Americans and fundamentals

Slasher

Slasher

KE = 0.5 • m • v2
Silver Member
Watching this years Mosconi it became very apparent that the Americans have some technical issues and are somewhat behind the European players in this regard.

There were a number of crucial shots missed by USA and a lot of them were for the same reason. They were all coming across the cueball, steering with the back hand.

Some of these were longer pressure balls and some were simple like the 4 or 5 ball DH missed in the bottom RH corner or the longer 8 that MD missed, DH also struggled shooting over balls, pushing the cue to the right.

This is a fundamental flaw that will find you out under high pressure situations. I saw all of them do it with the exception of Archer.

This is one area that Europe excels especially DA and CM, pretty rare you see this from them.

I think if they want to be better players and give themselves a shot they all need to work on this area.
Keeping the tension out of the arm and grip, pushing the cue through in a straight line are crucial, especially under pressure.

This is not meant as a slam it's just my observation. The shots they missed were game changers and given the final score, with those few errors removed they wold have won.
 
The amount of pressure over there is really huge and the whole set up of the tournament is something different, unlike any other.
There are many details to talk about trying to explain the outcome, I don't think there was any problem with the quality of the USA team or their fundamentals.
There is a system for making it to either of the teams, these were the best players that played there.
It's possible in USA there are some top players with more "ideal" fundamentals, that didn't make it to the team so the whole thing is really subjective...
Gongratulations to both teams, they performed great last week!
Petros
 
It's easy to put the blame on pressure. But I think, the better your technique the less your game is affected by pressure.

I was really impressed with Chris Melling. I've never heard of him before, but from his stance it was immediately obvious that he is (also) a snooker player. He hits the cueball so softly and with so much control, it's beautiful. SVB has really good technique, too.
I don't know if it's an american thing. Many american players seem to go with the "loosy goosy" style. But there are also european pros who don't push the cue through on a straight line, like Ralf Souquet, and he is one of the best in the world. So I don't know... It's a mystery!
 
Slasher said:
Watching this years Mosconi it became very apparent that the Americans have some technical issues and are somewhat behind the European players in this regard.

There were a number of crucial shots missed by USA and a lot of them were for the same reason. They were all coming across the cueball, steering with the back hand.

Some of these were longer pressure balls and some were simple like the 4 or 5 ball DH missed in the bottom RH corner or the longer 8 that MD missed, DH also struggled shooting over balls, pushing the cue to the right.

This is a fundamental flaw that will find you out under high pressure situations. I saw all of them do it with the exception of Archer.

This is one area that Europe excels especially DA and CM, pretty rare you see this from them.

I think if they want to be better players and give themselves a shot they all need to work on this area.
Keeping the tension out of the arm and grip, pushing the cue through in a straight line are crucial, especially under pressure.

This is not meant as a slam it's just my observation. The shots they missed were game changers and given the final score, with those few errors removed they wold have won.
Click to expand...

And when the Europeans missed shots what was the reason?
 
Well if we're going to talk about a "fundamentally" proper stroke how can you leave out Bustamante? It seems he has perhaps the most unorthodox stroke in the pool world yet is a past world champion. People used to say that the back swing portion of your stroke was not supposed to be long at all. That the "stroke" used to be a little back swing with an elongated forward motion. The past greats such as Mosconi were said to not have that long backswing at all and the first real pro to introduce that to the pool world was Earl Strickland. And well Earl seems to have done pretty damn well with it.

I don't think what happened was a lack of proper fundamentals but more of a lack of ability to handle the pressure. During the key moments of the matches the young guns of team USA (Dechaine and Shuff) did not shoot particularly well. It shouldn't be a surprise as how many tournaments in the USA have that same environment? That coupled with the short races to 5 lead to hard to predict outcomes. Who would of thought that Nick the Greek would smash SVB the first time they played? It short sprints like that anyone can win. How many people here would back Nick against SVB in a race to 25? Not saying that Nick couldn't win but he would definitely be the underdog in that one. Coming back to the point the newer members to the team need the experience. The next Mosconi Cup will be even more exciting then this years.
 
It is quite interesting that anyone could say that the fundamentals are wrong. Melling missed several shots and his stroke is much more of a pool stroke than a snooker stroke.

All of these guys have run large packages in their careers. Sorry but you don't get to the point where you can run 8 packs and not have a solid stroke. Not to say that ANY pro can't improve their form. Even Appleton said he went back to fix his stroke AFTER he won the world 10 ball championship.

I think it really comes down to the hero or zero mentality we all have. IF the USA had won then there would be zero talk about the USA player's fundamentals. Winners are heroes and losers are zeroes is the deepest base mentality we have about competition.

In fact we can analyze the who event and come up with several key shots and rolls that could have gone either way and changed the outcome. This includes missed shots on both sides, includes lucky rolls, includes hero kick shots, missed safeties and so on.

The woulda coulda shoulda game can be played over and over and the simple fact is that it went one way and not the other. Not because of better fundamentals on the European side although that MIGHT perhaps be one factor, but for a host of reasons that all boil down to one team got to 11 first.

At the end of the day all these guys are top players. All of them are fully capable of running huge packages at any time. They all pretty much respect each other's games and know that especially in short sets anything can happen.

I like SJM's take on it. It's all pressure all the time. End of match pressure because a race to five is the equivalent of the end of a race to 9-11-25-100 whatever - it's five games and there is no room for error at that point.

And does good fundamentals help to handle pressure. Absolutely. But there is nothing on Earth that will stop a choke when it's going to happen. That's ALL mental. The slightest twitch sends the ball in the wrong direction. All the top players have dogged "easy" shots at times - ALL OF THEM. That has more to do with focus and pressure than whether their stroke is textbook or not.
 
Just to be clear, I never said that any of the pros at the Mosconi Cup had "wrong" fundamentals. The important part is to consistently hit the cueball where you want to hit it with the intended speed. How you do that is secondary, even though some techniques seem to make it easier than others. Like you wouldn't teach a beginner to emulate Bustamante's stroke.
 
Slasher said:
... There were a number of crucial shots missed by USA and a lot of them were for the same reason. They were all coming across the cueball, steering with the back hand. ...
Click to expand...

Some of those shots might have been dynamic or swooping back-hand english rather than steering.
 
fundamentals

Chris Melling was playing english 8 ball before changing to play pool just like Darren Appleton!

Chris has one of the greatest stroke I know...

Have a look at this thread I opened in the aiming section about fundamentals concerning head/eye position grip and front foot position.
Looking forward to your feedbacks!

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=299755

All of the US MOSCONI CUP players have good fundamentals too I think but in Europe more average players really work on their fundamentals!!!

EKKES
 
JB Cases said:
It is quite interesting that anyone could say that the fundamentals are wrong. Melling missed several shots and his stroke is much more of a pool stroke than a snooker stroke.

All of these guys have run large packages in their careers. Sorry but you don't get to the point where you can run 8 packs and not have a solid stroke. Not to say that ANY pro can't improve their form. Even Appleton said he went back to fix his stroke AFTER he won the world 10 ball championship.

I think it really comes down to the hero or zero mentality we all have. IF the USA had won then there would be zero talk about the USA player's fundamentals. Winners are heroes and losers are zeroes is the deepest base mentality we have about competition.

In fact we can analyze the who event and come up with several key shots and rolls that could have gone either way and changed the outcome. This includes missed shots on both sides, includes lucky rolls, includes hero kick shots, missed safeties and so on.

The woulda coulda shoulda game can be played over and over and the simple fact is that it went one way and not the other. Not because of better fundamentals on the European side although that MIGHT perhaps be one factor, but for a host of reasons that all boil down to one team got to 11 first.

At the end of the day all these guys are top players. All of them are fully capable of running huge packages at any time. They all pretty much respect each other's games and know that especially in short sets anything can happen.

I like SJM's take on it. It's all pressure all the time. End of match pressure because a race to five is the equivalent of the end of a race to 9-11-25-100 whatever - it's five games and there is no room for error at that point.

And does good fundamentals help to handle pressure. Absolutely. But there is nothing on Earth that will stop a choke when it's going to happen. That's ALL mental. The slightest twitch sends the ball in the wrong direction. All the top players have dogged "easy" shots at times - ALL OF THEM. That has more to do with focus and pressure than whether their stroke is textbook or not.
Click to expand...

Well you can learn from it or continue to do this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8-yhJcXlJX8#t=484s
 
ChrisBanks said:
How does your citizenship affect your fundamentals?
Click to expand...

I don't think it matters directly, but I guess it's possible a background in snooker gives someone more solid mechanics, and that game is a lot more popular in europe and asia than it is here.

Still, I don't think fundamentals were the problem. John's got the right of it... what happens if melling kicks that six ball but it rattles or otherwise sells out? That one roll could easily have been a turning point for the whole thing.

Or, the USA doesn't luck in those 2 nine balls, appleton doesn't catch that cold roll on his railfirst shot on the 3, and they lose even worse.

Shane's fundamentals look great to me... So why did he miss that one shot, I think it was the six in the corner?

That miss wasn't fundamentals, I think he just had an awkward lie where he wanted to draw the ball, but the cut had to be hit a bit full to make it happen, and he overdid it when cheating the pocket and/or he underestimated how much spin would throw the ball. Maybe the newness or polish of the balls had something to do with that.

Pressure is not always the reason either. He missed that 3 ball in his win vs. appleton. It was a 2-foot putt, no amount of pressure in the world can make shane miss that ball if all he has to do is cinch it. But sometimes the lay of the balls dictate you take a risk on cheating the pocket to the absolute maximum to get position. He gambled the pocket would accept him overcutting the ball, and it didn't pan out. That's not crowd noise or a twisty stroke, that's just a funny layout.
 
theUBC said:
Chris Melling was playing english 8 ball before changing to play pool just like Darren Appleton!
Click to expand...

Many people overlook this. Karl Boyes is also an excellent 8-Ball player as well. It is often regarded a lesser form of pool here unfortunately.

The OP saw the same thing I did, that those key shots that were missed always had poor fundamentals at play. I watch to study the preshot routines and the player's approach to the table, not to cheer for one side or another. I would see someone jump up in mid stroke and think, "that's not right", and then the OB would rattle out or completely miss the pot all together.

Maybe I've just spent too much time on AZ reading about the mechanics of a great game...




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