only in amateur events. There is nothing wrong with playing in weaker tourneys, it just sucks that they look like they might supplant the stronger tourneys that typically mold better players-Matt
B_White said:
I agree with this totally. Some "system" is needed that prevents TD's from arbitrarily deciding who is eligible to compete. Time and time again, I've seen TD's give into pressure and not allow a "strong amateur" to compete based on complaints from other players.
WOW!!! What a topic with many angles to approach!
I founded the Gateway Amateur Tour in the St. Louis/Metro East area in 2005. At that time it was 9 ball, for B+ level and below, basically your APA 6's and below with a few 7's allowed.
We are now in our 3rd year and have adjusted our format to 8 ball (10x the amount of 8ball players over 9ball players), allow A level and below to participate (BCA Masters and up excluded).
What we need, IMO and experience, is 3 tiers in pool.
1) Amateur- BCA Masters and above excluded
2) Open- Any player not listed as a PRO.
3) Pro- Only those that have proven themselves on the OPEN circuit and in Pro events.
It's the choice of the individual player(s) if they want to excel at this sport or maintain a recreational level of talent, so why punish some and hold back others?
If you're too good to play in the Amateur events, then you have the Open events, if you're too good to play in the Open events, then you have the Pro events. No matter what, you have to start at the bottom and work your way up, IF you want to excel and become a better player!
I think there are Open events currently out there that should eliminate/exclude ANY PRO from participating and leave it to those players that are not allowed to play in Amateur events, but are not quite good enough for the Pro Tour. This would allow that borderline Amateur/Open player to step up to the Open and play better, but beatable, players and not have to play the Pro's... YET!
I'm in the process of going NATIONAL with the Gateway Amateur Tour concept under the name Zim's Rack Amateur Pool Tours (APT). We will have AMATEUR TOUR events in different regions and have a Final Tour Championship in the St. Louis area each year for the top xx players from each tour under Zim's Rack APT. I would like to be able to provide a stepping stone to the Open (Viking, Southern Billiards Tour, Midwest 9 Ball, etc) events and likewise for the Open to be a stepping stone to the Pro events.
All this talk about the pros/cons of Amateur, Open and Pro events is nothing but blowing smoke, unless we (promotors, players, pool room owners) can come together and form an alliance and create a structured ladder to the Pro level. Give the young guns something to look forward to and something for the beginners/average players to have a chance to play in. Mike Janis has a great idea for the US Pro Tour and I personally hope that it gets started soon and we can work on this alliance and structured ladder... the future of our sport is in our (anyone interested in pool) hands.
Best of luck to everyone at whatever level you compete at! Anyone interested in Zim's Rack APT, just do a search here on AZ for Zim's Rack APT or visit our site, www.zimsrack.com.
Thanks,
Zim
I founded the Gateway Amateur Tour in the St. Louis/Metro East area in 2005. At that time it was 9 ball, for B+ level and below, basically your APA 6's and below with a few 7's allowed.
We are now in our 3rd year and have adjusted our format to 8 ball (10x the amount of 8ball players over 9ball players), allow A level and below to participate (BCA Masters and up excluded).
What we need, IMO and experience, is 3 tiers in pool.
1) Amateur- BCA Masters and above excluded
2) Open- Any player not listed as a PRO.
3) Pro- Only those that have proven themselves on the OPEN circuit and in Pro events.
It's the choice of the individual player(s) if they want to excel at this sport or maintain a recreational level of talent, so why punish some and hold back others?
If you're too good to play in the Amateur events, then you have the Open events, if you're too good to play in the Open events, then you have the Pro events. No matter what, you have to start at the bottom and work your way up, IF you want to excel and become a better player!
I think there are Open events currently out there that should eliminate/exclude ANY PRO from participating and leave it to those players that are not allowed to play in Amateur events, but are not quite good enough for the Pro Tour. This would allow that borderline Amateur/Open player to step up to the Open and play better, but beatable, players and not have to play the Pro's... YET!
I'm in the process of going NATIONAL with the Gateway Amateur Tour concept under the name Zim's Rack Amateur Pool Tours (APT). We will have AMATEUR TOUR events in different regions and have a Final Tour Championship in the St. Louis area each year for the top xx players from each tour under Zim's Rack APT. I would like to be able to provide a stepping stone to the Open (Viking, Southern Billiards Tour, Midwest 9 Ball, etc) events and likewise for the Open to be a stepping stone to the Pro events.
All this talk about the pros/cons of Amateur, Open and Pro events is nothing but blowing smoke, unless we (promotors, players, pool room owners) can come together and form an alliance and create a structured ladder to the Pro level. Give the young guns something to look forward to and something for the beginners/average players to have a chance to play in. Mike Janis has a great idea for the US Pro Tour and I personally hope that it gets started soon and we can work on this alliance and structured ladder... the future of our sport is in our (anyone interested in pool) hands.
Best of luck to everyone at whatever level you compete at! Anyone interested in Zim's Rack APT, just do a search here on AZ for Zim's Rack APT or visit our site, www.zimsrack.com.
Thanks,
Zim
I think Mike Janis has a very good speed clocking ability and if you win one or more of his open events you can't play in the amateur events and also if you win two of the amateur events you can't play in them anymore. I know Jamesroberts is from Fla. and maybe dosen't understand how many really good players that leaves elligible to play as an amateur in Viking events, there is plenty of strong players to force you to improve your game. I have been out of work for 1 1/2 years and can't afford a tour card at this time but have been playing in open tournaments for many years and I see the need for no-pro fun events.--Leonard
I think Larry the Truth Nevel is making it hard for the next level underneath his game to win the cash, and Brian would be the same warlord in the amateur events in my worthless opinion.
I think Larry the Truth Nevel is making it hard for the next level underneath his game to win the cash, and Brian would be the same warlord in the amateur events in my worthless opinion.
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OKay so I have read all the posts til now. Good discussion.
I think its odd that people are posting here that tournament are designed or responsible for a player getting better. Thats just not true.
A tournament is just a competitive event. Thats all. Its not designed to
make someone better. The player should work on their own game. Some people are fairly content with their level of play and might not have the time or desire to work on it. Not everyone can be good enough to win or even place in an open regional event no matter how bad they want it.
While I will play in either type event its hard to say that we should not have tournaments for the largest group of pool players. There are hundreds of thousands of bangers and weekend warriors out there and only a small percentage of players good enough to win regional level events. There should be tournaments for both groups.
Using the term PRO when talking about pool is the real issue. Until theres a steady tour with a systematic process of rating then calling someone a PRO is nuts. Just this week a girl in the pool room turned to everyone and asked what determines someone being a Pro in pool. No one could answer. Lots of opinions but no real answer.
IMO anything that gets players playing and keeps them playing is a good thing.
I think its odd that people are posting here that tournament are designed or responsible for a player getting better. Thats just not true.
A tournament is just a competitive event. Thats all. Its not designed to
make someone better. The player should work on their own game. Some people are fairly content with their level of play and might not have the time or desire to work on it. Not everyone can be good enough to win or even place in an open regional event no matter how bad they want it.
While I will play in either type event its hard to say that we should not have tournaments for the largest group of pool players. There are hundreds of thousands of bangers and weekend warriors out there and only a small percentage of players good enough to win regional level events. There should be tournaments for both groups.
Using the term PRO when talking about pool is the real issue. Until theres a steady tour with a systematic process of rating then calling someone a PRO is nuts. Just this week a girl in the pool room turned to everyone and asked what determines someone being a Pro in pool. No one could answer. Lots of opinions but no real answer.
IMO anything that gets players playing and keeps them playing is a good thing.
Zims Rack said:
How can I help?
In the State of Arizona that are over 70 WEEKLY Tournaments for people to play in, some are handicapped under the umbrella of the Arizona Rating System, some are OPEN.
Add to that the Monthly Special Tournaments like $500.00 Guarantee Add Scotch Doubles, Multi Event Tours, etc.
Think we in Arizona do not have a shortage of options to play. Lately we have a SHORTAGE of Player Participation because of the POOR ECONOMY, and GAS or FUEL effecting the price of everything we buy.
Add to that the Monthly Special Tournaments like $500.00 Guarantee Add Scotch Doubles, Multi Event Tours, etc.
Think we in Arizona do not have a shortage of options to play. Lately we have a SHORTAGE of Player Participation because of the POOR ECONOMY, and GAS or FUEL effecting the price of everything we buy.
It isn't primarily about the competition. It is the $$$.tylerdean14 said:
poolcuemaster said:
i do understand how many good players are out there and i guess my only point is that whether you are allowed to play in amateur tourney or not is just if the td likes you....nothing really to do with playin ability, i did say earlier that people that play on a amateur ive been kicked off of offer me weight, so i do respect their games
I see that you're from Tallahassee Florida, awesome area!BigDogatLarge said:
Are you asking how you can help the sport grow in general or about Zim's Rack APT?
What do you currently do on the billiard scene? Are you a league player, tournament player, spectator, league operator, tournament director, pool room owner, retail store owner, cue maker/repairman, etc, what is your career or current job?
How many pool rooms are within an hour radius from Tallahassee that have a minimum of 8 pool tables of the same size at each location and serve food and drinks?
Side Note: Tallahassee is where we are going to retire to in about 4-5 years.
Thanks,
Zim
Frank, you make a good point. I guess my point is more that you need to be around better players if you want to improve, and the open tourneys make a better forum for doing so, especially for those who don't usually have access to good players in their home room. You can do alot to improve your basics and fundamentals, but there is no substitute for learning by example. Especially when it's Johnny making you remember why you sat in the chair for 4 or 5 games:grin:
muttley76 said:
The troubles come into play when 3/4 of most open fields cant place.
Tournaments and league play should only be a small portion of a pool players pool life. People that want to get better need to surround themselves with better players during the other portions.
I have never had much problem playing in some Open events. I have placed in some and not in others. However, I know that I don't have a legit shot at placing high or winning. Facts are facts.
Here in SoCal theres tons of good players at all the monthlys and regional events. I go play in as many as possible but its the same top of the field
every event.
If we had some lower level tournaments that I could play in then I would be more excited and in all honesty would probably play more often.
I used to really enjoy the B and C tournements that Larry ran about Atl years back.
How's the shoulder coming?? Looks like I might be making a trip back in August or early sept.
Shoulder is coming around nicely. Been back playing and golfing for a coupla weeks. This is actually 8-10 weeks ahead of the prognosis after the surgery. In an ironic twist, I'm going to the new Brass rail next weekend for a Viking amateur tourney. Mike(Janis) said he's only going to let me cash in one more before I get barred, so I'm gonna play in this one because it's race to 9 in the winner's side and 7 in the loser's instead of the usual 5 in both. And before anyone accuses me of hypocrisy, I did say that they are a good idea, I would just hate to see them overtake the open events.:smile: . Let me know when you are coming around, I'll have us spot the Athens boys a little something, and maybe we can get 20-25 strokes from them at Grand National. You still play golf?
it just erks me when the TD comes up to me and says, "I'm sorry man, you are just too damn good to play in the amateur event", even though I work full time and never play. I mean, damn, I haven't won an open event in like never.