Amazing Shot!! Explain this!!!

I have question for Ira. Do you think the shot shown in the diagram below can be made without any trickery? Just curious about your thoughts on this shot.

The red ball is BEHIND the yellow ball!

Close Force-follow.jpg

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
 
If I may respond, the shot is the same as the original but much more difficult because of the distance between the balls. You cannot bring back the cue ball without draw, in general, if you see an angle lower than 90 degrees between the cue ball trajectories before and after the impact, something is wrong with the shot.
Also, the curve would be much more pronounced because in the drawing is too close to the red ball, so it's even more difficult than the drawing shows.
 
frigopie said:
If I may respond, the shot is the same as the original but much more difficult because of the distance between the balls. You cannot bring back the cue ball without draw, in general, if you see an angle lower than 90 degrees between the cue ball trajectories before and after the impact, something is wrong with the shot.
Also, the curve would be much more pronounced because in the drawing is too close to the red ball, so it's even more difficult than the drawing shows.
Click to expand...

I apologize for my poor diagraming skills, I'm NOT too great at creating the curve line shape.The CB and OB are only about 1"-2" apart.

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
 
iralee said:
Good question - and this is the point: Physics tells us that lowering the coefficient of friction does not create the bounce-back effect - only a lighter ball can do this.

Bob: as usual, was right all along about the physics.
Hector: Alas, no genius required.
Frigopie: Thanks for running the simulation on your amazing software.
Fox: If you notice my original take, the chosen perspective makes it harder to discern if a small cue ball was used.
Mullyman: time to call out your friend. ;) Don't forget to thank him for the fun challenge.

Now, here's the shot taken again at a less deceiving angle. With the reveal.

Here's another fun impossible 3-cushion shot. And the reveal.

Once again, note that no polish was needed on the small Aramith pool cue ball and the shots are still easily makable.

-Ira
Click to expand...

iralee

Because of the way you handle this post and make a video showing/explaining the shoot.

I will donate $100.00 [thru PayPal] to either the USBA [not to be use for membership, for #1 NonMember RatF@@Ker] or a Tournament of your choice,

Ira you can PM your decide with info or public post your answer in this thread.
 
Billiardshot

You're a class act.How come you don't want to be a member of the USBA.We need people like you.I appreciate the donation towards a Tournament.Keep up the great posts. Also you tell it the way it is. Remember there's a new president of the USBA.Also he is a class person too.
 
billiardshot said:
iralee

Because of the way you handle this post and make a video showing/explaining the shoot.

I will donate $100.00 [thru PayPal] to either the USBA [not to be use for membership, for #1 NonMember RatF@@Ker] or a Tournament of your choice,

Ira you can PM your decide with info or public post your answer in this thread.
Click to expand...

Mighty generous of you, sir.

Please donate the money to the USBA to be directed toward supporting Sir Raymond Ceulemans (travel fund) to come to the US again in July! I'm trying to raise money for this effort.

Thanks again. We need more like you!

-Ira
 
iralee said:
Mighty generous of you, sir.

Please donate the money to the USBA to be directed toward supporting Sir Raymond Ceulemans (travel fund) to come to the US again in July! I'm trying to raise money for this effort.

Thanks again. We need more like you!

-Ira
Click to expand...

Ira.. Will do as request... Should be in Usba hand in less than a hour.

Please keep up the great job you do. and continue showing those video on youtube.
Again Thank you Ira Lee.

Done ... Donation make to USBA, with this message :

Jim Shovak... the money donated to be directed toward Ira Lee. To support Sir Raymond Ceulemans (travel fund) to come to the US again in July! Thank you Bob Watson
 
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mr3cushion said:
I apologize for my poor diagraming skills, I'm NOT too great at creating the curve line shape.The CB and OB are only about 1"-2" apart.

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
Click to expand...

I believe I am familiar with the pattern you are trying to depict. I know accurate pictures are a challenge to create, so understand that I have only to interpret this rough sketch where the difference between possible and impossible is subtle and significant. The fact that the lines are distorted (i.e. cast all the way to the contact points rather than to trace the actual path of the center of the ball) adds confusion. If I go strictly on the exact position of the balls as drawn, the shot is not possible.

The distance between the balls is not as critical as the angle of the tangent line through the contact point between the cue and object ball. If you have intentionally diagrammed a shot which requires the cue ball, with follow, to back up before curving around the obstructing target - then, for the identical reasons discussed in this thread, then you have depicted a shot that is not physically possible (regardless of how much polish or silicone is utilized). Contrary to popular belief, polish/silicone does not facilitate a bounce action back and away from the carom's tangent line if the balls truly weigh the same.

However, if the obstructing ball lies away (a radius + 1mm) from the path of its tangent line, giving the cue ball room to pass - then the shot can be made. In your diagram, this would mean relocating the cue ball just a bit to the left. There is a huge repertoire of fun-to-watch artistic shots that 'edge around' the kisses with similar close-passes.

-Ira
 
billiardshot said:
iralee

Because of the way you handle this post and make a video showing/explaining the shoot.

I will donate $100.00 [thru PayPal] to either the USBA [not to be use for membership, for #1 NonMember RatF@@Ker] or a Tournament of your choice,

Ira you can PM your decide with info or public post your answer in this thread.
Click to expand...

Indeed a class act :smile:. Unlike other who don't put their money where their BIG MOUTH is.:D

Ira: next time you are at Carom I'll buy you a coffee;)
 
iralee said:
In the end, of course it's not a great shot - but a beautiful illusion.

I think the entire presentation is like a good street-magic video: aside from tricky props (pool ball), the truth was further hidden from detection through the carefully chosen camera vantage point. Throw in few suggestive truth claims by the OP ("no trick balls involved. Those are Aramith pros." and the misdirection was complete - but pile on the notion, by a top player, that the shot just MIGHT be possible "under the right conditions", and this is when some of our billiard intuitions flew straight out of the door: "It MUST be true, lest my eyes deceive me!"

Prior to the shot, when the cue ball is furthest away from the camera, our eyes expect it to be minimized due to the distance perspective. When the small pool ball rolls closer to the camera, it appears to grow (pixel-wise) even bigger than the carom object ball, also, as expected. The entire camera shot plays on our ability to discern the appropriate distortions in perspective foreshortening.

For example, this snapshot of the small pool ball next to the large carom ball is extremely believable, even to myself, after the fact:


Note that the size discrepancy of the balls is plainly obvious from almost every other camera angle as it is in real life.

The genius of the presentation is the extremely convincing combination of gimmick and optical illusion - which, without scientific knowledge, would have had all of us fooled as well.

-Ira
Click to expand...

Ira excellent arguments. Other than an explanation from the original shooter, but sure what else is more convincing.
 
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iralee said:
I believe I am familiar with the pattern you are trying to depict. I know accurate pictures are a challenge to create, so understand that I have only to interpret this rough sketch where the difference between possible and impossible is subtle and significant. The fact that the lines are distorted (i.e. cast all the way to the contact points rather than to trace the actual path of the center of the ball) adds confusion. If I go strictly on the exact position of the balls as drawn, the shot is not possible.

The distance between the balls is not as critical as the angle of the tangent line through the contact point between the cue and object ball. If you have intentionally diagrammed a shot which requires the cue ball, with follow, to back up before curving around the obstructing target - then, for the identical reasons discussed in this thread, then you have depicted a shot that is not physically possible (regardless of how much polish or silicone is utilized). Contrary to popular belief, polish/silicone does not facilitate a bounce action back and away from the carom's tangent line if the balls truly weigh the same.

However, if the obstructing ball lies away (a radius + 1mm) from the path of its tangent line, giving the cue ball room to pass - then the shot can be made. In your diagram, this would mean relocating the cue ball just a bit to the left. There is a huge repertoire of fun-to-watch artistic shots that 'edge around' the kisses with similar close-passes.

-Ira
Click to expand...

Ira; Thanks for the reply.

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

P.S. Ira, I was just wondering, is the coffee FREE at Carom Café! :rolleyes:
 
Amazing Shot!! Explain this

As for the original shot in the video for this thread:
I have the great opportunity to play 3 cushion with George Ashby every weekend and I set up the shot and he also believed there had to be a lighter cue ball involved as he didn't see it happening with equal weighted balls. I think I tend to to believe him with his 50 yrs playing 3 cushion.
Just another 2 cents worth.
 
iralee said:
Anytime Bill.
Free coffee? Depends on who its for. ;)

-Ira
Click to expand...

NEVER drank a cup of coffee or smoked a cig in 68 years, I don't think I'll start now! lol

Thanks;
Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

P.S. But, I am thinking about playing in CC tournament in July, IF I can go somewhere to practice for a few weeks.
 
Let me give you directions to Starbucks. Let me buy you a Heineken. Let me knock you unconscious. But for the love of god, whatever you do, don't drink coffee at Carom Cafe. I love the place to bits, but the coffee is 20 % Juan Valdez, 80 % dishwasher waste.
 
Bert van Manen said:
Let me give you directions to Starbucks. Let me buy you a Heineken. Let me knock you unconscious. But for the love of god, whatever you do, don't drink coffee at Carom Cafe. I love the place to bits, but the coffee is 20 % Juan Valdez, 80 % dishwasher waste.
Click to expand...

Bert, You be a FUNNY guy!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
 
Hi All,

I am a pool player (for 50 years +), not a billiards player other than on a rare occasion. I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread, the banter, the input, the science, the videos and the final explanations. Even the testy exchanges.

In an earlier life I ran the engineering arm of a fortune 50 company, so I completely understand (and agree with) the physics that was on display, which is why the thread is especially enjoyable for me.

And a special thanks to Ira Lee, who went to some very convincing lengths to accommodate the posters.

Will Prout
 
ibuycues said:
Hi All,

I am a pool player (for 50 years +), not a billiards player other than on a rare occasion. I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread, the banter, the input, the science, the videos and the final explanations. Even the testy exchanges.

In an earlier life I ran the engineering arm of a fortune 50 company, so I completely understand (and agree with) the physics that was on display, which is why the thread is especially enjoyable for me.

And a special thanks to Ira Lee, who went to some very convincing lengths to accommodate the posters.

Will Prout
Click to expand...

It's always my pleasure. Extra special thanks should also go to frigopie for running the physics simulations and my buddy Herman who held the camera for my 'reveal' videos.

-Ira
 
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