An attempt at civil discussion, on case construction.
- Thread starter jhanso18
- Start date
I've already experimented puting an alarm in a case... a movement alarm...n it has a small pocket remote to turn it off/on.... but then disaster struck... the player carrying the case accidentally turned it on... while playing an important tournament... the whole place went wild... n the player got penalized with a frame... was hilarious n embarrassing ...
Did one for Oliver Ortmann in 1993 with a motion triggered alarm inside it. Oliver's previous case and cues had been stolen so I put a portable alarm in it that could be set to go off if the alarm was moved. He used it once and someone accidentally kicked the case and it sharked the whole pool room.
There is one that I have seen which seems more practical. It's a distance based alarm. If the units get too far apart then it goes off.
Yeah, but what kind of case do you carry Roger???
funny question.... every time I build myself a case... I end up selling it before I even get to show it off.... but the funny part is that when I manage to keep it n take it out to the poolhall... I end up having a money game... n in the end when I lost... they want the damn case...
I have the following:
Nice custom leather carved JB Butterfly 4x8.
Nice leather Instroke Oval 3x5.
A bunch of inexpensive 1x1.
My normal day to day are the 1x1's for locker storage in my regular hall or casual/practice at a different hall. 3x5 for when I go to a different hall and need my playing, break and jump cue. 4x8 when going to a different hall with my wife and need all our cues.
I know cue protection is a hot topic for some, but for me, all protect the cues adequately for the way I use and carry them. My decision on case purchase is mainly artistic style.
Nice custom leather carved JB Butterfly 4x8.
Nice leather Instroke Oval 3x5.
A bunch of inexpensive 1x1.
My normal day to day are the 1x1's for locker storage in my regular hall or casual/practice at a different hall. 3x5 for when I go to a different hall and need my playing, break and jump cue. 4x8 when going to a different hall with my wife and need all our cues.
I know cue protection is a hot topic for some, but for me, all protect the cues adequately for the way I use and carry them. My decision on case purchase is mainly artistic style.
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I know a guy that builds really nice cases. I'll PM you his # :grin-square:
Of course it figures you and John have already messed around with alarms. GPS tracker with a locking case could be a viable option.
Thanks. That case is an endoscope case. I just made the inside.
So you are willing to compromise "protection" for the sake of art?
The way I see it, for practical purposes a cue case is a collection of compromises. There are several leading case makers, each has his talent, his following, and his designs. I don't think any one is best.
What will be best for a particular individual will be the result of their expectations which generally comes from their experience.
Personally I like box cases and I like tube cases (Fellini style). I have several examples of both and really like them.
I also dig envelope cases but I don't have one yet.
I don't think that anybody makes an "uncompromised protection case" currently, outside of perhaps something like Danbuilt road cases from Dan Dishaw...but those are hardly for daily use.
JB has put a lot of thought and experience into his cases and linings with a concentration on his ideas of protecting cues. I think he has done a fine job. Does that mean his cases are the best? No. Are they among the best? Yes, I think so.
What it really comes down to is what one personally wants in and expects from a cue case.
I don't believe that any of the leading case makers provide inadequate protection at all.
I personally do not prefer the type of case that you posted. I am not a fan of tooled leather. Yes, it is a great art. Just not my thing, it has to do with my father who introduced me to leather. He saw tooled leather as "damaged".
Tooling also requires veg tanned leather, which is IMHO far inferior to some other leathers for the purposes of protecting cues. I really dig oil tanned leather.
I was very happy to see JB make more of the oil tanned leather cases. I think they are not just superior to veg tanned cases but in fact far superior. I also think his nylon cases are probably the best value going.
To understand the durability of oil tanned leather, have a look at some good motorcycle boots. Not the pussy-whipped color-coordinated crotch rocket boots, but "real" motorcycle boots. Oil tanned. Then get a piece of thick oil tanned leather and try to cut it with whatever tool you like. Try to scrape it, ding it, scuff it. Then try that with some oil tanned leather. Then get them both wet. You know what happens when veg tan gets wet of course, you have tooled it, so you know. It needs to be sealed with coatings and that generally leaves the back side vulnerable as well as the seems which will wick up water even in a well coated case. Oil tanned? Water is a joke on oil tanned leather. The differences are positively astounding.
The tooled cases are beautiful. But as a case first and foremost they fail IMHO. Why? How can one claim to protect something with a case when said case cannot even protect itself?
My last testimony for oil tanned comes not from a pool cue case example but from my own motorcycle boots. I took a shortcut through an alley back about 1996. I was trying to get to the welding shop where I was putting together a chopper frame. What I didn't know was that somebody kept a pitbull in that alley. There was a gate...but I just had not thought anything of it as I went through. The damned dog let me get to the other end, to the other gate, then came up behind me and clamped down on my calf. He wasn't going to let me leave. Ever see a pitbull destroy a baseball bat or bowling ball? You know how powerful their jaws are. Did it hurt? Hell yeah. How was my leg? Just fine. I think the dog was pretty stunned when my other boot connected with the side of his head as I spun around. I was wearing oil tanned motorcycle boots. If I had not been then I would have very likely been in need of very fast transport to an emergency room.
There are many aspects to such a discussion and my own views are pretty well outside the norm, I know that. It's just how I see things.
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Several tanning processes transform hides and skins into leather:
Vegetable-tanned leather is tanned using tannin and other ingredients found in vegetable matter, such as tree bark prepared in bark mills, and other similar sources. It is supple and brown in color, with the exact shade depending on the mix of chemicals and the color of the skin. It is the only form of leather suitable for use in leather carving or stamping. Vegetable-tanned leather is not stable in water; it tends to discolor, so if left to soak and then dry it will shrink and become less supple, and harder. In hot water, it will shrink drastically and partly gelatinize, becoming rigid and eventually brittle. Boiled leather is an example of this, where the leather has been hardened by being immersed in hot water, or in boiled wax or similar substances. Historically, it was occasionally used as armor after hardening, and it has also been used for book binding.
Chrome-tanned leather, invented in 1858, is tanned using chromium sulfate and other salts of chromium. It is more supple and pliable than vegetable-tanned leather and does not discolor or lose shape as drastically in water as vegetable-tanned. It is also known as wet-blue for its color derived from the chromium. More esoteric colors are possible using chrome tanning.
Aldehyde-tanned leather is tanned using glutaraldehyde or oxazolidine compounds. This is the leather that most tanners refer to as wet-white leather due to its pale cream or white color. It is the main type of "chrome-free" leather, often seen in automobiles and shoes for infants.
Formaldehyde tanning (being phased out due to its danger to workers and the sensitivity of many people to formaldehyde) is another method of aldehyde tanning. Brain-tanned leathers fall into this category and are exceptionally water absorbent.
Brain tanned leathers are made by a labor-intensive process which uses emulsified oils, often those of animal brains. They are known for their exceptional softness and their ability to be washed.
Chamois leather also falls into the category of aldehyde tanning and, like brain tanning, produces a highly water-absorbent leather. Chamois leather is made by using oils (traditionally cod oil) that oxidize easily to produce the aldehydes that tan the leather to make the fabric the color it is.
Rose tanned leather is a variation of vegetable oil tanning and brain tanning, where pure rose otto replaces the vegetable oil and emulsified oils. It has been called the most valuable leather on earth, but this is mostly due to the high cost of rose otto and its labor-intensive tanning process.
Synthetic-tanned leather is tanned using aromatic polymers such as the Novolac or Neradol types (syntans, contraction for synthetic tannins). This leather is white in color and was invented when vegetable tannins were in short supply during the Second World War. Melamine and other amino-functional resins fall into this category as well, and they provide the filling that modern leathers often require. Urea-formaldehyde resins were also used in this tanning method until dissatisfaction about the formation of free formaldehyde was realized.
Alum-tawed leather is transformed using aluminium salts mixed with a variety of binders and protein sources, such as flour and egg yolk. Alum-tawed leather is technically not tanned, as tannic acid is not used, and the resulting material will revert back to rawhide if soaked in water long enough to remove the alum salts. Very light shades of leather are possible using this process, but the resulting material is not as supple as vegetable-tanned leather.[1]
Rawhide is made by scraping the skin thin, soaking it in lime, and then stretching it while it dries. Like alum-tawing, rawhide is not technically "leather"[citation needed], but is usually lumped in with the other forms. Rawhide is stiffer and more brittle than other forms of leather; it's primarily found in uses such as drum heads and parchment where it does not need to flex significantly; it is also cut up into cords for use in lacing or stitching and for making many varieties of dog chews.
Leather—usually vegetable-tanned—can be oiled to improve its water resistance. This supplements the natural oils remaining in the leather itself, which can be washed out through repeated exposure to water. Frequent oiling of leather, with mink oil, neatsfoot oil, or a similar material keeps it supple and improves its lifespan dramatically.
Vegetable-tanned leather is tanned using tannin and other ingredients found in vegetable matter, such as tree bark prepared in bark mills, and other similar sources. It is supple and brown in color, with the exact shade depending on the mix of chemicals and the color of the skin. It is the only form of leather suitable for use in leather carving or stamping. Vegetable-tanned leather is not stable in water; it tends to discolor, so if left to soak and then dry it will shrink and become less supple, and harder. In hot water, it will shrink drastically and partly gelatinize, becoming rigid and eventually brittle. Boiled leather is an example of this, where the leather has been hardened by being immersed in hot water, or in boiled wax or similar substances. Historically, it was occasionally used as armor after hardening, and it has also been used for book binding.
Chrome-tanned leather, invented in 1858, is tanned using chromium sulfate and other salts of chromium. It is more supple and pliable than vegetable-tanned leather and does not discolor or lose shape as drastically in water as vegetable-tanned. It is also known as wet-blue for its color derived from the chromium. More esoteric colors are possible using chrome tanning.
Aldehyde-tanned leather is tanned using glutaraldehyde or oxazolidine compounds. This is the leather that most tanners refer to as wet-white leather due to its pale cream or white color. It is the main type of "chrome-free" leather, often seen in automobiles and shoes for infants.
Formaldehyde tanning (being phased out due to its danger to workers and the sensitivity of many people to formaldehyde) is another method of aldehyde tanning. Brain-tanned leathers fall into this category and are exceptionally water absorbent.
Brain tanned leathers are made by a labor-intensive process which uses emulsified oils, often those of animal brains. They are known for their exceptional softness and their ability to be washed.
Chamois leather also falls into the category of aldehyde tanning and, like brain tanning, produces a highly water-absorbent leather. Chamois leather is made by using oils (traditionally cod oil) that oxidize easily to produce the aldehydes that tan the leather to make the fabric the color it is.
Rose tanned leather is a variation of vegetable oil tanning and brain tanning, where pure rose otto replaces the vegetable oil and emulsified oils. It has been called the most valuable leather on earth, but this is mostly due to the high cost of rose otto and its labor-intensive tanning process.
Synthetic-tanned leather is tanned using aromatic polymers such as the Novolac or Neradol types (syntans, contraction for synthetic tannins). This leather is white in color and was invented when vegetable tannins were in short supply during the Second World War. Melamine and other amino-functional resins fall into this category as well, and they provide the filling that modern leathers often require. Urea-formaldehyde resins were also used in this tanning method until dissatisfaction about the formation of free formaldehyde was realized.
Alum-tawed leather is transformed using aluminium salts mixed with a variety of binders and protein sources, such as flour and egg yolk. Alum-tawed leather is technically not tanned, as tannic acid is not used, and the resulting material will revert back to rawhide if soaked in water long enough to remove the alum salts. Very light shades of leather are possible using this process, but the resulting material is not as supple as vegetable-tanned leather.[1]
Rawhide is made by scraping the skin thin, soaking it in lime, and then stretching it while it dries. Like alum-tawing, rawhide is not technically "leather"[citation needed], but is usually lumped in with the other forms. Rawhide is stiffer and more brittle than other forms of leather; it's primarily found in uses such as drum heads and parchment where it does not need to flex significantly; it is also cut up into cords for use in lacing or stitching and for making many varieties of dog chews.
Leather—usually vegetable-tanned—can be oiled to improve its water resistance. This supplements the natural oils remaining in the leather itself, which can be washed out through repeated exposure to water. Frequent oiling of leather, with mink oil, neatsfoot oil, or a similar material keeps it supple and improves its lifespan dramatically.
To me cases have two parts. The interior which needs to be made as protective as possible and the exterior which should be as durable as possible.
As for what leather is toughest. Well, veg tan and oil tan both have their uses and both are incredibly tough. I poured a whole cup of water on a tooled case this past weekend just to show a customer he didn't have to be afraid of water.
Clearly you properly treated and sealed the leather.
We have all seen well worn cases made of tooled veg tanned leather. They are generally not so pretty. The applied sealers and finishes wear through, the leather becomes stained and mottled, it loses it's shape as the worn veg tan becomes flacid, it picks up scars, indentations, and other marks.
Both are tough. Both are great.
For me the oil tanned wins. But that's me. It's simply my preference and it's only because I feel it is more durable. No other reason.
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I am by no means saying you are wrong. For me, oil tanned is the clear winner where durability is concerned.
Best quote I heard this weekend was rain never hurt the cow.
Actually there is a myth about water and leather. When veg tan leather is tooled it is made wet with either a sponge or even fully immersed in either water or a solution intended to make it more supple for carving. This is called casing.
The myth is that water is bad for leather. It's not. When you see water stains on leather you are actually seeing the minerals left over when water is not wiped from the surface and it evaporates leaving the minerals behind.
For oil tan that's actually a misnomer. Oil tan is simply a chrome tan leather that has been saturated with oil. There are many levels of oil tan from very durable to weak. There is actually no such method called oil tanning. But consumers and distributors took to calling oil saturated leather "oil tan" and it stuck. We sometimes will saturate vegtan and make it into a faux oil tan at the customer's request.
Leather is one of the greatest materials we have. It runs the gamut and each type has tons of uses. As a case maker I delight in figuring out great ways to use leather.
I am familiar with what you are saying about oil tan but I am also confident you are aware of the leathers that I am talking about when I say oil tan. You have sold "oil tan" cases. Obviously, there is a place for the term and I think it's more than just marketing even if it isn't a proper term in tanning.
Clearly there are a wide variety of all types of leathers with a variety of durability. That conversation would never end.
Cows are alive. Leather is not. Inadequately or improperly tanned leather will rot. Even properly tanned leather will grow lots of mold.
I have done tooling, many years ago, so I understand the process in general. That is why I made the reference to tooling when talking about the effects of water.
The minerals left over that make a stain after water has been allowed to penetrate leather are in fact harmful to the leather. They will degrade the structure of the leather over time. One should avoid getting it wet and when one does it should be air dried slowly. Even better IMHO is to use a leather with a lot of oil in it that will not soak up the water.
So indeed, the water itself it not so harmful...but the solutes and molds it brings certainly are.
Living cows have living skin that does not soak up water, it is in many regards water proof. Leather is not living skin and most leathers are not water proof.
Ever see a moldy or stained cow?
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Clearly there are a wide variety of all types of leathers with a variety of durability. That conversation would never end.
Cows are alive. Leather is not. Inadequately or improperly tanned leather will rot. Even properly tanned leather will grow lots of mold.
I have done tooling, many years ago, so I understand the process in general. That is why I made the reference to tooling when talking about the effects of water.
The minerals left over that make a stain after water has been allowed to penetrate leather are in fact harmful to the leather. They will degrade the structure of the leather over time. One should avoid getting it wet and when one does it should be air dried slowly. Even better IMHO is to use a leather with a lot of oil in it that will not soak up the water.
So indeed, the water itself it not so harmful...but the solutes and molds it brings certainly are.
Living cows have living skin that does not soak up water, it is in many regards water proof. Leather is not living skin and most leathers are not water proof.
Ever see a moldy or stained cow?
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in all categories of leather... veg tanned is the most expensive...
off course overtime and if not treated it will mold... but after heavy tooling if u treat the leather with a good oil (neatsfoot for example)... it will last a life time... but again u will have to atleast 1 time a year give it a good treatment...
off course overtime and if not treated it will mold... but after heavy tooling if u treat the leather with a good oil (neatsfoot for example)... it will last a life time... but again u will have to atleast 1 time a year give it a good treatment...
Indeed.
And I have to admit that proper maintenance is key in the longevity of any leather in fact, including those that I prefer. Leather is "dead" and cannot replenish it's own natural oils.
For me, if I were to order my "ideal" case from JB (and it would be from JB by the way) it would be constructed primarily of an oil tanned "boot leather". I would ask for a beefed up case bottom design that would incorporate some of the construction features of a boot sole. The "standard" designs already loosely incorporate some such features, of course, but I would lean more toward boot than case. I would in fact want some tooled accent panels, but they would not be any part of the primary structure of the case and would not be part of anywhere subjected to structural stress or primary wear. I would want his interior but I would ask him to please go "money no object" on the material, I believe it is likely there are better materials that simply are not used because of their price...if there is such material, that's what I would want. I would also seek to have the primary internal tube structure made of carbon fiber.
The case would obviously not be optimized for lightness. It would also require a completely new design that does not, as far as I know, currently exist. I expect it would also be very expensive especially considering how "plain" it would be. But to me it would be the "ultimate".
I have often thought of doing this myself and actually thought to take the case to a shoe repair shop to have the case bottom constructed in a manner consistent with the best hand-made boots.
This is just my vision as I have said before. It's just how I feel about the leather and construction. Obviously there are many factors involved and there will be at least as many opinions.
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That's a heck of an idea Chop, but I don't think it would be as expensive as you think. pry less than $600 retail for sure I would think.
I in some way agree with you...
I run a tannery for 20 years... n that's my main core business...
u can't go wrong with "sole" veg leather if u want a simple non tooled case... n it will last u 3 generations...n always maintains the look u like... probably look better over many years...
choosing a jb case is a good idea too...cause jb is very good at what he does n for sure ull be happy....
anyway interesting discussion....
Justin.... ur free to tell anybody how much I charged you for your case...
Maybe so, I don't know. But I figure that the design time costs money, and also there would be the custom carbon fiber tube, unless an appropriate size/shape tube can be found off the shelf. It certainly wouldn't be a "cheap" case to build.
Oh...and since it would be my idea of a "balls to the walls" case it would have to be a 3x6.
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Roger only charged me $600 for my case. Your's cannot be much more than that.
here's my case BTW.
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