Another Bad Draw-Miscue-Scoop Foul Call in a Major Pro Pool Tournament

dr_dave

dr_dave

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FYI, I just posted a new video that calls out another bad draw-shot-miscue foul judgement at the Philippines Open. The bad call was against Patric Gonzales in a match with Jayson Shaw, who later missed an easy semi-final match-winning shot against Arseni Sevastyanov for even more drama. Check it out:


Supporting Resources:
- rules resources: https://drdavepoolinfo.com/faq/rules/
- foul resources: https://drdavepoolinfo.com/faq/foul/
- scoop shots: https://drdavepoolinfo.com/faq/foul/scoop/
- more examples of bad calls: https://drdavepoolinfo.com/faq/foul/examples/

As always, I look forward to your feedback, comments, questions, complaints, and requests.

Enjoy!
 
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dr_dave said:
FYI, I just posted a new video that calls out another bad draw-shot-miscue foul judgement at the Philippines Open and shows that the Pool Gods sometimes dish out Karma. The bad call was against Patric Gonzales in a match against Jayson Shaw, and the karma applied to Jayson Shaw, who missed an easy semi-final match-winning shot against Arseni Sevastyanov. Check it out:


Supporting Resources:
- rules resources: https://drdavepoolinfo.com/faq/rules/
- foul resources: https://drdavepoolinfo.com/faq/foul/
- scoop shots: https://drdavepoolinfo.com/faq/foul/scoop/
- more examples of bad calls: https://drdavepoolinfo.com/faq/foul/examples/

As always, I look forward to your feedback, comments, questions, complaints, and requests.

Enjoy!
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Can you slow mo the miscue? I saw a social media post where they said that the cue ball actually jumped and hit the cue 5 inches up for a double hit. Said that the review was shown to Gonzales and he agreed. I am not sure about the authenticity of the claim.
 
VVP said:
Can you slow mo the miscue? I saw a social media post where they said that the cue ball actually jumped and hit the cue 5 inches up for a double hit. Said that the review was shown to Gonzales and he agreed. I am not sure about the authenticity of the claim.
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I just slowed down all the video clips I have. None of them show contact between the cue and CB after the initial scoop.
 
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VVP said:
Can you slow mo the miscue? I saw a social media post where they said that the cue ball actually jumped and hit the cue 5 inches up for a double hit. Said that the review was shown to Gonzales and he agreed. I am not sure about the authenticity of the claim.
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The WPA states that a scoop shot is not a miscue, nothing left to debate.
 
I watched this match early this am.... and this came up.
After a Forever seated wait for both players, they ruled in favor of Shaw.
Opponent got the $haw Call.
I've been in many matches before with all the greatest players and those types of two legged$ will never be gone.
Remember your dealing with a gambling mindset person or someone who was not raised properly, a parental miscue, his actions steering the ship was, not a Ralph Souquet moment.... many show us, the dollar has more importance than fair play or the sport/game and honesty.
The moment reeked of Ego.... and MONEY.
I had the same happen to me in Vegas late eighties, called my match, waited the alloted time no show, they didn't allow me a forfeit.
I had just beaten Davenport, but my next match with this man was more important than me and the promoters. I played later on.
Opponent....
Steve Mizerak.
 
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Island Drive said:
I watched this match early this am.... and this came up.
After a Forever seated wait for both players, they ruled in favor of Shaw.
Opponent got the $haw Call.
I've been in many matches before with all the greatest players and those types of two legged$ will never be gone.
Remember your dealing with a gambling mindset person or someone who was not raised properly, a parental miscue, his actions steering the ship was, not a Ralph Souquet moment.... many show us, the dollar has more importance than fair play or the sport/game and honesty.
The moment reeked of Ego.... and MONEY.
I had the same happen to me in Vegas late eighties, called my match, waited the alloted time no show, they didn't allow me a forfeit.
I had just beaten Davenport, but my next match with this man was more important than me and the promoters. I played later on.
Opponent....
Steve Mizerak.
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totally agree
 
skor said:
WNT rules are not bound to WPA rules...
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Even the WNT follows the WPA "official rules of pool" except where there are "special rules" that override. The only WNT "special rule" I am aware of is the "breaking from the box with a forceful break" rule. I have never seen anything else published other than what is here:
 
Karma doesn’t exist and if it did why didn’t happen in the match he played another 10 games lol saying something as silly as that and then also trying to be the guy who gives us all facts makes you look like a clown. I can hear his shaft hit the ball. Lol it’s a foul and him missing the 9 ball 28 racks later in a completely different match had nothing to do with the call. Lol
 
dr_dave said:
Even the WNT follows the WPA "official rules of pool" except where there are "special rules" that override. The only WNT "special rule" I am aware of is the "breaking from the box with a forceful break" rule. I have never seen anything else published other than what is here:
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Are you forgetting that until this year’s WPA rules changes, the 9ball on the spot was a WNT thing. WPA is following WNT…. Soon miscue will be a foul (which used to be years ago in WPA as well)
 
trob said:
Karma doesn’t exist and if it did why didn’t happen in the match he played another 10 games lol saying something as silly as that and then also trying to be the guy who gives us all facts makes you look like a clown.
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I thought it was obvious I was joking about "Pool God Karma." That doesn't exist (unless you think it does, in which case it exists in your mind).

trob said:
I can hear his shaft hit the ball. Lol it’s a foul and him missing the 9 ball 28 racks later in a completely different match had nothing to do with the call. Lol
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Sound is a very unreliable indicator of a foul. Check out the examples at the 4:32 point in this video:


Also, with scoop shots, sometimes there is only a single hit, with the cue tip contacting the CB and table at about the same time. These scoop shots are almost impossible to distinguish from scoop shots that do involve secondary contact, unless super-slow-motion video from the side is available. Examples can be found here:


This is why the rules are written to not penalize unintentional draw-shot-miscue scoops.
 
skor said:
Soon miscue will be a foul (which used to be years ago in WPA as well)
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I don't remember this ever being the case, but I think a strong argument can certainly be made for it since pretty much every miscue involves sliding and secondary contact with the tip, ferrule, or shaft. Lots of examples can be found here:


However, then people will argue which shots are miscues or not. Sometimes partial miscues occur, which sometimes sound and look only a little like blatant miscues.
 
Wait a minute. Unintentional miscues have never been called as fouls in pro pool UNTIL about 3-4 years ago. All the Euro refs at that point started calling them fouls, to the complete shock of both the pros and the fans. The comment at the time was "if clear secondary contact with the shaft/ferrule was visible".

Now you are saying the rules have been rewritten to explicitly state it's not a foul? Are you sure?
 
it probably did hit more than once but that doesn't matter imo, as it wasn't intentional. two things can be true at the same time: it can technically be a foul AND still be legal because in the spirit of the game unintentional miscues are tolerated.

if there will ever, against all probability, be a pro that scoops to jump over an obstructing ball, that's a different story.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Wait a minute. Unintentional miscues have never been called as fouls in pro pool UNTIL about 3-4 years ago. All the Euro refs at that point started calling them fouls, to the complete shock of both the pros and the fans. The comment at the time was "if clear secondary contact with the shaft/ferrule was visible".

Now you are saying the rules have been rewritten to explicitly state it's not a foul? Are you sure?
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The rules on this topic were not changed, just clarified and improved. The intent of the rules was never to penalize unintentional miscues or scoops as fouls unless the secondary contact was visually obvious (for example with a follow shot miscue, where the CB gets trapped under the cue after the hit). Here's the full video covering the recent improvements to the rules:

 
So the European refs on their own 3-5 years ago got together and decided to call draw shot miscues as fouls? The change happened almost overnight.

Just playing devils advocate, why would you want the miscue NOT to be a foul, but in another thread/video, I believe you wanted the pique to be a foul. (or maybe you had shown that it was likely to have secondary contact)

For the record, I think both should not be fouls.
 
iusedtoberich said:
So the European refs on their own 3-5 years ago got together and decided to call draw shot miscues as fouls? The change happened almost overnight.
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That's how it seemed to me also. That's why the WPA Rules Committee attempted to further clarify these rules. Apparently, even further clarification is required.


iusedtoberich said:
Just playing devils advocate, why would you want the miscue NOT to be a foul, but in another thread/video, I believe you wanted the pique to be a foul. (or maybe you had shown that it was likely to have secondary contact)
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I don't think I ever said pique or fouette shots should be called fouls unless the evidence for a foul is clear (based on errant motion of the CB).


iusedtoberich said:
For the record, I think both should not be fouls.
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Agreed. No shot should be a foul unless evidence for a foul is clear. An unintentional miscue or scoop shot is not a foul (according to the intent of the current rules).
 
dr_dave said:
I don't remember this ever being the case, but I think a strong argument can certainly be made for it since pretty much every miscue involves sliding and secondary contact with the tip, ferrule, or shaft. Lots of examples can be found here:


However, then people will argue which shots are miscues or not. Sometimes partial miscues occur, which sometimes sound and look only a little like blatant miscues.
Click to expand...
The rules used to state that in some cases it may be ruled as a foul but it was vague what are those situation, they gave one example - if the ferrule touches the ball.

From the 1999 BCA official rule book

IMG_6434.jpeg

It is a bit confusing as the specific rule starts with talking a jump in an effort to clear another ball but continuous to talk about "such accidental jumps" that could be applied to any miscue that may rsault in a jumped CB witch was the case with the shot of Gonzales.
So by 1999 WPA rules, it is a foul.
But by 2025 WPA it's not a foul, see rule 2.11:
If an unintentional miscue causes the cue-ball to leave the playing surface, including partially or fully jumping over a ball, it is treated like a legal jump shot
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So I guess the WNT are still playing by the 1999 WPA rule book or just by whatever works for them, 9 ball on the spot, break box, purple 5, the rest just line up with them....
 
trob said:
Karma doesn’t exist and if it did why didn’t happen in the match he played another 10 games lol saying something as silly as that and then also trying to be the guy who gives us all facts makes you look like a clown. I can hear his shaft hit the ball. Lol it’s a foul and him missing the 9 ball 28 racks later in a completely different match had nothing to do with the call. Lol
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Karma??.... I'd like to know who Chose the ref, Better yet what are the refs qualifications? These are valid questions a billiard judge would ask.
Life. :)
 
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