Anatomy of A Mis-Cue

BRKNRUN

BRKNRUN

Showin some A$$
Silver Member
I would like to read some thoughts on what people say what is the reason for a mis-cue...

It seems obvious that the most times a miscue happens is with draw or worse yet draw coupled with english.....but what exactly is happening in the stroke that causes this mis-cue???...and why does it seem to happen far less with extreme top english???

Tip to hard? Tip too soft? Does the tip deflect/slide off the CB? Could the tip be dipping at impact due to Elbow drop or (lack) of elbow drop? Bridge hand moving? Jerky stroke? etc. etc...

What is the anatomy of this dreaded Mis-Cue?
 
BRKNRUN said:
I would like to read some thoughts on what people say what is the reason for a mis-cue...

It seems obvious that the most times a miscue happens is with draw or worse yet draw coupled with english.....but what exactly is happening in the stroke that causes this mis-cue???...and why does it seem to happen far less with extreme top english???

Tip to hard? Tip too soft? Does the tip deflect/slide off the CB? Could the tip be dipping at impact due to Elbow drop or (lack) of elbow drop? Bridge hand moving? Jerky stroke? etc. etc...

What is the anatomy of this dreaded Mis-Cue?
Click to expand...

There are two main causes:

You hit further out on the edge of the ball than you can hit without miscuing.

OR, if you didn't do that, then your tip didn't have a good coating of chalk on the part of it that contacted the CB, and thus the tip location that would have otherwise been okay, was still too far to work without good chalk.

Now, these causes in turn have their causes. Inconsistent stroke is the most likely culprit. If you've developed a good, smooth, reliable stroke, and nerves make you "jerk" the cue, you're probably not going to hit the CB where you intend. Many try to claim that the jerk means inconsistent acceleration, and try to relate acceleration to miscue, but I don't buy it. I think it's about accurately placing the tip on the right point on the cue ball, or not.

And of course, having a good tip that holds chalk well will increase the chances that the part of the tip that contacts the ball will have a good layer of chalk on it.

-Andrew
 
You are not hitting where you want or think. When you miscue or make the ball jump you are usually hitting the cloth first. This is caused becuase of a bad stroke such as pumping, poking, lifting up etc.

One way to determine if you are stroking right and hitting the CB where you want is to get a training CB. That CB will easily hold the chalk and show where you are hitting.
 
Andrew Manning said:
There are two main causes:

You hit further out on the edge of the ball than you can hit without miscuing.

OR, if you didn't do that, then your tip didn't have a good coating of chalk on the part of it that contacted the CB, and thus the tip location that would have otherwise been okay, was still too far to work without good chalk.

Now, these causes in turn have their causes. Inconsistent stroke is the most likely culprit. If you've developed a good, smooth, reliable stroke, and nerves make you "jerk" the cue, you're probably not going to hit the CB where you intend. Many try to claim that the jerk means inconsistent acceleration, and try to relate acceleration to miscue, but I don't buy it. I think it's about accurately placing the tip on the right point on the cue ball, or not.
And of course, having a good tip that holds chalk well will increase the chances that the part of the tip that contacts the ball will have a good layer of chalk on it.

-Andrew
Click to expand...


This is what I am after...what is the anotomy of what is going on???

I am not sure about the acceleration part...but it seems like a miscue tends to happen quite frequently when you are trying to hit that soft draw or kill draw shot...(That shot the has a slight angle but you want to hold the CB from going way down table...so its like your hitting a "kill draw" )

Another specific type mis-cue is the draw with english....sometimes it seems like the tip deflects off the ball...even though struck exactly where intended.

I've wondered sometimes if the No Elbow drop can lead to a mis cue on a draw shot.... If you do not drop the Elbow, the tip must dip to the cloth...If the tip is starting to dip at impact, could the CB deflect the shaft into the cloth since it is already going in that direction......

The bigger question (debate) would be....Do you stay with the no elbow drop and move your grip hand back to delay the dip...(which also changes the timing of the delivery) or do you you maintain the same grip position and use elbow drop to maintain the tip tragectory?

NOTE: This is not a "I am learning to draw" question...this is more of a wanting to develope more extreme draw shots....I already have a farily good draw stroke.... The reason I am looking into the anatomy is to develope an even better draw stroke......without the dreaded...."clank"

So...what is the anatomy? ... What exactly is going on.
 
TheBook said:
You are not hitting where you want or think. When you miscue or make the ball jump you are usually hitting the cloth first. This is caused becuase of a bad stroke such as pumping, poking, lifting up etc.

One way to determine if you are stroking right and hitting the CB where you want is to get a training CB. That CB will easily hold the chalk and show where you are hitting.
Click to expand...


Is that the case, or could it be that the tip is deflecting off of the CB into the cloth?
 
BRKNRUN said:
This is what I am after...what is the anotomy of what is going on???

I am not sure about the acceleration part...but it seems like a miscue tends to happen quite frequently when you are trying to hit that soft draw or kill draw shot...(That shot the has a slight angle but you want to hold the CB from going way down table...so its like your hitting a "kill draw" )

Another specific type mis-cue is the draw with english....sometimes it seems like the tip deflects off the ball...even though struck exactly where intended.

I've wondered sometimes if the No Elbow drop can lead to a mis cue on a draw shot.... If you do not drop the Elbow, the tip must dip to the cloth...If the tip is starting to dip at impact, could the CB deflect the shaft into the cloth since it is already going in that direction......

The bigger question (debate) would be....Do you stay with the no elbow drop and move your grip hand back to delay the dip...(which also changes the timing of the delivery) or do you you maintain the same grip position and use elbow drop to maintain the tip tragectory?

NOTE: This is not a "I am learning to draw" question...this is more of a wanting to develope more extreme draw shots....I already have a farily good draw stroke.... The reason I am looking into the anatomy is to develope an even better draw stroke......without the dreaded...."clank"

So...what is the anatomy? ... What exactly is going on.
Click to expand...

Check out this article by George Onoda. You have to scroll down to the draw article.

Basically, a smaller diameter tip will allow the tip to contact the lowest extremety of the CB (the bottom of the stripe oriented horizontally).

In addition, a dime radius helps accomplish the same thing.

Then the issue becomes the accuracy of the stroke...i.e. do you actually leave a chalk mark on the bottom edge of the stripe or higher = less draw while lower = miscue and the force of the stroke.

IMHO, the most significant variable is stroke accuracy...the force...then tip size/shape. I say that because I am quite sure Nevel can impart wicked draw with a house cue...end of story.

Regards,
Jim
http://www.sfbilliards.com/onoda_all_txt.pdf
 
BRKNRUN said:
Never seen that site before...good stuff.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Miscue is the 1st one in the High-Speed video section, there may be more scattered throughout. It's a pretty good watch and will prove or dispove some things (such as close hits, double-kiss shots, throw, etc...)
 
BRKNRUN said:
Is that the case, or could it be that the tip is deflecting off of the CB into the cloth?
Click to expand...

Re: a miscue, the tip hits the cloth first and then rebounds upward into the bottom of the ball causing a miscue and jump which as we all know, can launch the CB entirely over the OB. I HATE it when that happens!

If the tip hits the CB first, it will be gone (the CB) before the tip could proceed down to the cloth and then back up again.

Regards,
Jim
 
av84fun said:
Check out this article by George Onoda. You have to scroll down to the draw article.

Basically, a smaller diameter tip will allow the tip to contact the lowest extremety of the CB (the bottom of the stripe oriented horizontally).

In addition, a dime radius helps accomplish the same thing.

Then the issue becomes the accuracy of the stroke...i.e. do you actually leave a chalk mark on the bottom edge of the stripe or higher = less draw while lower = miscue and the force of the stroke.

IMHO, the most significant variable is stroke accuracy...the force...then tip size/shape. I say that because I am quite sure Nevel can impart wicked draw with a house cue...end of story.

Regards,
Jim
http://www.sfbilliards.com/onoda_all_txt.pdf
Click to expand...


Another good article...Thanks

Now I can't wait to get home and try this... From the diagram I expect I could get to the perfect...(if not very near)...It could be way different when I actually set it up though.

I am aftet that Superhuman is the reason for the research.

I expect Larry Nevel has done some of the research/practice to get the draw stroke that he has.....
 
av84fun said:
Re: a miscue, the tip hits the cloth first and then rebounds upward into the bottom of the ball causing a miscue and jump which as we all know, can launch the CB entirely over the OB. I HATE it when that happens!

If the tip hits the CB first, it will be gone (the CB) before the tip could proceed down to the cloth and then back up again.

Regards,
Jim
Click to expand...

I looked at the high speed miscue draw shot from the link hang the 9 posted and it looks like the tip hits the CB and deflects down into the cloth...
 
BRKNRUN said:
I looked at the high speed miscue draw shot from the link hang the 9 posted and it looks like the tip hits the CB and deflects down into the cloth...
Click to expand...

Lots of technical and technique reasons for a miscue but tension (choking) can't be discounted as a big possibility. Tension tends to make a person hurry and not set up correctly or hurry their stroke and jab at the cueball thus the chances for a miscue dramatically increases.

The more miscues that happens and the more someone thinks about it, the more the psycholgoical aspect comes into play.
 
BRKNRUN said:
This is what I am after...what is the anotomy of what is going on???

I am not sure about the acceleration part...but it seems like a miscue tends to happen quite frequently when you are trying to hit that soft draw or kill draw shot...(That shot the has a slight angle but you want to hold the CB from going way down table...so its like your hitting a "kill draw" )
Click to expand...

Yes, if you're hitting the ball softer, the pressure between the tip and ball during contact is decreased, and you can't hit as far out on the edge without the tip losing grip and miscuing. It's not about acceleration in that case, though; it's about speed.

BRKNRUN said:
Another specific type mis-cue is the draw with english....sometimes it seems like the tip deflects off the ball...even though struck exactly where intended.
Click to expand...

If you move your tip very low for a draw shot, and then move it sideways, you're moving even further away from the center of the ball. At some point you will cross the line between a possible shot and a guaranteed miscue. As to the tip deflecting away from the center of the ball, that happens on every miscue. It's the result of a miscue (or any off-center hit for that matter), not the cause.

BRKNRUN said:
I've wondered sometimes if the No Elbow drop can lead to a mis cue on a draw shot.... If you do not drop the Elbow, the tip must dip to the cloth...If the tip is starting to dip at impact, could the CB deflect the shaft into the cloth since it is already going in that direction......
Click to expand...

If your mechanics are correct, the tip doesn't drop until after it hits the CB. If your grip is too far forward or your bridge too long, then your forearm might be past vertical at the moment of contact, meaning your tip is dropping. This is a problem for multiple reasons, and should be corrected by changing your setup so your forearm is vertical at contact. This will help your consistency in putting the tip where you want on the CB, and decrease miscues accordingly.

BRKNRUN said:
The bigger question (debate) would be....Do you stay with the no elbow drop and move your grip hand back to delay the dip...(which also changes the timing of the delivery) or do you you maintain the same grip position and use elbow drop to maintain the tip tragectory?
Click to expand...

To rephrase what I just said, if you have to make this choice, you have a mechanics problem that needs correcting. Your stroke will benefit greatly if you fix it, and you should see a decrease in miscues.

Hope that makes things more clear.

-Andrew
 
So...what is the anatomy? ... What exactly is going
Anatomy or the physics of it?
One, tip slipping off the cue.
Two, bad stroke imo where the tip goes side to side or fans the cueball and/or too slow of a stroke or poke. I think.
 
BRKNRUN said:
Is that the case, or could it be that the tip is deflecting off of the CB into the cloth?
Click to expand...

This is easy to check. Set up a shot and mark the place where the CB is. Shoot a draw shot. If you miscue on it and cause the CB to jump look at where the chalk mark is. That should show what happened on that shot.

The others miscues are caused by other things.
 
One more observation, don't laugh.

There is one more thing that I have noticed about mis-cues, regardless of the stroke. I think that the relative humidity in the room can play a roll in mis-cues. The reason I say that is because there is one place where I play which always seems to be more humid than everywhere else. Every time I play there, my chalk slowly gets darker and darker, and it becomes more difficult to apply it to the tip. The tip seems to get smoother too. I've experienced and seen mis-cues in that place all the time, even knowing that I stroked it perfect. Any other thoughts on humidity and chalk?
 
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