I don't believe this takes anymore money than what is already being spent by the different entities it would involved.
American Pool NEEDS a Real Governing Body
- Thread starter geno
- Start date
I don't believe this takes anymore money than what is already being spent by the different entities it would involved.
I have been involved in the development of organizations similar to what Geno describes and it did NOT require a lot of money to start. It only requires people to become involved (and foot their own expenses). You need a place to meet, such as a community center, and an agenda. Then it depends on commitment. In today's world with access to the internet much less money is needed for intra-organization and public communication. The need is for a small group of like minded individuals. As the organization matures others join and sponsors get involved for "good" causes. In my experience grant money, seed mony or whatever you prefer to call it is not all that difficult to come by if (and its a big if) the goals are good and there is real commitment as eveidenced by work effort.
With well stated acceptable goals and a track record of truly improving the sport for the good of all participants others will join to support the efforts. Consider the number of people who post on AZB and the idea that many of them would support improving the sport.
I am retired from public life or I could easily see getting involved in a good organization. Even in my retirement I suppose there are many things I would be willing to contribute. And I am only one of many people who would like to see the sport improved.
The problem with the ABP is in the idea that they are a "players union" and their motives will always be suspect. They need to expand their horizons and their membership.
With well stated acceptable goals and a track record of truly improving the sport for the good of all participants others will join to support the efforts. Consider the number of people who post on AZB and the idea that many of them would support improving the sport.
I am retired from public life or I could easily see getting involved in a good organization. Even in my retirement I suppose there are many things I would be willing to contribute. And I am only one of many people who would like to see the sport improved.
The problem with the ABP is in the idea that they are a "players union" and their motives will always be suspect. They need to expand their horizons and their membership.
I agree with the original post completely. This needs to happen.
What Coco said on page one about people wanting control of their own pond is true but the only way to slowly remove all those seperateblittle ponds is to connect them and make them part of the same pool.
Exactly what is mentioned in the OP, if people like Barry Berman, Mark Griffin, Greg Sullivan, and others come together to create a sigle body then what you are seeing is the formation of a combined entity that can very easily morph into a single tour, with premier events on that tour then being the US-Open 9-Ball, The Derby City Classic, and the US-Open 10-Ball. And if all of these people are working with each other instead of competing with each other the synergy that can take place would go a long way to starting the slow rise of this sport from it's current woes.
And the road from amature to pro? I have told Mark Griffin before and I will say it again, the league system is primed to be the pool version of the PGA's qualifying school, all he needs is a proper tour which a merger like this could form and cooperation from the other people who would if this went through, be working along side him.
IF people actually put the effort into making this a reality it honestly could be a total 180 for this sport. It will take alot of work and a change in attitudes of many people in this sport but if done right everyone in this sport would prosper greatly from such a body eventually removing the fragmentation in this sport.
What Coco said on page one about people wanting control of their own pond is true but the only way to slowly remove all those seperateblittle ponds is to connect them and make them part of the same pool.
Exactly what is mentioned in the OP, if people like Barry Berman, Mark Griffin, Greg Sullivan, and others come together to create a sigle body then what you are seeing is the formation of a combined entity that can very easily morph into a single tour, with premier events on that tour then being the US-Open 9-Ball, The Derby City Classic, and the US-Open 10-Ball. And if all of these people are working with each other instead of competing with each other the synergy that can take place would go a long way to starting the slow rise of this sport from it's current woes.
And the road from amature to pro? I have told Mark Griffin before and I will say it again, the league system is primed to be the pool version of the PGA's qualifying school, all he needs is a proper tour which a merger like this could form and cooperation from the other people who would if this went through, be working along side him.
IF people actually put the effort into making this a reality it honestly could be a total 180 for this sport. It will take alot of work and a change in attitudes of many people in this sport but if done right everyone in this sport would prosper greatly from such a body eventually removing the fragmentation in this sport.
I agree totally with what everyone is saying here! I have seen everyone say we keep beating a dead horse trying to get this off the ground, but if you look at all the great ideas people have had and continue to come up with, it is just a matter of time before someone pulls the trigger on one or a combination of your ideas:smile:
I started my own league because we had issues with the APA, they did not fit the model the players in my are were acustomed to(NOT Bashing the APA) there was already a league in our area and still is and we have different formats that we like to play. So our area has two leagues that are successfull, a lot of players play in both leagues (board members from each league play in both leagues) and right now I am putting together ideas on how to get local businesses to help sponsor us and we the player give back to the sponsors. Just think this all started because some onesaid you should start your own league
I started my own league because we had issues with the APA, they did not fit the model the players in my are were acustomed to(NOT Bashing the APA) there was already a league in our area and still is and we have different formats that we like to play. So our area has two leagues that are successfull, a lot of players play in both leagues (board members from each league play in both leagues) and right now I am putting together ideas on how to get local businesses to help sponsor us and we the player give back to the sponsors. Just think this all started because some onesaid you should start your own league
United we stand Divided we WILL fall
I guess what this really boils down to is team work, people get rid of the chip on the shoulder come together and make it work for the good of the sport! NO hidden agendas just good old help your neighbor attitude from everyone and you would be surprised what we could do as a whole. (I do not have the ability to take on such a task but would damn sure support it!!)
OK i and of the soap box:thumbup:
I guess what this really boils down to is team work, people get rid of the chip on the shoulder come together and make it work for the good of the sport! NO hidden agendas just good old help your neighbor attitude from everyone and you would be surprised what we could do as a whole. (I do not have the ability to take on such a task but would damn sure support it!!)
OK i and of the soap box:thumbup:
I'm not sure an established event would want to have someone else make decisions going forward about how it will be run. To me, this seems like giving up too much control and not reaping the established benifits.
The Regional tours have been pretty well established. IMO it is difficult to fix something that ISN'T Broken. Leave well enough alone.
Pool Halls will maintian their specific events as long as pool players will support them.
Then I guess this 'Governerning Body' (GB) is only for the Professional Events. Just the big $25K+ added events. Would the GB be a board of promoters? Not one single individual? Would just certain details (from the list Geno provided) be decided?
IMO, it would take more than 6 months to iron out all the details to satisfy the GB. Would the players be represented within (on the board) of the GB?
Lots of little questions, yes, but I feel that the best outcome of a GB would be a business model for all promoters to follow and expectations of making a profit.
I see this as a good thing for the major events and players in those events.
The Regional tours have been pretty well established. IMO it is difficult to fix something that ISN'T Broken. Leave well enough alone.
Pool Halls will maintian their specific events as long as pool players will support them.
Then I guess this 'Governerning Body' (GB) is only for the Professional Events. Just the big $25K+ added events. Would the GB be a board of promoters? Not one single individual? Would just certain details (from the list Geno provided) be decided?
IMO, it would take more than 6 months to iron out all the details to satisfy the GB. Would the players be represented within (on the board) of the GB?
Lots of little questions, yes, but I feel that the best outcome of a GB would be a business model for all promoters to follow and expectations of making a profit.
I see this as a good thing for the major events and players in those events.
It is a great idea (and a great ideal) and I hope it comes to pass. However, it won't happen overnight. It never could.
What needs to happen is to set those goals/ideals/mission in place, and begin a smaller scale plan to work towards those ends. What element of this can we implement now? What can we work towards next year, etc, etc.
With a track record of achieving the smaller goals, you will find it much easier to get "buy in" from the various factions in pool today. And make no mistake, that is essential - without the buy in, the whole plan collapses.
As you show that you are in it for the long haul, working for the greater good, and providing the "what's in it for me" to each faction, you can continue to grow and move the plan towards the desired end.
Even if you had $20 million to drop into the plan tomorrow, without buy in from all concerned you'd still never make it fly. Not in any format that would survive after the $20 million ran out.
What needs to happen is to set those goals/ideals/mission in place, and begin a smaller scale plan to work towards those ends. What element of this can we implement now? What can we work towards next year, etc, etc.
With a track record of achieving the smaller goals, you will find it much easier to get "buy in" from the various factions in pool today. And make no mistake, that is essential - without the buy in, the whole plan collapses.
As you show that you are in it for the long haul, working for the greater good, and providing the "what's in it for me" to each faction, you can continue to grow and move the plan towards the desired end.
Even if you had $20 million to drop into the plan tomorrow, without buy in from all concerned you'd still never make it fly. Not in any format that would survive after the $20 million ran out.
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I just don't see it this way. Not everyone wants control of the pool industry and few regional tours can afford to attract major pros for very long. Sponsorship and dependable sponsorship are totally 2 different things. I dealt with this for 11 years and it is exhausting.
The leagues are one issue and most just recreational and nothing at a ll wrong with that. The rest are risking much in today's economy for little return. The audience just ain't there nor is the related industry.
The one's running the regional tours do it mainly as a labor of love and that too after a while is exhausting and thankless!
The one's running the regional tours do it mainly as a labor of love and that too after a while is exhausting and thankless!
You learned this first hand didn't you Ironman ? Didn't you use to help out on the Fast Eddie's tour ?
Why do you need a body to "control" the pool industry? The industry is already well-established, with national, regional, and local tournaments already being played throughout the country. I think what is really needed is for a single body to "support" the pool industry. I like the model of major league, minor league, and little league (maybe regional? i don't think the geriatrics want to play little league), but no one really needs to create a new process there.
What if there were a player-based organization (or association) that took it upon itself to find the pre-existing tournaments that already have the potential for national draw, and start coordinating with promoters and supporters to start calling those Major League tournaments? Just call it that and it will be that. Same deal for minor league and regional/amateur/little league.
Michael Jackson started calling himself the King of Pop, and three years later every news organization referred to him as such. All you need to do to create a perception of a unified pool organization is to call it that. I don't really care if the rules are the same at every tournament. Golf's been playing with the same rules for 200 years, fine. We just invented 10 ball, what, a decade ago? 80 years ago we were playing straight pool. 150 years ago it was carom billiards. We don't have the history in 9 ball or 10 ball that golf does, so stop pretending we can create it. You don't need history to generate interest, you need character. That's what Bobby Jones, Jack Nicklaus, and Arnold Palmer brought to the sport. And I mean character both ways, you need to either have character or be a character.
I'm not opposed to the idea of a central body that acts in the interest of Pool In America, I'm just opposed to the thought that any central body can or should act to control pool in America.
My $.02. I'm fired.
What if there were a player-based organization (or association) that took it upon itself to find the pre-existing tournaments that already have the potential for national draw, and start coordinating with promoters and supporters to start calling those Major League tournaments? Just call it that and it will be that. Same deal for minor league and regional/amateur/little league.
Michael Jackson started calling himself the King of Pop, and three years later every news organization referred to him as such. All you need to do to create a perception of a unified pool organization is to call it that. I don't really care if the rules are the same at every tournament. Golf's been playing with the same rules for 200 years, fine. We just invented 10 ball, what, a decade ago? 80 years ago we were playing straight pool. 150 years ago it was carom billiards. We don't have the history in 9 ball or 10 ball that golf does, so stop pretending we can create it. You don't need history to generate interest, you need character. That's what Bobby Jones, Jack Nicklaus, and Arnold Palmer brought to the sport. And I mean character both ways, you need to either have character or be a character.
I'm not opposed to the idea of a central body that acts in the interest of Pool In America, I'm just opposed to the thought that any central body can or should act to control pool in America.
My $.02. I'm fired.
For what? I don't think the small tours really want or need someone coming in telling them what to do. Tournaments are played by all kinds of rules and formats. What would this governing bodies function be? Not to mention them trying to get into peoples pockets. Most things like that are more self serving then beneficial.
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This may not come across right but I will try anyway.
The current model of regional tours and national events is slowly deteriorating. the biggest problem is that there are too many of them vying for the same sponsors which in itself is a deteriorating group.
If you have 1 organization that can distribute and control sponsorships to the lower groups and sell the sponsorship to the sponsor/advertiser as a complete package the model becomes more efficient for all. This is not to say that individual entities will not be able to still get there own sponsorships from whomever they want but it applies to the larger sponsors within and outside of the industry.
As an example: Joe's tour has 32 events annually and wants Budweiser to sponsor it at a cost of say $3,200. In the current economic structure of Budweiser they will not even consider this as it would be a waste of there time. BUT if the GB of pool approached Budweiser and said, we have 1100 regional events across the us, 12 national events with 4 televised events all getting 10 hours each (40 hours total) on ESPN annually and we have over 100,000 members and 20,000 hours of live streaming for the events on the internet annually then we might be able to ask for $2,000,000 in sponsorship/advertising revenue and actually have a chance at getting it. Then that $2,000,000 in revenue could be split up and given to the different entities in the form of sponsorships for there events and all they would need to do is ad Budweiser as a sponsor for there event.
That's is why and how a complete system can work.
For the players, the important factors in the organization would be to have a cohesive rules structure so you can go from one event to another playing the same rules and that there is a points and/or advancement structure for the players so they can earn there way into the next levels of events.
For the promoters, the important factors will be not to dip into anyone's pocket or create unneeded large amounts of work for them along with helping them to promote there events and sponsors in a professional manner.
A test program was run on this a few years back and it worked fairly well except for the lack of cooperation. But those involved, Mike Janis (Viking Tour), Mike Zuglan (Joss Tour), Nick (Planet Pool Tour) and Greg Sullivan (Derby City Classic) all did exactly what they said they would do and it did not interfere with what they currently did in any way. The problems we had with the test program were easily resolved and there were some lessons learned and all in-all it went as planned but on a much smaller scale that what was originally hoped for.
The current model of regional tours and national events is slowly deteriorating. the biggest problem is that there are too many of them vying for the same sponsors which in itself is a deteriorating group.
If you have 1 organization that can distribute and control sponsorships to the lower groups and sell the sponsorship to the sponsor/advertiser as a complete package the model becomes more efficient for all. This is not to say that individual entities will not be able to still get there own sponsorships from whomever they want but it applies to the larger sponsors within and outside of the industry.
As an example: Joe's tour has 32 events annually and wants Budweiser to sponsor it at a cost of say $3,200. In the current economic structure of Budweiser they will not even consider this as it would be a waste of there time. BUT if the GB of pool approached Budweiser and said, we have 1100 regional events across the us, 12 national events with 4 televised events all getting 10 hours each (40 hours total) on ESPN annually and we have over 100,000 members and 20,000 hours of live streaming for the events on the internet annually then we might be able to ask for $2,000,000 in sponsorship/advertising revenue and actually have a chance at getting it. Then that $2,000,000 in revenue could be split up and given to the different entities in the form of sponsorships for there events and all they would need to do is ad Budweiser as a sponsor for there event.
That's is why and how a complete system can work.
For the players, the important factors in the organization would be to have a cohesive rules structure so you can go from one event to another playing the same rules and that there is a points and/or advancement structure for the players so they can earn there way into the next levels of events.
For the promoters, the important factors will be not to dip into anyone's pocket or create unneeded large amounts of work for them along with helping them to promote there events and sponsors in a professional manner.
A test program was run on this a few years back and it worked fairly well except for the lack of cooperation. But those involved, Mike Janis (Viking Tour), Mike Zuglan (Joss Tour), Nick (Planet Pool Tour) and Greg Sullivan (Derby City Classic) all did exactly what they said they would do and it did not interfere with what they currently did in any way. The problems we had with the test program were easily resolved and there were some lessons learned and all in-all it went as planned but on a much smaller scale that what was originally hoped for.
Why do you need a body to "control" the pool industry? The industry is already well-established, with national, regional, and local tournaments already being played throughout the country. I think what is really needed is for a single body to "support" the pool industry. I like the model of major league, minor league, and little league (maybe regional? i don't think the geriatrics want to play little league), but no one really needs to create a new process there.
What if there were a player-based organization (or association) that took it upon itself to find the pre-existing tournaments that already have the potential for national draw, and start coordinating with promoters and supporters to start calling those Major League tournaments? Just call it that and it will be that. Same deal for minor league and regional/amateur/little league.
Michael Jackson started calling himself the King of Pop, and three years later every news organization referred to him as such. All you need to do to create a perception of a unified pool organization is to call it that. I don't really care if the rules are the same at every tournament. Golf's been playing with the same rules for 200 years, fine. We just invented 10 ball, what, a decade ago? 80 years ago we were playing straight pool. 150 years ago it was carom billiards. We don't have the history in 9 ball or 10 ball that golf does, so stop pretending we can create it. You don't need history to generate interest, you need character. That's what Bobby Jones, Jack Nicklaus, and Arnold Palmer brought to the sport. And I mean character both ways, you need to either have character or be a character.
I'm not opposed to the idea of a central body that acts in the interest of Pool In America, I'm just opposed to the thought that any central body can or should act to control pool in America.
My $.02. I'm fired.
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You are putting the cart before the horse and there is a catch-22, how do they make those claims to a big sponsor, lie? They would need the organization and everything to already be in place to even approach a sponsor under your scenario and it would be a huge gamble that any sponsor would even bite.
Also, where are you going to get the people who could do this? You are talking about highly paid professionals from the corporate world to run such a complex endeavor. No one like that even exists in the pool world.
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Nobody is putting the "Cart before the Horse" Hence the reason for the Original Thread. It needs to be put together as an organization 1st. Without the organization there is no BIG sponsor. Nobody is looking to go out and sell something before it happens.
But on that same subject, there are many people this would need to work and unfortunately some of them do not think far enough ahead into the future to see how something like this could work and some of them are just here to make a quick buck now and would not even consider joining an organization like this without the guarantee of a BIG sponsor. And that is where the catch 22 comes in. But, maybe, just maybe some of them have seen a glimpse of the future if something like this does not happen and would be more willing now than they were before to jump in and make this work.
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I'm with you, let's do this. We need enough money to get the ball rolling in the right direction. Maybe we can fundraise to get the startup money. Jonny Archer, John Smidt own poolhalls, maybe they can run a few fundraiser events with a portion of the entry fees going towards thier org. Of course all this will be on paper and accounted so that everyone can see and manage progress.
So I forsee it going something like this:
1. Meeting to draw ideas and formulate blueprint
2. Fundraise, charity events
3. Nominate leadership and co-leaders....acquire accountant.
4. Mend and build new relationships with vendors and Tournament Directors.
5. Bring portfolio and present it professionally to everyone in the and out of pool world. Bud light, Vitamin water, Coke, Pepsi, Nike. Joss west, East, Schon, Viking, Fruit of the looms
That all sounds great but who are you ??
Well that is great, when can you put something together by. Barry Behrman might need something of the caliber you are proposing if he wants to avoid the ABP boycott without giving in to their demands.
Though the timing of the problem you identified is late, if you work diligently you might be able to impact some problems in the billiard community. The most urgent would be helping Barry from having a mental/nervous breakdown because the ABP players won't play his events.
If the governing body is unable to manage the Barry and the ABP dispute, I suggest passing on the work, because it would be great to have what you are proposing but useless to have in situations where it isn't needed or demanded or able to impact change.
Now here is the SAD part. After reviewing all the posts I only see 3 maybe 4 people that are currently involved in the industry ( by involved I mean tour operators, promoters, billiard Biz owners) that have even bothered to make any post in this thread.
Honestly, if this has any shot of happening many more including the few that have posted need to start talking and right now, right here in this thread seems like a good place to start that conversation.
Just my opinion.
Good Luck, I am going to call a TD and tell him about this thread. I may even post it on FaceBook and I suggest others do the same.
Honestly, if this has any shot of happening many more including the few that have posted need to start talking and right now, right here in this thread seems like a good place to start that conversation.
Just my opinion.
Good Luck, I am going to call a TD and tell him about this thread. I may even post it on FaceBook and I suggest others do the same.
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