An Upset Karen Corr at World 10 Ball Championship

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michaelm

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Has anyone seen this video of Karen Corr at the World 10 Ball Championship? I have never seen her so upset. She is so passionate and persistent in her determination to have the foul call revoked.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE3yf7eiBa4

It all happens around 2:30 in the youtube video.
I think the decision by Jay Helfert to give Karen 10 seconds to shoot the shot was fair and correct. That referee talked to softly with his "no mo" warning to Karen about her already taking her extension that no one would be able to hear him. The loudness of the facility in which they were playing doesn't help either.
 
michaelm said:
Has anyone seen this video of Karen Corr at the World 10 Ball Championship? I have never seen her so upset. She is so passionate and persistent in her determination to have the foul call revoked.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE3yf7eiBa4

It all happens around 2:30 in the youtube video.
I think the decision by Jay Helfert to give Karen 10 seconds to shoot the shot was fair and correct. That referee talked to softly with his "no mo" warning to Karen about her already taking her extension that no one would be able to hear him. The loudness of the facility in which they were playing doesn't help either.
Click to expand...

Being "fair' aside...Is there an actual rule allowing for Jay's compromise settlement, or did he create his own rule on the fly? Just curious.

Like to hear Jay's mindset in his own words.

Jim
 
michaelm said:
Has anyone seen this video of Karen Corr at the World 10 Ball Championship? I have never seen her so upset. She is so passionate and persistent in her determination to have the foul call revoked.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE3yf7eiBa4

It all happens around 2:30 in the youtube video.
I think the decision by Jay Helfert to give Karen 10 seconds to shoot the shot was fair and correct. That referee talked to softly with his "no mo" warning to Karen about her already taking her extension that no one would be able to hear him. The loudness of the facility in which they were playing doesn't help either.
Click to expand...

I disagree; I think it should have been a foul when she did not shoot in time. She did not have any extensions left and she did not shoot before the clock ran out; therefore, it should have been a foul.

Thanks for the link, it was definitely an interetsing situation.
 
I guess the question is whether or not a player is supposed to remember if they took their extension or have a ref notify them of having already takin their extension.
 
Similar thing happened to Alex Pagualyan last year on the guinnesse tour. Ref called 10 second warning, Alex didn't hear and he was called for a time foul. The foul was enforced.

I hate seeing matches or games decided by technicalities that have nothing to do with quality of play, however she should have kept track of her extensions. In the snooker premier league they get 5 extensions per match, they have to keep track of it themselves.
 
This is an interesting situation. I suspect Jay's 'compromise' was improvisational--I doubt there is anything explicit in the rules that addresses when a player does not hear the referee tell her that she has already used her extension. By the letter of the rules, she probably should not have been allowed to take the shot. I think Jay was trying to be fair though, and in fairness to Karen I think it's clear that she didn't hear the ref say that she had already used her extension. He should have made sure she heard him, IMO.

My question is, who won the match? Does anyone know?
 
how about this

Put one of these out there and the players can see how long they have left, simple as that.
 

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He said, she said doesn't matter. The system is flawed. I can't say if the ruling was correct or not, but I am sure Jay made the best of it. There needs to be a visible clock showing remaining extensions and an audible alarm at the 10 second mark.
 
I think it should of been a foul since Karen is suppose to remember if she used her extension or not. It worked out that her opponent won that game anyway - Justice!
 
Well, gee Officer... Yes, I was doing 85, but I didn't see the sign that said 55... You can't give me a ticket.. I didn't know..
 
bradsh98 said:
Well, gee Officer... Yes, I was doing 85, but I didn't see the sign that said 55... You can't give me a ticket.. I didn't know..
Click to expand...

In Ohio, that can be a recognized excuse. Many small towns put up speed traps by making the speed signs hard to see so that they can collect the ticket money. When found guilty people have won on appeal to a higher court. One town on the outside of Columbus lost their police department when the higher courts deemed they were a nothing more than a speed trap so were no longer allowed to give traffic tickets.

Dick
 
I don't agree with the call, even though I really do admire Karen Corr. As a player, it's her responsibility -- not the tournament staff -- to know how many times she's asked for an extension.

That said, calls happens all the time in baseball that everybody doesn't agree with. The referee makes the final ruling, and whether it's right or wrong, that's the way it's going to go down. That is why they have ruling authorities in competitions. :)
 
I like how she said "How am I supposed to remember how many extensions I got, that's why we have these boys" and motions to the guy sitting down.

I think in light of the whole mess, Jay offered a fair ruling. She was told she had 10 seconds and that's when she got up to argue. So by giving her 10 seconds, it was just putting her right back where it all started.
 
JAM said:
I don't agree with the call, even though I really do admire Karen Corr. As a player, it's her responsibility -- not the tournament staff -- to know how many times she's asked for an extension.

That said, calls happens all the time in baseball that everybody doesn't agree with. The referee makes the final ruling, and whether it's right or wrong, that's the way it's going to go down. That is why they have ruling authorities in competitions. :)
Click to expand...

If a dispute arises in a baseball game as to whether a baserunner touched first base on his way to second and the umpire has to make a ruling, the ruling is limited to "whether or not first base was stepped on", not whether the baserunner had a good enough reason not to step on the base. Can you imagine such a situation occuring during the final game of a World Series?

Jay's integrity or knowledge is positively not being put into question here, nor am I suggesting that it becomes the issue, Jay brought instant control to the situation, and did it seamlessly. But I am curious whether there are official "universal" 10 ball rules, especially for major tournaments, that either address this situation or that allow for these type of "compromise decisions" to be made. I am also suggesting that there definitely should be official and universal game rules in order to prevent placing officials in situations where they are forced to ad-lib decision making. I believe that having such rules is necessary for all major sports and would instantly add credibility to the sport of pool. IMO

Jim
 
Personally

"CaliRed". said:
I like how she said "How am I supposed to remember how many extensions I got, that's why we have these boys" and motions to the guy sitting down.

I think in light of the whole mess, Jay offered a fair ruling. She was told she had 10 seconds and that's when she got up to argue. So by giving her 10 seconds, it was just putting her right back where it all started.
Click to expand...

While I can see both sides of the dispute, I don't think she should have gotten another turn at the table. It's your responsibility to remember the timeouts you took, regardless. While the noise, and the lowness of the Ref's voice played a part, I don't believe she would have gotten a shot off even if she heard him. There was a good 5 seconds wasted when she stood up to ask for the extension.

I'd still like to hear Jay's thoughts too.
 
I hear on Espn all the time during WPBA matches that if a player is down on the shot Steve Tipton will not call foul even if the player's time is up, but if the player gets up at all Steve will call a foul. This is a recent changeover, I think, because I remember older WPBA matches before, say, 2004, where Steve would call foul no matter what the player's stance may be.
 
A rule may be needed

In the event a player is given a 10 second warning the player must respond with extension or shoot within the time left. If the player does neither then it is a foul.
How about if the player calls extension the ref must reply "given" or "not given" the player must immediately acknowledge that call much the same as in 3 foul one player must advise the other they are on 2 fouls and that player must acknowledge the warning.
If the player doesn't respond then the ref repeats "given" or "not given" if the player still doesn't respond and time runs out the foul stands no matter what.
Ultimately the responsibility should fall to the player to know what is going on. After all they are professionals .
 
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