Americans will never Dominate 'Pool' again and here's why

[Pathetic Shark]

You lose something with a shot clock.

This shot took one minute ten seconds, yet it is one of the most famous shots in pool history and brought the audience to their feet. What would have been lost if he had to fire in 10 seconds?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxZtYALqIrE

You say we shouldn't be focused on what AZB wants, but instead what the public wants...then you talk about a hypothetical public that just happens to agree with your own opinions. And yet you state them as facts, as if you had done extensive market research or traveled 30 years into the future. I have no problem with you having your opinion and voicing it. But at least acknowledge it is an opinion and that a 20 second shot clock puts you are in the minority.

As for what the public wants, it is far from scientific. Hole card cameras made texas hold'em explode into a world wide phenomenon. Not a shot clock. In fact, some of the most entertaining moments in poker was watching someone make a tough decision for all of their chips and going into the tank, analyzing the hand, prodding their opponent for information. It was suspenseful and if you were rooting for one player or the other it was one of the most enjoyable parts of the broadcast.

As for me, I personally would struggle with even a 30 second shot clock. I played bar table 8 ball yesterday for about 4-5 hours getting ready for a tournament. I had my break dialed in and have never run so many racks from the break in my life. I ran 4 racks several times, and more 2s and 3s than I could count. I'd imagine my break and run percentage was over 60%, probably in the 70s. If I didn't run 50 racks total from the break, I was closer to 50 than to 30. I say this because while I'm not an elite player, I know the game. And yes, most of my shots were played pretty quickly. But after the break I might take some time, if I got into trouble and had to figure out which way to break open the balls, etc. I didn't play slow, but I know my game would've dropped drastically had I been playing with a 30 second shot clock. My goal is to play my best, and I don't see the need to sabotage myself for some fictitious public audience that isn't going to watch either way.

Who was watching you? You're amazing, right? You musta gained quite a crowd!

 

[Pathetic Shark]

This shot which is more impressive than Efren's Z-Kick only took a smidgen over 30 seconds.

An even more impressive shot from Efren himself, which clocked in at a whopping 29 seconds.

Oh, and then there's this power stroke shot that took all of 24 seconds


So there's 3 shots. All amazing. All difficult. And all made under 40 seconds. So please continue believing that pool players need a lot of time when 90% of the shots they'll take are easier and much more standard than these.

Hey, make it 2 mins a shot and Rory McCloud will be the next world champion. Only he won't...

Snooker changed forever after this match. I was in the audience, but watching the other match. Even though i couldn't see what was happening it was clear something seismic was happening on the other table. Grinding is sportsmanship, and sportsmanship is bad for the game.

https://youtu.be/Cl4qrOAU-7I

 

[Pathetic Shark]

I am very confused by how you discuss things.

What, other than your personal feelings, are you offering to support the idea of radical change to a hyper aggressive shot clock?

Also, I never stated ALL shots must take ages to be incredible. I simply pointed out that many situations come up that can easily exceed 20 seconds.

See, the problem with a shot clock is that you have to play 100% of your shots within 20 seconds. So you can't "prove" it is possible by showing some shots that take less than 20 seconds. And all I have to do to "prove" otherwise is to show just a few shots that take longer that would be lost.

Now, you can make the argument that it's worth losing the shots that take longer than 20 seconds in the interest of the vast audiences the new game would bring in. But it's pretty stubborn to imagine that it's the same game.

I'll let you all get the last word here. I'll still read your posts but I think I've said what I needed to in any case. I can respect your opinion that the 20 second shot clock would be good for the game.

You like what you like. Great! Find me the next generation that likes exactly the same things as the current generation.

And, er, extensions for head scratchers? Ever heard of em?

 

[Pathetic Shark]

Setting aside the issue of whether or not we should have a shot clock, the shot by Jimmy White was nowhere near as impressive as Efren's Z-kick. Efren's kick safe, though, against Boyes I think was probably more impressive than the Z-kick. Efren's accuracy and speed on that kick-safe were both impeccable.

White's shot was far more difficult. Shots where you must drive the cb directly into the rail are notoriously difficult to read, especially with loads of gear. Then to judge the curve around a blocking ball...efren's was far more straightforward. Both involved huge amounts of luck.

 

[Double-Dave]

English pool. English pool has effectively died off

Yeah...uhhhmmm. No.

 

[Oze147]

I have been playing snooker for the last 15 years or so, but was always interested in cuesports in general. I also started playing pool recently so I started reading through the forums here, enjoying the stories, the knowledge about cues, the different opinions and so on and so on...

After the recent loss in the Mosconi Cup this whole "get America back to strentgh", "It will never be the same", "pool is dying" topics exploded and many, many opinions were said and discussed.

In my view the main reason for the current "pool crisis" is not shot clock or no shot clock, short race or long race, one ball on the spot or not or whatever other thing has been brought up.
I say its the general attitude that many (not all) american pool players and pool fans have to the game. And in particular the whole gambling aspect that is still a big part of american cuesport culture.
I agree that this lifestyle as a hustler, the stories about great money players, all the little tricks and moves have something...fascinating. Dim light, dirty tables and the big cash that has been won or lost.

But if you want this game to be great again, there is, at least in my opinion, no way that pool as a sport and pool as gambling can coexist.
By now most europeans see pool as a sport and it was hard work to get rid of the dirty image pool and other cuesports had.
Players can get sponsorship deals easier, snooker is big on TV, Dutch pool players are even part of the olympic sponsorship scheme in their country, the Germans developed good practice routines for both pool and snooker, the are big academies in the UK, parents bring their kids to the clubs so they can play...the list goes on and on.
All resulting in quite a good output when it comes to producing high class players.

As a side note, for me this whole "pool is a sport" attitude is the reason why the Europeans have such a good team spirit for the MC. Even though they are opponents for the rest of the season, they can come together as a team for this event.

Anyway, that doesn`t mean, that Americans can`t or won`t dominate the pool scene again. But as I see it, it will be an awful lot of work to get back to the top of the world.

 

[Ratta]

I have been playing snooker for the last 15 years or so, but was always interested in cuesports in general. I also started playing pool recently so I started reading through the forums here, enjoying the stories, the knowledge about cues, the different opinions and so on and so on...

After the recent loss in the Mosconi Cup this whole "get America back to strentgh", "It will never be the same", "pool is dying" topics exploded and many, many opinions were said and discussed.

In my view the main reason for the current "pool crisis" is not shot clock or no shot clock, short race or long race, one ball on the spot or not or whatever other thing has been brought up.
I say its the general attitude that many (not all) american pool players and pool fans have to the game. And in particular the whole gambling aspect that is still a big part of american cuesport culture.
I agree that this lifestyle as a hustler, the stories about great money players, all the little tricks and moves have something...fascinating. Dim light, dirty tables and the big cash that has been won or lost.

But if you want this game to be great again, there is, at least in my opinion, no way that pool as a sport and pool as gambling can coexist.
By now most europeans see pool as a sport and it was hard work to get rid of the dirty image pool and other cuesports had.
Players can get sponsorship deals easier, snooker is big on TV, Dutch pool players are even part of the olympic sponsorship scheme in their country, the Germans developed good practice routines for both pool and snooker, the are big academies in the UK, parents bring their kids to the clubs so they can play...the list goes on and on.
All resulting in quite a good output when it comes to producing high class players.

As a side note, for me this whole "pool is a sport" attitude is the reason why the Europeans have such a good team spirit for the MC. Even though they are opponents for the rest of the season, they can come together as a team for this event.

Anyway, that doesn`t mean, that Americans can`t or won`t dominate the pool scene again. But as I see it, it will be an awful lot of work to get back to the top of the world.

Tap Tap Tap

You nailed it- several times.

best from overseas,
have a smooth stroke bud

 

[snucar]

I promise you if I got to play 8 majors a year overseas for even a few years I would win one or a some and be in contention.

Cool story, Justin.

 

[Pathetic Shark]

I have been playing snooker for the last 15 years or so, but was always interested in cuesports in general. I also started playing pool recently so I started reading through the forums here, enjoying the stories, the knowledge about cues, the different opinions and so on and so on...

After the recent loss in the Mosconi Cup this whole "get America back to strentgh", "It will never be the same", "pool is dying" topics exploded and many, many opinions were said and discussed.

In my view the main reason for the current "pool crisis" is not shot clock or no shot clock, short race or long race, one ball on the spot or not or whatever other thing has been brought up.
I say its the general attitude that many (not all) american pool players and pool fans have to the game. And in particular the whole gambling aspect that is still a big part of american cuesport culture.
I agree that this lifestyle as a hustler, the stories about great money players, all the little tricks and moves have something...fascinating. Dim light, dirty tables and the big cash that has been won or lost.

But if you want this game to be great again, there is, at least in my opinion, no way that pool as a sport and pool as gambling can coexist.
By now most europeans see pool as a sport and it was hard work to get rid of the dirty image pool and other cuesports had.
Players can get sponsorship deals easier, snooker is big on TV, Dutch pool players are even part of the olympic sponsorship scheme in their country, the Germans developed good practice routines for both pool and snooker, the are big academies in the UK, parents bring their kids to the clubs so they can play...the list goes on and on.
All resulting in quite a good output when it comes to producing high class players.

As a side note, for me this whole "pool is a sport" attitude is the reason why the Europeans have such a good team spirit for the MC. Even though they are opponents for the rest of the season, they can come together as a team for this event.

Anyway, that doesn`t mean, that Americans can`t or won`t dominate the pool scene again. But as I see it, it will be an awful lot of work to get back to the top of the world.

It is more basic than that mate. Americans can't cue straight. Everything else is an excuse.

 

[Mr. Bond]

Nobody cares about pool in the USA so how in the world could we dominate? I don't know exactly what the original poster meant by dominate, but if he means go back to the way it was in the 80's for example, that'll never happen again because other countries are actually playing pool now.

But, I believe if pool payouts were like they are in golf, America would be one of the dominant forces within 10 years with respect to per country (why does Europe get to be wrapped into a single entity btw, we could do the same thing with say North America here). I actually believe the numbers would follow somewhat closely what they do in golf, and that's the majority of the players are from the USA. Philippines would obviously have the best number of representatives per capita. Now, if we were to take population sizes into account of course, that's a whole other argument. But, if the money was crazy good in pool, and say pool was an Olympic sport, in ten years I think it would be the USA, Philippines and of course a handful of other countries in contention for gold. Our population is just too dang big for us not to be producing high numbers of top talent if the incentives were there.

Pool is an absolute joke though. How can you expect people to train like you need to in order to dominate world class opponents with no finacial backing or incentive? Only a handful of the population can even do that ( people with no bills, no wives or kids no apartment, and a good backer lol, we're down to like .00001% of the population). Quite simply, we'd have tons of great players in no time if there were any sort of ability to make a good living playing the game.

Look at it this way, which is sorta backwards but it proves the point. Why are there so many good Philippinos? The answer is money! If a Filipino wins a tournament in the USA and brings the money back to pi it is a total jackpot. You don't think USA players would be coming out of every single city in the USA if they would win a single tournament and pay their living expenses for the next ten years? Make no mistake about it the reason Filipinos play good is money. It is kinda akin to why the USA has good basketball players... it's sort of a dream and a way out for all these legions of kids so they work their asses off to be good enough and look at what we produce! Exact same thing would happen in pool if the money was there, which it never will be so it's a moot point.

What's your name and where are you from.

 

[Mr. Bond]

I have been playing snooker for the last 15 years or so, but was always interested in cuesports in general. I also started playing pool recently so I started reading through the forums here, enjoying the stories, the knowledge about cues, the different opinions and so on and so on...

After the recent loss in the Mosconi Cup this whole "get America back to strentgh", "It will never be the same", "pool is dying" topics exploded and many, many opinions were said and discussed.

In my view the main reason for the current "pool crisis" is not shot clock or no shot clock, short race or long race, one ball on the spot or not or whatever other thing has been brought up.
I say its the general attitude that many (not all) american pool players and pool fans have to the game. And in particular the whole gambling aspect that is still a big part of american cuesport culture.
I agree that this lifestyle as a hustler, the stories about great money players, all the little tricks and moves have something...fascinating. Dim light, dirty tables and the big cash that has been won or lost.

But if you want this game to be great again, there is, at least in my opinion, no way that pool as a sport and pool as gambling can coexist.
By now most europeans see pool as a sport and it was hard work to get rid of the dirty image pool and other cuesports had.
Players can get sponsorship deals easier, snooker is big on TV, Dutch pool players are even part of the olympic sponsorship scheme in their country, the Germans developed good practice routines for both pool and snooker, the are big academies in the UK, parents bring their kids to the clubs so they can play...the list goes on and on.
All resulting in quite a good output when it comes to producing high class players.

As a side note, for me this whole "pool is a sport" attitude is the reason why the Europeans have such a good team spirit for the MC. Even though they are opponents for the rest of the season, they can come together as a team for this event.

Anyway, that doesn`t mean, that Americans can`t or won`t dominate the pool scene again. But as I see it, it will be an awful lot of work to get back to the top of the world.

What's your name and where are you from?

 

[Ekojasiloop]

What's your name and where are you from.

Nice comeback. I'll tell you what, we got a great young player in this thread and I played him at golden cue billiards in El Monte ca even one pocket about eight or ten years ago and it was no picnic for him. I'd be happy to provide the details of that set that only him and I would know (there was nobody watching just him and I). It's great to see you doing so well by the way Justin!

Anyway, here's my take. I think where people go wrong is we actually have the talent in pool today as we did say in the 80s. Hell, I won't name names but we had a guy that would play efren even one pocket when efren was pretty much in his prime. How strong is that? There are American one pocket players that would play that guy and totally don't have the worst of it if they actually got off their asses and hit balls. In short, we've got a few guys that could play efren in his prime, the greatest player of all time, EVEN one pocket and have a great chance. We don't have no shortage of good players. Go on these guys' Facebook pages or talk to them in person, and the reason they aren't playing everyday and matching up with champions is because it just isn't worth it. It doesn't make any financial sense to be playing pool. These guys would be absolute monsters if there were any sort of support for the players. Scary all around monsters that hit four balls a year. I mean why the heck do you think that is?

Anyway, these boards are about opinions, I've given mine, I'll respect those of others as much as possible even when I think you're wrong

 

[Oze147]

What's your name and where are you from?

I´m from Austria and I don`t think my name matters

 

[Fuji-whopper]

Interesting observations from the commentators about International Pool and going to the PI to compete, and this is back in 1995:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tvkLa39l-8&t=76m20s

Neil

Edit: Very interesting, about 5 minutes later Jim Rempe talks about changing the cueball position on the break limiting it to a "little D" as he calls it to keep the corner ball from going in. Interesting to hear about the International competition level and the suggested changes to the PBT over 2 decades ago, seems like they have been tinkering with the rules for a while now.

 

[pmac666]

............

 

[pmac666]

I have been playing snooker for the last 15 years or so, but was always interested in cuesports in general. I also started playing pool recently so I started reading through the forums here, enjoying the stories, the knowledge about cues, the different opinions and so on and so on...

After the recent loss in the Mosconi Cup this whole "get America back to strentgh", "It will never be the same", "pool is dying" topics exploded and many, many opinions were said and discussed.

In my view the main reason for the current "pool crisis" is not shot clock or no shot clock, short race or long race, one ball on the spot or not or whatever other thing has been brought up.
I say its the general attitude that many (not all) american pool players and pool fans have to the game. And in particular the whole gambling aspect that is still a big part of american cuesport culture.
I agree that this lifestyle as a hustler, the stories about great money players, all the little tricks and moves have something...fascinating. Dim light, dirty tables and the big cash that has been won or lost.

But if you want this game to be great again, there is, at least in my opinion, no way that pool as a sport and pool as gambling can coexist.
By now most europeans see pool as a sport and it was hard work to get rid of the dirty image pool and other cuesports had.
Players can get sponsorship deals easier, snooker is big on TV, Dutch pool players are even part of the olympic sponsorship scheme in their country, the Germans developed good practice routines for both pool and snooker, the are big academies in the UK, parents bring their kids to the clubs so they can play...the list goes on and on.
All resulting in quite a good output when it comes to producing high class players.

As a side note, for me this whole "pool is a sport" attitude is the reason why the Europeans have such a good team spirit for the MC. Even though they are opponents for the rest of the season, they can come together as a team for this event.

Anyway, that doesn`t mean, that Americans can`t or won`t dominate the pool scene again. But as I see it, it will be an awful lot of work to get back to the top of the world.

+1
ein landsmann :thumbup:

 

[Mr. Bond]

Nice comeback. I'll tell you what, we got a great young player in this thread and I played him at golden cue billiards in El Monte ca even one pocket about eight or ten years ago and it was no picnic for him. I'd be happy to provide the details of that set that only him and I would know (there was nobody watching just him and I). It's great to see you doing so well by the way Justin!

Anyway, here's my take. I think where people go wrong is we actually have the talent in pool today as we did say in the 80s. Hell, I won't name names but we had a guy that would play efren even one pocket when efren was pretty much in his prime. How strong is that? There are American one pocket players that would play that guy and totally don't have the worst of it if they actually got off their asses and hit balls. In short, we've got a few guys that could play efren in his prime, the greatest player of all time, EVEN one pocket and have a great chance. We don't have no shortage of good players. Go on these guys' Facebook pages or talk to them in person, and the reason they aren't playing everyday and matching up with champions is because it just isn't worth it. It doesn't make any financial sense to be playing pool. These guys would be absolute monsters if there were any sort of support for the players. Scary all around monsters that hit four balls a year. I mean why the heck do you think that is?

Anyway, these boards are about opinions, I've given mine, I'll respect those of others as much as possible even when I think you're wrong

It wasn't a comeback it was a question.

And what exactly is it that I'm supposed to be wrong about ?

I'm on the edge of my seat over here