Amateurs or Open to all???

teambizy

teambizy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hey just wanted to know if anyone else disagrees with this.

1st place

Marc Vidal

$840.00
2nd place

Bill McCollin

$550.00
3rd place

Skip Shumate

$375.00
4th place

Ed Hancock

$190.00
5th place

Jack Wu

$80.00
5th place

Brian Alfredo

$80.00
7th place

Kurt England

$40.00
7th place

Jim Udischas

$40.00

This guy Mark Vidal finished 25th at the dcc in 2006 in the 9ball, and 45th this year in one pocket. Amateur or no? I would really like to hear everyones input on this one.
 
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Tough question

In the world of billiards, is there any generally accepted definition of what an "Amateur" is as opposed to a "Professional"?

Winning money in a big tournament isn't a very good yardstick. A lot of "B" level amateurs have cashed in deep-paying open tournaments such as Reno. On the other hand, if we use a definition of "Pro" that involves making a living from pool, the pro ranks would be considerably smaller.

Ken
 
I agree its a touchy subject. I just find it strange that other players of Mark's caliber are on a list such as the one on the dragonpromotions website while he is not. Derby is made up of some of the best players in the world. No B player is going deep at Derby city without an extreme amount of luck. If thats the case than so be it. I just think the promoters of this tour should be careful who they may allow in to there Amateur tournaments.
 
Aww, that's nuthin.. Look up Adam Wheeler on the player finder. 2004-2005, kept placing extremely high in the King's Bay "Amateur" events. Funny thing was, before that, he had been placing ahead of people like Mario Cruz, Dennis Searing, Tommy Kennedy, Richard Broumpton, etc in the Florida Pro events.

Now don't get me wrong.. I ain't hatin'. It's just that I realize, on some tours, you better shoot pro speed if you want to win the amateur events, because the tournament directors and promoters just want warm bodies. They will not "graduate" certain dominant "amateur" players till everyone starts complaining when one wins multipl events in a row..

Russ
 
Russ Chewning said:
Aww, that's nuthin.. Look up Adam Wheeler on the player finder. 2004-2005, kept placing extremely high in the King's Bay "Amateur" events. Funny thing was, before that, he had been placing ahead of people like Mario Cruz, Dennis Searing, Tommy Kennedy, Richard Broumpton, etc in the Florida Pro events.

Now don't get me wrong.. I ain't hatin'. It's just that I realize, on some tours, you better shoot pro speed if you want to win the amateur events, because the tournament directors and promoters just want warm bodies. They will not "graduate" certain dominant "amateur" players till everyone starts complaining when one wins multipl events in a row..

Russ
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Good Point. Its kind of annoying that this continues to go on.
 
At this time, Marlk Vidal is considered an amateur by the Viking Cue Amateur 9-Ball Tour.

As it stands the criteria for our Amateur Tour is that a player may "NOT" participate in the Viking Cue Amateur events if they have ever won a professional event or an Open Regional Tour event within the last 3 years. At this time, Vidal defineltely qualifies within the amateur category.

Additionally, to help protect the other amateur players on our tour. We have a rule that states if you win 2 Viking Cue Amateur events in one season or place in the top 4 three times you may no longer participate in the Viking Cue Amateur Tour.

This rule has been in place since the beginning of the Viking Cue Amateur 9-Ball Tour. It is designed to help us guard against mistakes and to ensure the natural progression of Amateurs moving up in the ranks of our sport. In the future it is my hope that other amateur tours will follow our lead with a system like this to help guarantee the progression of players through the ranks of the regional tour systems.

Respectfully,

Mj
 
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MikeJanis said:
As it stands the criteria for our Amateur Tour is that a player may participate in the Viking Cue Amateur events if they have ever won a professional event or an Open Regional Tour event within the last 3 years. At this time Vidal defineltely qualifies within the amateur category.

Respectfully,

Mj
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Shouldn't that state "may NOT participate"
 
teambizy said:
Thanks for everyones input into this subject.
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Good subject bizy.

Sorry but I am forced into not giving any input besides questioning grammatical errors that effect the intended meaning of a sentence.

Carry on.
 
Rankings.....tough business

teambizy said:
Hey just wanted to know if anyone else disagrees with this.

1st place,Marc Vidal -$840.00
2nd place-Bill McCollin-$550.00
3rd place-Skip Shumate-$375.00
4th place-Ed Hancock-$190.00
5th place-Jack Wu-$80.00
5th place-Brian Alfredo-$80.00
7th place-Kurt England-$40.00
7th place-Jim Udischas-$40.00

This guy Mark Vidal finished 25th at the dcc in 2006 in the 9ball, and 45th this year in one pocket. Amateur or no? I would really like to hear everyones input on this one.
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I have a monthly event with certain criteria to play. I am constantly having to review players, research various result,review input from other player......still not enough!!....Had to form a council to help with "under the radar" players,road hustlers....etc., forward data to the council, receive info back, defend the council........you get the idea.

Ranking player is VERY tricky business and a lot of work & politics. I love the game and don't mind.Our tournament was conceived to give mid-level players a chance to feel the pressure of the Finals, To have a shot at winning an event so they can go to the "next level" and compete with a little "tournament" seasoning.

I would like to "take my hat off" to Allen Hopkins,Dragon Promotions, Mike Janis and ALL tournament and tour directors that care enough about the future of pool to assemble ANY handicap or mid-level event. It's a labor of love for sure!

Ray
 
I appreciate Mike's participation in this thread as it was a result from his recent tour i was referring to. I have one last question to ask everyones opinion on. Let's say i am a virtual nobody who plays in the U.S. Open. I do great but finish second. Am i an amateur?
 
teambizy said:
I appreciate Mike's participation in this thread as it was a result from his recent tour i was referring to. I have one last question to ask everyones opinion on. Let's say i am a virtual nobody who plays in the U.S. Open. I do great but finish second. Am i an amateur?
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Sounds to me like you would no longer be a "nobody". :p Actually, I think it would be impossible to get that good without making a name for yourself somewhere along the way.
 
Marc "spain" vidal is a local NYC player who has been developing a strong game over the last few years here.

In the local regional tri-state tour, he has progressed from a b player, to an A player. Finally last year he was raised to the open level, but still one notch less than pro speed.

For comparison purposes, you wouldn't be able to put him in the same category (consitantly) with the likes of either tony robles or ginky. Although he might be able to play off a set or two, here and there, it would be a stretch to say he could consistently compete "even".

To Mike janis, considering your specific "requirements, you might have to consider frankie hernandez an amatuer? Although clearly, he plays (most of the time anyway, but perhaps not at an elite level) at a pro speed? How would he get rated?

rg
 
NYC cue dude said:
To Mike janis, considering your specific "requirements, you might have to consider frankie hernandez an amatuer? Although clearly, he plays (most of the time anyway, but perhaps not at an elite level) at a pro speed? How would he get rated? rg
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No on Hernandez. He does not meet our requirements.

$1,500.00 1st place NYC Billiards Tour Stop
$1,200.00 1st place Joss NE 9-Ball Tour Stop 8
$3,200.00 1st place 2003 Joss Northeast Tour Stop 3
$1,400.00 1st place 2001 Joss Northeast Tour Stop 9


Additionally, our guidelines regarding amateur status are a place to help start judgement as to who is and who is not allowed to play. They are not written in stone. There is also a rule that that says "No Top Local Players are allowed to participate". This rule gives each Viking Tour director the ability to help develop his/her region.

Again, we also have a rule to help protect the other amateur players on our tour in case of mistakes or misrepresentations by players. The rule states if you win 2 Viking Cue Amateur events in one season or place in the top 4 three times you may no longer participate in the Viking Cue Amateur Tour.

In my 20 involvement with our sport I have never seen a real system that divides the players by class that can be used nationwide. Right now, this is the best anyone can do right now.

As the events go on we will be able to weed out more and more players and disqualify them as amateurs for our tour and help guarantee their progression towards professional status. It is my hope and goal that amateur players will see how this type of system will benefit them in the near future.
 
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