An unusual foul called on me, anyone know this rule?

cigardave said:
Calling fouls based on sound is ridiculous. Where will the absurdity end?

Re scooping the cue ball over a blocking ball, I believe that the significant difference between it and a legal jump shot is the stroke. The stroke on a legal jump shot is a straight-line motion along the axis of the cue... as is every other "legal" stroke. The scoop shot is not in a straight line motion along the axis of the cue.
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What is your case for suggesting that it would either be ridiculous or absurd?

Given a standard leather tipped cue, the clicking sound is made by the tip or ferrule contacting the cb.

By rule, contacting the CB with any part of the cue other than the tip is a foul.

Given that there is nothing else in the world that would cause that distinctive sound other than ILLEGAL ferrule/shaft contact when on God's earth is "ridiculous" about using one of the 5 senses to determine a foul??

Granted, it has never been done and therefore is certainly at odds with tradition but SO WHAT? It is certainly not "ridiculous" to use a sound that CAN ONLY occur due to illegal cue contact to call such a foul.

Non-traditional? Yes. Ridiculous or absurd...no...unless you think that PHYSICS is ridicuous...which you well may.

Jim
 
av84fun said:
Yes there is...It's called IQ. Can you cite one single professional player who uses a phenolic tip on his or her normal playing cue? Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

It is not NECESSARILY a foul to muscue on a jump shot is it?

Show me where I stated that I think that fouls on miscues would ever be implemented.

Jim
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Yes, it's an automatic foul to miscue on a jump shot. Yes, I've seen players use break-cues w/ phenolic tips as playing cues at tournaments (albeit, out of desperation).


Regarding your final statement - you suggest as much when you state that sound should be used as a determinant for a miscue. If miscues are legal, there is no need to pay attention to the sound.
 
cigardave said:
Calling fouls based on sound is ridiculous. Where will the absurdity end?

Re scooping the cue ball over a blocking ball, I believe that the significant difference between it and a legal jump shot is the stroke. The stroke on a legal jump shot is a straight-line motion along the axis of the cue... as is every other "legal" stroke. The scoop shot is not in a straight line motion along the axis of the cue.
Click to expand...


Bob has already pointed out one fallacy in your above comment. Another is your assertion that "every legal stroke is a straight-line motion along the axis of the cue."

That statment is wrong on it face because you didn't mention WHICH axis. If you meant the longitudial axis, you are still incorrect. Many players use a swiping motion from time to time which involves motion about the vertical axis as well.

Jim
 
av84fun said:
...the clicking sound is made by the tip or ferrule contacting the cb.
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Can you provide a link to some high speed footage that documents what you state as fact... i.e., the ferrule contacting the cue ball on a miscue? If so, pls provide such. I am of the opinion that the "miscue sound" is of the cue tip contacting the cue ball... and every miscue is not necessarily a foul.

And re physics... fwiw, I am a mechanical engineer (BSME Southern Illinois University, 1979). ;)
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Yes, it's an automatic foul to miscue on a jump shot. Yes, I've seen players use break-cues w/ phenolic tips as playing cues at tournaments (albeit, out of desperation).


Regarding your final statement - you suggest as much when you state that sound should be used as a determinant for a miscue. If miscues are legal, there is no need to pay attention to the sound.
Click to expand...

I checked the rules and could find no such rule in the WSRs. It is illegal under BCA rules however.

But if you are going to use BCA rules then ANY miscue which is accompanied by the clicking sound is a foul BY RULE.


3.3 STRIKING CUE BALL
Legal shots require that the cue ball be struck only with the cue tip. Failure to meet this requirement is a foul.

PERIOD! The clicking sound can ONLY be caused by the ferrule/shaft and cannot be produced with a leather tip.

Re: your MAJOR stretch of logic...I can imagine that someone has been forced to play with his break cue if his playing cue tip popped off or if the player "pulled an Earl" and smashed his cue to pieces.

But THEN the clicking sound would NOT be definitive and therefore, would be improperly used to call the illegal contact foul.
'
BUT, if the tip is leather, then the sound IS definitive....period.

I FULLY UNDERSTAND that such fouls are never called...even by BCA refs but that doesn't mean that the miscue accompanied by the sound is not illegal BY RULE.

And why SHOULD any miscue on a jump shot be a foul under BCA rules...if the CB misses the blocker, hits the OB and one of them proceeds to a rail??

Why should that be a foul???? BECAUSE THE FERRULE OR SHAFT CONTACTED THE CB...that's why!

(-:
 
cigardave said:
Can you provide a link to some high speed footage that documents what you state as fact... i.e., the ferrule contacting the cue ball on a miscue? If so, pls provide such. I am of the opinion that the "miscue sound" is of the cue tip contacting the cue ball... and every miscue is not necessarily a foul.

And re physics... fwiw, I am a mechanical engineer (BSME Southern Illinois University, 1979). ;)
Click to expand...



I read this thread and immediatly whent to the link below...

It appears as if the above post is correct... I will say this...that second hit sound sure sounds like ferrule quite often on a miscue.....;)

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-14.htm


Like I said in previous posts...you can't call the miscue a foul on your opponent....but if you look at them...thier reaction will usuallty tell you if it was a double hit...(unless they are good actors or just have no clue)....:)
 
cigardave said:
Can you provide a link to some high speed footage that documents what you state as fact... i.e., the ferrule contacting the cue ball on a miscue? If so, pls provide such. I am of the opinion that the "miscue sound" is of the cue tip contacting the cue ball... and every miscue is not necessarily a foul.

And re physics... fwiw, I am a mechanical engineer (BSME Southern Illinois University, 1979). ;)
Click to expand...

Yes, there is such footage...here ya go.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/HSV2-1.htm

But your thesis that a leather cue tip can cause the clicking sound is unsupportable. There is nothing relating to the physical properties of a piece of leather commonly used to make cue tips that would cause that noise.

As far as education is concerned, I am a lowly graduate of the School of Hard Knocks...but I know better than to ask if such footage exists without looking for it myself.

Jim
 
av84fun said:
I checked the rules and could find no such rule in the WSRs. It is illegal under BCA rules however.

But if you are going to use BCA rules then ANY miscue which is accompanied by the clicking sound is a foul BY RULE.


3.3 STRIKING CUE BALL
Legal shots require that the cue ball be struck only with the cue tip. Failure to meet this requirement is a foul.

PERIOD! The clicking sound can ONLY be caused by the ferrule/shaft and cannot be produced with a leather tip.

Re: your MAJOR stretch of logic...I can imagine that someone has been forced to play with his break cue if his playing cue tip popped off or if the player "pulled an Earl" and smashed his cue to pieces.

But THEN the clicking sound would NOT be definitive and therefore, would be improperly used to call the illegal contact foul.
'
BUT, if the tip is leather, then the sound IS definitive....period.

I FULLY UNDERSTAND that such fouls are never called...even by BCA refs but that doesn't mean that the miscue accompanied by the sound is not illegal BY RULE.

And why SHOULD any miscue on a jump shot be a foul under BCA rules...if the CB misses the blocker, hits the OB and one of them proceeds to a rail??

Why should that be a foul???? BECAUSE THE FERRULE OR SHAFT CONTACTED THE CB...that's why!

(-:
Click to expand...

Jim, I'm curious - Have you ever played in a BCA event?
 
av84fun said:
Yes, there is such footage...here ya go.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/HSV2-1.htm

But your thesis that a leather cue tip can cause the clicking sound is unsupportable. There is nothing relating to the physical properties of a piece of leather commonly used to make cue tips that would cause that noise.

As far as education is concerned, I am a lowly graduate of the School of Hard Knocks...but I know better than to ask if such footage exists without looking for it myself.

Jim
Click to expand...


Have you ever talked about these topics with a BCA referee? Do you know a BCA referee?
 
av84fun said:
Yes, there is such footage...here ya go.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/HSV2-1.htm

But your thesis that a leather cue tip can cause the clicking sound is unsupportable. There is nothing relating to the physical properties of a piece of leather commonly used to make cue tips that would cause that noise.

As far as education is concerned, I am a lowly graduate of the School of Hard Knocks...but I know better than to ask if such footage exists without looking for it myself.

Jim
Click to expand...
Find me footage that's applicable... that certainly is not. The tip has not been chalked. Get real, dude.
 
BRKNRUN said:
I read this thread and immediatly whent to the link below...

It appears as if the above post is correct... I will say this...that second hit sound sure sounds like ferrule quite often on a miscue.....;)

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-14.htm


Like I said in previous posts...you can't call the miscue a foul on your opponent....but if you look at them...thier reaction will usuallty tell you if it was a double hit...(unless they are good actors or just have no clue)....:)
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Ken, that is a double hit foul not a miscue. Dr_Dave, your video is mis-labeled as a "miscue."

Regards,
Jim
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Have you ever talked about these topics with a BCA referee? Do you know a BCA referee?
Click to expand...

Do you know the framers of the Constitution? Ever talked to any of them?

What's your problem.....dude???

(-:
 
av84fun said:
Ken, that is a double hit foul not a miscue. Dr_Dave, your video is mis-labeled as a "miscue."

Regards,
Jim
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Im not sure it is labled incorrectly...I think it IS correctly labled.....I think the double hit is a result of the mis-cue...which is what I think the actual foul in this thread should be called...

I don't think the miscue itself is the foul...There are other clips that show single hit miscues.....

The fould is the cue (any portion) hitting the CB a second time...Determining if that second hit happend is what the whole problem is...;)
 
BRKNRUN said:
Im not sure it is labled incorrectly...I think it IS correctly labled.....I think the double hit is a result of the mis-cue...which is what I think the actual foul in this thread should be called...

I don't think the miscue itself is the foul...There are other clips that show single hit miscues.....

The fould is the cue (any portion) hitting the CB a second time...Determining if that second hit happend is what the whole problem is...;)
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Ken, a miscue, in and of itself is not deemed a foul except on a jump shot under BCA rules.

A double hit is ALWAYS a foul. It can happen along with a miscue but is still not a "miscue." It is a "foul" and is referred to as a foul and not as a miscue under both WSR and BCA rules.

Regards,
Jim
 
av84fun said:
Do you know the framers of the Constitution? Ever talked to any of them?

What's your problem.....dude???

(-:
Click to expand...


At least my questions are related to the subject. Listen, I know how BCA refs rule because I have to deal with them. I don't think you do. I think you bring up valid points but these points are philosophical more than practical.

You started off by saying to the OP that it is "CLEARLY a foul". Well, here is the scoop. Here's the end all be all. The final say. The bottom line. It's NOT and do you want to know why? Because a ref won't see it that way. Do you want to know why I know this? Because I've been there and done that.

All these things you bring up would be nice to bring up at the BCA Referee Meetings. So continue with your argument for sound-judgement and whether or not players use leather tips all the time or not. That's cool. I don't see how that's going to help you when it comes time to play.

Do you care about how these things are actually called or do you just like to give your opinion on how they should be called?
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
At least my questions are related to the subject. Listen, I know how BCA refs rule because I have to deal with them. I don't think you do. I think you bring up valid points but these points are philosophical more than practical.

You started off by saying to the OP that it is "CLEARLY a foul". Well, here is the scoop. Here's the end all be all. The final say. The bottom line. It's NOT and do you want to know why? Because a ref won't see it that way. Do you want to know why I know this? Because I've been there and done that.

All these things you bring up would be nice to bring up at the BCA Referee Meetings. So continue with your argument for sound-judgement and whether or not players use leather tips all the time or not. That's cool. I don't see how that's going to help you when it comes time to play.

Do you care about how these things are actually called or do you just like to give your opinion on how they should be called?
Click to expand...

Oh snap!:D:D
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
At least my questions are related to the subject. Listen, I know how BCA refs rule because I have to deal with them. I don't think you do. I think you bring up valid points but these points are philosophical more than practical.

You started off by saying to the OP that it is "CLEARLY a foul". Well, here is the scoop. Here's the end all be all. The final say. The bottom line. It's NOT and do you want to know why? Because a ref won't see it that way. Do you want to know why I know this? Because I've been there and done that.

All these things you bring up would be nice to bring up at the BCA Referee Meetings. So continue with your argument for sound-judgement and whether or not players use leather tips all the time or not. That's cool. I don't see how that's going to help you when it comes time to play.

Do you care about how these things are actually called or do you just like to give your opinion on how they should be called?[/QUOTE]

Well, good for you for settling down after your preposterous nonsense about players shooting pool with their break cues.

In case you didn't get the memo, rules of all sports are modified regularly and discussions, such as have taken place in this thread OFTEN lead to rules changes.

So, do you care about freezing the rules as they are now...forever...by constituional amendment or should rules be discussed for the purpose of either changing them or re-wording them to avoid confusion.

UNDER THE BCA RULES AS WRITTEN MISCUES THAT INVOLVE FERRULE OR SHAFT CONTACT WITH THE CUE BALL ARE FOULS!

THE FACT THAT THEY ARE NOT CALLED AS SUCH IS A PROBLEM THAT SHOULD BE ADDRESSED SO AS TO CHANGE THE RULE OR REWORD IT.

GET IT??????????
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