American Rotation dead already?

Meucciplayer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I noticed that even on their own site there are only older games listed. Is American Rotation dead already?

This would be a shame since I really like the game.

If it is still being played beyond private meetings, is there a calendar for upcoming events somewhere that I missed?
 
I noticed that even on their own site there are only older games listed. Is American Rotation dead already?

This would be a shame since I really like the game.

If it is still being played beyond private meetings, is there a calendar for upcoming events somewhere that I missed?
When was it alive? Seriously, i live in the Ok.,Kan., Tex. region and not one person i know has ever heard of it. Not knocking it but is/was it a East coast region game? I vaguely remember a demo at DCC but can't recall the year.
 
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When was it alive? Seriously, i live in the Ok.,Kan., Tex. region and not one person i know has ever heard of it. Not knocking it but is/was it a East coast region game? I vaguely remember a demo at DCC in '07 but that was 10yrs ago.

I don't want to start a flame war here but when I played it after awhile I did like it but I felt that the differences in points for the balls might keep it from becoming what it was intended to become. I liked the concept but something about just didn't catch on.
 
It's getting bigger here in town.

Last year there was just one league and today there are 2 or 3.

The DCC quit supporting it this year, so the "official" game is dead. But we're playing it here with a lot of popularity. The original league was games to 140. A new, non-master, league has started and a game is won with 100 points, which is nice in that you can get done in 2 or hours or less and this saves table time.

The one comment I've heard more than any other about the game is: It sure has helped my 8-ball play. I agree, even though personally I hate the game itself for some reason. It's nice playing the best players around, though, as those spankings are instructional. I had the eventual winner of the league down by 30 balls or so and he came back to beat me by just a few, and I lost to the 2nd place guy by just 11, I think, so I can hang my hat on those when I'm down on my level of confidence. (I ended up in 9th in a field of 15, if anyone wants to know)

It's all played on 9 footers, of course.


Jeff Livingston
 
Fabulous game and a few of us play it here in the Dallas/Fort Worth amongst friends and home tables. No league was ever started here though.

~ K.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
It's a shame it didn't really take off like it should have. I think one big mistake in the promo videos was the scoring. They should have put up a monitor with the current score during those games. This probably got too many people confused and they would not bother to watch it long enough. You were always guessing as to where the players were and how close they were to winning/losing.

Still, I like the game a lot more than the games like 9-ball where luck is a lot more part of it.

So, those championships/master tournaments or whatever they were called a few years ago are gone now?
 
It's a shame it didn't really take off like it should have. I think one big mistake in the promo videos was the scoring. They should have put up a monitor with the current score during those games. This probably got too many people confused and they would not bother to watch it long enough. You were always guessing as to where the players were and how close they were to winning/losing.

Still, I like the game a lot more than the games like 9-ball where luck is a lot more part of it.

So, those championships/master tournaments or whatever they were called a few years ago are gone now?

AmericanBilliardClub.com has more info on it.

Jody Mclaughlin, who got second at the DCC losing to Mike Deschine(sp), runs one of the leagues here. It is a thankless job, but he does it. We each pay $150 bucks for 16 players in a division. We had 2 divisions this fall and there will be a playoff between those 2 to determine the winners of the cash. The winner USED TO get a free trip to the DCC, room and tourney fees included. Now it's just the cash spread around to the top 4 I think.Pretty good payoff, but then of course, the lower players get nothing but lessons. So, yeah, the big tourneys are gone, as far as I know.

I'll probably do it next year again. What kind of fool am I...???


Jeff Livingston
 
It's a shame it didn't really take off like it should have. I think one big mistake in the promo videos was the scoring. They should have put up a monitor with the current score during those games. This probably got too many people confused and they would not bother to watch it long enough. You were always guessing as to where the players were and how close they were to winning/losing.

Still, I like the game a lot more than the games like 9-ball where luck is a lot more part of it.

So, those championships/master tournaments or whatever they were called a few years ago are gone now?
Just watched part of a Morra/Thorsten match. Rules and scoring are kinda weird. Personally i'd rather just play plain-jane rotation. Pool has a tuff enuff time as it is. Not surprised this has been slow out of the gate.
 
The rules are the shining star of AR as far as I’m concerned - especially with the call pocket/call safe requirement combined with the option for a player to pass the shot (and turn at the table) back to an offending player. Absolutely removes all luck/slop in Rotation play.

Sure, there could be a few tweaks on the scoring and a big scoreboard - but those can be added in the future


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The rules are the shining star of AR as far as I’m concerned - especially with the call pocket/call safe requirement combined with the option for a player to pass the shot (and turn at the table) back to an offending player. Absolutely removes all luck/slop in Rotation play.

Exactly. That's what makes it one of the most attractive games IMHO.

Sure, there could be a few tweaks on the scoring and a big scoreboard - but those can be added in the future

Hopefully it will survive (and grow) long enough. Currently it seems to go the way Bonus Ball went - although that one was a game which never appealed to me. A requirement for a new set of balls alone was pretty stupid in the first place for a new game. (Well, I know you could play it with a regular set but then it should have been played officially that way from the start). It just had the looks of making some unnecessary money from the players.

AR never started out that way and that is another reason I thought it had a better chance of making a larger public. The game really deserves it.
 
I loved the game and in my opinion, it was an equalizer in that yes, the better player still had the advantage, but the weaker player still had a chance and could keep the match close if you understood the game.

We played it here in St. Louis and I qualified for the "National Tournament" two of the three years. First being in Vegas in 2015. We ran two divisions and sent two players to DCC in 2016 and I went again in 2017. I got to talk to Joe a lot about the game and future visions and challenges. When inquiring about this years National Championship, he informed me that they basically lost funding and never got any real support from either the BCA Nationals in Vegas or DCC with the running of the tournament or promotion. In 2015, BCA didn't want to have any 9' tables and the ones for our tournament were in a back room. They did allow one near the stream table, but never got any promotion even when they ran mini's with pros like Archer and such. Last year at Derby, they couldn't get any time to stream the finals until very late I believe on Tuesday evening and we actually started the day before the Banks, so the finalists had to wait several days to finish. Not to mention, unless Joe was in the booth, announcers were always guessing about the game because most have never played. Once you play a few racks, the rules are pretty easy to learn and all serve a purpose.

Another issue, was I think it was tough on and a very thankless job by Joe. I know he put hours and hours into trying to run things behind the scenes strictly for the love of the sport and game. Last year tournament in DCC as mentioned before was a completely paid and funded trip for the winners of local leagues. That was 10 days of hotel and entry into AmRo, Banks, One Pocket, and 9-Ball. If everyone remembers the room fiasco from the Horseshoe, even Joe's allotted rooms were taken away and some of us had to stay down the street and some players were *****ing and complaining, even though it wasn't Joe's fault.

I understand some people don't completely like all the rules, but as I said before, Joe had a specific reason for all the rules and from its inception, has made changes. The reason he developed the game was too improve Americans skill level at all rotation games because he feels the reason the Phillipinos are so good is because they play a lot of 15 ball rotation, so 9 or 10 ball becomes very easy. The reason for balls 11-15 being 2 points and 1-10 being 1 is because it puts more pressure to finish the game by either running out or playing a jam up safety. The reason for no jump cues is to improve both the level of safety play and ability to kick out of it. No slop forces you to kick with a purpose, not just whack at a ball and hope (even though that still happens and is called for).

We were planning to run it again locally and just keep all the money here since there was no National tournament, but basically, I've been to busy to organize it, but feel if I put a little effort into it, we could have 2 divisions easily. Each year, we had more guys asking about it and wanting to play in the next one, but we just didn't do the next one when there wasn't the National Championship prize to shoot for.

Hope to see it make a come back because it is a great game on all levels and anyone that plays it a lot will improve their skill level and ability in any other game they like to play.
 
I loved the game and in my opinion, it was an equalizer in that yes, the better player still had the advantage, but the weaker player still had a chance and could keep the match close if you understood the game.

We played it here in St. Louis and I qualified for the "National Tournament" two of the three years. First being in Vegas in 2015. We ran two divisions and sent two players to DCC in 2016 and I went again in 2017. I got to talk to Joe a lot about the game and future visions and challenges. When inquiring about this years National Championship, he informed me that they basically lost funding and never got any real support from either the BCA Nationals in Vegas or DCC with the running of the tournament or promotion. In 2015, BCA didn't want to have any 9' tables and the ones for our tournament were in a back room. They did allow one near the stream table, but never got any promotion even when they ran mini's with pros like Archer and such. Last year at Derby, they couldn't get any time to stream the finals until very late I believe on Tuesday evening and we actually started the day before the Banks, so the finalists had to wait several days to finish. Not to mention, unless Joe was in the booth, announcers were always guessing about the game because most have never played. Once you play a few racks, the rules are pretty easy to learn and all serve a purpose.

Another issue, was I think it was tough on and a very thankless job by Joe. I know he put hours and hours into trying to run things behind the scenes strictly for the love of the sport and game. Last year tournament in DCC as mentioned before was a completely paid and funded trip for the winners of local leagues. That was 10 days of hotel and entry into AmRo, Banks, One Pocket, and 9-Ball. If everyone remembers the room fiasco from the Horseshoe, even Joe's allotted rooms were taken away and some of us had to stay down the street and some players were *****ing and complaining, even though it wasn't Joe's fault.

I understand some people don't completely like all the rules, but as I said before, Joe had a specific reason for all the rules and from its inception, has made changes. The reason he developed the game was too improve Americans skill level at all rotation games because he feels the reason the Phillipinos are so good is because they play a lot of 15 ball rotation, so 9 or 10 ball becomes very easy. The reason for balls 11-15 being 2 points and 1-10 being 1 is because it puts more pressure to finish the game by either running out or playing a jam up safety. The reason for no jump cues is to improve both the level of safety play and ability to kick out of it. No slop forces you to kick with a purpose, not just whack at a ball and hope (even though that still happens and is called for).

We were planning to run it again locally and just keep all the money here since there was no National tournament, but basically, I've been to busy to organize it, but feel if I put a little effort into it, we could have 2 divisions easily. Each year, we had more guys asking about it and wanting to play in the next one, but we just didn't do the next one when there wasn't the National Championship prize to shoot for.

Hope to see it make a come back because it is a great game on all levels and anyone that plays it a lot will improve their skill level and ability in any other game they like to play.

Thanks for posting!
 
It what we should be playing when deciding the best players. I promise a lot of these players that are winning “pro” events would not do so well playing that game. 9 ball & even 10 ball now are all a break contest, actually not even breaking it’s a racking contest. Someone with Fargo Rate of 840 will lose to a Fargo 700 if they get outbroke most of the time. I wish they would have some American Rotation events, I would play for sure and I know a lot of other guys would also.
 
The rules are the shining star of AR as far as I’m concerned - especially with the call pocket/call safe requirement combined with the option for a player to pass the shot (and turn at the table) back to an offending player. Absolutely removes all luck/slop in Rotation play.

Sure, there could be a few tweaks on the scoring and a big scoreboard - but those can be added in the future


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Just my $.02 but i hate call-safe. I think the two-way shot should always be an option. I played in one(and only) ten-ball tournament that used call-safety and i wasn't the only one who did not like that format. It looks to me that the attempt to eliminate all luck is a losing proposition. There is luck in all sports/games except maybe chess. AR looks like a good training format/game but the chances of it ever becoming popular on a large scale were never in the cards. Again, just my $.02 here, nothing more.
 
Wish more people in New York played it. I always enjoy the call shot call safe games because even though I'm a low level league player, at least I know I am losing due to skill and not luck. It's why I only really play 8 ball and straight pool.

As for the game itself, I really enjoy playing it whenever someone wants to. And I really liked how everything was structured when it came t the national championship. it's just a shame that it couldn't sustain itself, but that is the state of pool in this country isn't it?
 
It's not dead until we say it's dead.

germans-pearl-harbor.gif



Jeff Livingston
 
Also played it as a kid. Had a few four player, 1 and 5 ball, partner games going all day during the weekends. Had several money balls, maybe the 1,5, 10, and 15. Total "points" (61) only counted for 2 for "ways" and money balls were counted as one "way" each, so total points did not entirely win the game.

We'd play .25, .50, or $1 per way, and there were always people waiting to replace anyone dropping out. Great fun, especially if someone ran the table and had no partner to share the winnings with, which didn't happen very often.
 
Also played it as a kid. Had a few four player, 1 and 5 ball, partner games going all day during the weekends. Had several money balls, maybe the 1,5, 10, and 15. Total "points" (61) only counted for 2 for "ways" and money balls were counted as one "way" each, so total points did not entirely win the game.

We'd play .25, .50, or $1 per way, and there were always people waiting to replace anyone dropping out. Great fun, especially if someone ran the table and had no partner to share the winnings with, which didn't happen very often.

I thought with the master players in our league, that I'd be a victim of many runouts and hoped I do a few of those myself. In two years of league play, only ONCE did a guy runout from the break. Once! And he got mad during the runout and started banging balls and not caring about shape. He banked like 2 or 3 out of the last 5 balls, including the 15. lol...I kid you not.

It's a lot harder than it looks, especially with old eyes.

Tucker has a nice app for scoring. It cost like 2 bucks or so. Otherwise paper and pencil work fine, too. Pick a table where the returned balls can be segregated into 2 groups to keep score during the game.


Jeff Livingston
 
Just my $.02 but i hate call-safe. I think the two-way shot should always be an option. I played in one(and only) ten-ball tournament that used call-safety and i wasn't the only one who did not like that format. It looks to me that the attempt to eliminate all luck is a losing proposition. There is luck in all sports/games except maybe chess. AR looks like a good training format/game but the chances of it ever becoming popular on a large scale were never in the cards. Again, just my $.02 here, nothing more.


I respect your position on hating call-safe, garczar, especially when trying to adopt a version of it to an existing well-known game, which is probably why no one else warmed up to it for TEN-BALL.

I think it’s worth mentioning here that the call-safe rule already applies to 8-BALL rules where you are forcing your opponent to shoot next and whatever balls were pocketed on that shot stay down - HOWEVER, this is not how the safety play or rules apply for AmRo, and since it’s an integral part of that game, the strategies and importance of that play are a crucial element - like many other rules.

Oh - just a reminder / clarification, garczar- the CALL POCKET / CALL SAFE rules for AmRo are completely different than the call-safe rules you played in that 10-Ball event (I’m guessing of course) where your rule required the opponent to shoot next regardless. Not the case in AmRo. If you call a safety AND make a ball, your opponent can still force you to shoot the next shot - but you’ll get the points for it Or l, if you take the shot he left for you on that safety (again, he pocketed a ball doing it) then you get the points. There are basically no two-way shots in AmRo.

My experience and lousy $.02 also knows that a lot of players prefer and need as much luck as they can wrangle in order to have fun in the cuesports - which is why they invented 9-Ball Otherwise, they shy away from the more challenging games of 1P, 14.1, Rotation and AmRo.


~K.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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