American Rotation race to 100 via Accu Stats

Celtic said:
I agree with going to 1 point per a ball...

The rules for the pocketed balls on a foul should remain the same. So after the 1st rack the total score adds up to 15, after the second the total score for both players adds to 30, next 45, next 60... and so on. Very easy to keep track of.
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Glad you agree with me, Celtic. And I agree with you that keeping track of points for every ball pocketed, one-to-one is a good idea, Keeping each rack worth 15 points.

Joe, I never really did like the idea of subtracting 5 for scratching on the break. I still like just giving ball in hand for the non-offending player. But I think it should still be anywhere, not behind the head string, since this is a rotation game and going behind the head string results in those funky rules where you start moving balls around to the spot. I just don't like that because it changes the table "artificially".

One thing I am waffling about though is my idea of penalizing 15 points for three consecutive fouls. After thinking about it more, that is kind of steep in this game. In straight pool, it's maybe about right, or even kind of light for pro players. In AR it's maybe too much for amateurs, but then again maybe not too much at the pro level. Edit: maybe not too much at the A level/shortstop level for that matter.

I do like that it keeps that total score (both players combined) as Celtic was saying, at a multiple of 15 - just one rack less. But I still think that the "penalty shot" is a little weird. Is a 15 point penalty too steep? Maybe not if you make it a race to 150 AND each ball being only worth one point. That's a longer game, and since this game is harder than straight pool, players get more chances at the table. The person who committed three fouls could well have another chance at the table to make it up.

Fatz
 
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Another thought. Just thinking outside the box here...

Would it be sensible to just not have a three foul rule in AR? Make the player "on the offensive" create something.

I don't play a lot of rotation games, so I'm sure I'm missing something here. But I've always wondered why is there a 3 foul rule in straight pool and rotation games, but not in 8-ball?

I would think you could always make something happen with ball in hand multiple times - even in rotation games.

I might well be missing something here, this is kind of going off on a tangent, but what's the big purpose behind the 3 foul rule in the first place? And would it hurt anything to eliminate it from AR? Like I said, just trying to think outside the box.

Fatz
 
I don't want the first break to be easy or an advantage, the 1 in the middle makes it a lil tougher to get a shot. The way it sits right now i'm not sure if I want to break the 1st rack or not; I would have to pocket a ball and get into a good position to pocket or place safe on the 1b to get an advantage vs the risk factor of coming up dry and leaving a shot and/or scratching then letting my opponent start off with ball in hand. To me it is sitting right around a 50/50 shot andi like that. If you win the lag you could always choose to have your opponent break.

As for the 3 fouls, you absolutely need it but don't want to motivate players to go for it. You need it because sometimes balls are going to get tied up and nobody will make the 1st move to break them apart, you could go back and forth all day taking fouls. The way it sits right now imo is perfect, free penalty shot followed with bih, play continues as normal.
 
Joe T said:
The way it sits right now imo is perfect, free penalty shot followed with bih, play continues as normal.
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Well then it is perfect. :thumbup2: Actually, you were thinking more outside the box then I was. It seems like the penalty shot rule actually does do a pretty good job of accomplishing what it was designed to do (opening up a locked up table I assume). It's a little odd, but once everyone understands how this rule works, you will be over that hurdle.

Fatz
 
Hey Joe,

I have an AR rules question for you. This is not another suggestion. I'm wondering if I understand the "call safety" aspect correctly. Your rules state...

"Player “A” calls safety but accidentally pockets a ball. Player “B” has the option to take the shot from the current location and the points or pass the shot and the points back to player “A”...

A player cannot make the player shoot again if the shooting player has called safe, executed a legal shot and did not pocket a ball."

I thought it was OK to pocket a ball in "call safety". By calling the safety first, you are declaring your intention to end your inning even though you might be pocketing a ball intentionally for tactical reasons.

Your rules refer to pocketing a ball accidentally, which begs the question, what if it were pocketed intentionally.

I'm not griping, I'm just bringing it up in case it was something you would feel needs to be clarified. You have to ask yourself, "Do you want to allow intentional ball pocketing on safeties?" Isn't it allowed in the WPA/BCA rules?

In the second paragraph above it does not refer to whether the ball being pocketed was intentional or not, so that part is more clear, but is it consistent with the usual way the rule works as in the WPA/BCA rules. I'm not even assuming that you were trying to be consistent with WPA/BCA, and again, I'm not 100% sure I know how it works in WPA/BCA. I just thought might need clarifying because it refers to "accidentally pocketed". I think rules need to avoid this kind of terminology, because how do you know what the intention was when the call is a safety. If it's irrelevant whether it was accidental or not, then don't use that phrasing.

Hope this helps
Fatz
 
Pre-Flag Master said:
Hey Joe,

I have an AR rules question for you. This is not another suggestion. I'm wondering if I understand the "call safety" aspect correctly. Your rules state...

"Player “A” calls safety but accidentally pockets a ball. Player “B” has the option to take the shot from the current location and the points or pass the shot and the points back to player “A”...

A player cannot make the player shoot again if the shooting player has called safe, executed a legal shot and did not pocket a ball."

I thought it was OK to pocket a ball in "call safety". By calling the safety first, you are declaring your intention to end your inning even though you might be pocketing a ball intentionally for tactical reasons.

Your rules refer to pocketing a ball accidentally, which begs the question, what if it were pocketed intentionally.

I'm not griping, I'm just bringing it up in case it was something you would feel needs to be clarified. You have to ask yourself, "Do you want to allow intentional ball pocketing on safeties?" Isn't it allowed in the WPA/BCA rules?

In the second paragraph above it does not refer to whether the ball being pocketed was intentional or not, so that part is more clear, but is it consistent with the usual way the rule works as in the WPA/BCA rules. I'm not even assuming that you were trying to be consistent with WPA/BCA, and again, I'm not 100% sure I know how it works in WPA/BCA. I just thought might need clarifying because it refers to "accidentally pocketed". I think rules need to avoid this kind of terminology, because how do you know what the intention was when the call is a safety. If it's irrelevant whether it was accidental or not, then don't use that phrasing.

Hope this helps
Fatz
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I see your concern. I'm not sure if they kept that (imo) broken rule in wpa 10 ball rules? I know you could always call safe and pocket a ball in 8 ball but not in any rotation games until they made that rule in the WPA call shot 10 ball. I'll try to add something to make it clearer that you cannot pocket a ball on a called safe, intentionally or otherwise.
 
Joe T said:
I see your concern. I'm not sure if they kept that (imo) broken rule in wpa 10 ball rules? I know you could always call safe and pocket a ball in 8 ball but not in any rotation games until they made that rule in the WPA call shot 10 ball. I'll try to add something to make it clearer that you cannot pocket a ball on a called safe, intentionally or otherwise.
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Since that's the intention, then it's a pretty easy fix. All you have to do is remove the word "accidentally" from the following paragraph...

"Player “A” calls safety but [accidentally] pockets a ball. Player “B” has the option to take the shot from the current location and the points or pass the shot and the points back to player “A”.

I didn't know that some people would consider the rule broken. I don't have a strong opinion on it one way or the other. I don't play that much rotation games. Are you saying it makes sense in 8-ball but it's broken for rotation games?

Fatz
 
It is. Because if you pocket the ball and call safety, and next ball is on the cluster somewhere than you achive easy solution for that cluster with little safety skill involved .
 
peter_gunn said:
It is. Because if you pocket the ball and call safety, and next ball is on the cluster somewhere than you achive easy solution for that cluster with little safety skill involved .
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OK, I see. I'll agree, that is broken. The beauty of rotation games is that both players are always on the same ball, so you have to hide it from each other - you have to exchange safeties/kicks. With this call safety in rotation you can just eliminate.... what you said! That is broken.
 
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