Another 8-ball Layout: Where to go?

The way I see it, a lot depends on the opponent. If they're any good at all, it's going to be nearly impossible to put the CB where they can't make the 7 in the side or kick the far(left) side of the six ball and leave you pretty hosed if the 11 doesn't get close enough to the pocket. And if you leave the 11 where it blocks the kick on the 6, there's nothing stopping them from just pushing the 11 over to that rail, making for a tough shot on the 11.

So I kind like the bank on the 11 to the side, with a little effort toward getting the CB to the side rail to make any other shot kinda tough for them if the bank doesn't go.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Okay, I like this one A LOT more. Please disregard the lack of perfect placement in my diagram. The point is to show vicinity.

All you have to do is not leave the 7 a pocket and he's got a problem to solve. I'm not saying the table has turned yet but if you're going to intentionally foul, this would be the way to do it.

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I actually thought of this very same solution at first, but thinking twice it really doesn't buy you anything. Remember, your opponent will have BIH and can easily knock the 7 away from the 8, and you'll be left in the same predicament...but this time WITHOUT BIH.

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Rumplestiltskin said:
The way I see it, a lot depends on the opponent. If they're any good at all, it's going to be nearly impossible to put the CB where they can't make the 7 in the side or kick the far(left) side of the six ball and leave you pretty hosed if the 11 doesn't get close enough to the pocket. And if you leave the 11 where it blocks the kick on the 6, there's nothing stopping them from just pushing the 11 over to that rail, making for a tough shot on the 11.

So I kind like the bank on the 11 to the side, with a little effort toward getting the CB to the side rail to make any other shot kinda tough for them if the bank doesn't go.
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Well, I like your thinking. It's important to recognize that if you're up against a good player that even with BIH, you are at a disadvantage. No matter what you do, it should be daring, creative and/or aggressive.
 
jsp said:
I actually thought of this very same solution at first, but thinking twice it really doesn't buy you anything. Remember, your opponent will have BIH and can easily knock the 7 away from the 8, and you'll be left in the same predicament...but this time WITHOUT BIH.

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Are you kidding? Even if they can do that (and no guarantees), you have taken away one of their escapes from your safety. Now you can play the safe and not worry about the 7. I'm not saying you're out of the fire but you've definitely increased your chances a little, I think.

I mean, if you get the 7 ON the 8, he's going to start thinking stalemate.

Also, instead of pushing the 7 toward the 8, you could consider pushing the 7 between your two stripes and the 8.
 
While you always hear that you should play the table and not your opponent, I tend to weigh the difficulty in executing my options against the most probable consequences given my opponent's skill level. A mediocre safe, no matter how easily executed, is not that great of an option against a good/smart opponent.
 
Rumplestiltskin said:
While you always hear that you should play the table and not your opponent, I tend to weigh the difficulty in executing my options against the most probable consequences given my opponent's skill level. A mediocre safe, no matter how easily executed, is not that great of an option against a good/smart opponent.
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Well worded but it would help if we knew precisely which safety you were referring to (or if you were referring to all of them). I think also, it'd be more helpful to offer suggestions. Although your words of wisdom ring incredibly true, I'm sure this is a line of thinking most here are aware of.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Are you kidding? Even if they can do that (and no guarantees), you have taken away one of their escapes from your safety. Now you can play the safe and not worry about the 7. I'm not saying you're out of the fire but you've definitely increased your chances a little, I think.
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Exactly what safe are you talking about? If your opponent knocks the 7 away from the 8 and also sends the CB down table, you won't have that many options. Again, you won't have BIH anymore. I must be missing something.
 
jsp said:
Exactly what safe are you talking about? If your opponent knocks the 7 away from the 8 and also sends the CB down table, you won't have that many options. Again, you won't have BIH anymore. I must be missing something.
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Sorry, my point is you're playing the diagram and not the concept. You're imagining I'll leave the 7-ball precisely at that location leaving the opponent that return safety. I'm saying, that safety might not be available. If you leave the 7-ball right on the 8, he's going to be hesitant to load up on the cue-ball. If he drives the 7 into the rail and gets a double-kiss, he's going to end-up knocking the 8-ball right in. In all liklihood, he's going to drive the 7-ball out and leave the cue-ball right there.

I mean, I'm not saying this is the best option. If I'm at the table, I might look at that bank and go for the out. All I'm saying is, try to imagine the possibilities.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Well worded but it would help if we knew precisely which safety you were referring to (or if you were referring to all of them). I think also, it'd be more helpful to offer suggestions. Although your words of wisdom ring incredibly true, I'm sure this is a line of thinking most here are aware of.
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So far the only "safes" I've seen that I'd seriously consider against a stronger player involve moving the 7, basically giving up BIH and saying "show me what you got." But against most C or lower players, I'd opt for the 11 move and lock up on the backside of the 13. If you leave the 11 on or very close to the bottom rail, you make a kick on the 6 tough and you also make it hard for them to just push the 11 over to the rail behind the 6.

Again, I'd probably opt for the bank on the 11 against a good player, especially in a league or tourney match where a single game loss won't kill me.
 
You have ball in hand here and two things must be accomplished:
- Break up your cluster (this is a must since you have no other balls left to break them up with).
- Leave your oponent without a shot.

I would play it like JoeyA mapped out, hitting the 11 straight on leaving it for the side or possibly corner pocker.
This for me would be a the highest percentage shot to leave my oponent snookered on all balls,
and definitely breaks up the cluster.

Hitting the 11 from the other side is lower percentage to get safe,
and hit it slightly too har and the 11 might end up on the long rail behind the 6.
Playing a deliberate foul wouldn't be correct, you have ball-in-hand and a cluster.
That cluster will not be disturbed by your opponent, you have to break it up here and now,
it doesn't get better than bih.
Bumping out the 13 with the 11 would be worse because you'll have to play position on the 11 in a smaller space.
It's a tough spot, but with ball in hand I like my odds shooting it this way.

gr. Dave
 
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Double-Dave said:
You have ball in hand here and two things must be accomplished:
- Break up your cluster (this is a must since you have no other balls left to break them up with).
- Leave your oponent without a shot.

I would play it like JoeyA mapped out, hitting the 11 straight on leaving it for the side or possibly corner pocker.
This for me would be a the highest percentage shot to leave my oponent snookered on all balls,
and definitely breaks up the cluster.

Hitting the 11 from the other side is lower percentage to get safe,
and hit it slightly too har and the 11 might end up on the long rail behind the 6.
Playing a deliberate foul wouldn't be correct, you have ball-in-hand and a cluster.
That cluster will not be disturbed by your opponent, you have to break it up here and now,
it doesn't get better than bih.
Bumping out the 13 with the 11 would be worse because you'll have to play position on the 11 in a smaller space.
It's a tough spot, but with ball in hand I like my odds shooting it this way.

gr. Dave
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Against many opponents, this is going to work however, I think we're all toying with the next step here. See, the inevitable next shot against a good player is going to be a relatively soft kick toward the 1, 2 & 4 which may or may not leave a shot on the 11. The question is, is this an acceptable risk? It might be but it's enough of a risk to consider some other possibilities which is what we're doing here.
 
Double-Dave said:
You have ball in hand here and two things must be accomplished:
- Break up your cluster (this is a must since you have no other balls left to break them up with).
- Leave your oponent without a shot.

I would play it like JoeyA mapped out, hitting the 11 straight on leaving it for the side or possibly corner pocker.
This for me would be a the highest percentage shot to leave my oponent snookered on all balls,
and definitely breaks up the cluster.

Hitting the 11 from the other side is lower percentage to get safe,
and hit it slightly too har and the 11 might end up on the long rail behind the 6.
Playing a deliberate foul wouldn't be correct, you have ball-in-hand and a cluster.
That cluster will not be disturbed by your opponent, you have to break it up here and now,
it doesn't get better than bih.
Bumping out the 13 with the 11 would be worse because you'll have to play position on the 11 in a smaller space.
It's a tough spot, but with ball in hand I like my odds shooting it this way.

gr. Dave
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I think this is the only option, but it is tough. You cant just stun, you have to roll ahead perfectly. You have to hook him on the 7, and not give him the bottom rail to get to the 6 for contact. Think Id like to be solids here :D
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
The problem with this idea is that I believe the rebound angle would look more like this:

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I'm sorry but I did try to take that away when I created the diagram.
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That still works for me.

Though I am trying to put my opponent on ultimate lockdown, I will still assume they would be able to make a hit and if so, I will have pocketing options.
 
The only thing I don't like about shooting the 11 uptable is that you've got to hit it with decent speed to get it out to some place useful, which also makes locking the CB up tight on the 13 a little tougher since you're working right on top of the rail and everything is pretty tight.

If you look at the diagram, you've got a very small window where you can actually completely hide the 7 and the 6, unless you push the 11 toward the 6 so it blocks any shot on the 6.


Double-Dave said:
You have ball in hand here and two things must be accomplished:
- Break up your cluster (this is a must since you have no other balls left to break them up with).
- Leave your oponent without a shot.

I would play it like JoeyA mapped out, hitting the 11 straight on leaving it for the side or possibly corner pocker.
This for me would be a the highest percentage shot to leave my oponent snookered on all balls,
and definitely breaks up the cluster.

Hitting the 11 from the other side is lower percentage to get safe,
and hit it slightly too har and the 11 might end up on the long rail behind the 6.
Playing a deliberate foul wouldn't be correct, you have ball-in-hand and a cluster.
That cluster will not be disturbed by your opponent, you have to break it up here and now,
it doesn't get better than bih.
Bumping out the 13 with the 11 would be worse because you'll have to play position on the 11 in a smaller space.
It's a tough spot, but with ball in hand I like my odds shooting it this way.

gr. Dave
Click to expand...
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Okay, I like this one A LOT more. Please disregard the lack of perfect placement in my diagram. The point is to show vicinity.

All you have to do is not leave the 7 a pocket and he's got a problem to solve. I'm not saying the table has turned yet but if you're going to intentionally foul, this would be the way to do it.

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Click to expand...

Hey Jude, the problem with taking this intentional foul is that your opponent can then just take ball in hand and knock the 7 back up table.

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A shot I would at least look at

I would look at the possibility of the 11 rail first off the 7 in the side pocket or even straght off the 7...Of course this all depends on exactly how the balls lay in real life....sometimes it can be a very easy shot...and very easily overlooked shot.

In the end I would probably play chicken and just freeze to the back of the 13 and cross my fingers that my opponent does not kick something in.
 
If the ball doesn't go off the 7, I'd shoot the 11 off the rail first and then hit the 7 ball moving it out of the pocket and leaving the 11 there so he can't just hit the 6 one rail and I don't have a makeable ball. Freeze the cue ball behind the 13 and this way, after his shot I have a ball sitting in my pocket and can win the game.

Joey's diagram works for me too, it just depends on how far the balls are off the rails in this scenario and what I'm able to do other than that.
 
You shoot the eleven up table kill and the cue ball behind the thirteen frozen as possible, viola................you win........................
 
pletho said:
You shoot the eleven up table kill and the cue ball behind the thirteen frozen as possible, viola................you win........................
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Assuming they don't kick in the 7-ball (if you leave it there) or kick safe into the 1 ball and freeze up behind the 2-ball...

The second scenario is the most likely to happen against me...

That being said...If I decided to play the safe and freeze to the back of the 13...I would be attempting to get the 11 hanging around the corner pocket and blocking the 3 ball.
 
supergreenman said:
Hey Jude, the problem with taking this intentional foul is that your opponent can then just take ball in hand and knock the 7 back up table.

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Okay, to clarify the point I was making, this is what would be "ideal" in my shot.

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I could also probably get away with this

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The diagram I posted before should not be viewed as precise but if we're going to play that way, this is it.
 
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