Another cue opinion Joss West..

I don't want to get off topic or get into a big thing over this so I'm just going to simply say that "IMO" , most of this is actually inaccurate. And for the record you can also inlay sharp points with either method.

Just wanted to throw that put there.

Carry one. :)


Brandon,

You're half right. The part about the tip of the point taking the shape of the cutter is correct, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's CNC'd. It means the pocket was cut with a round endmill but it could also be done with a panto-mill or pantograph. They use the same sort of cutters. With the panto-mill you usually have to get the templates or patterns made on a cnc that are traced with the stylus of the panto-mill to give you the inlay shape. With CNC, a computer guides the cutters path. You can usually get a smaller radius on the points using a cnc because it can move the smaller cutters more accurately and smoothly than a human can using the panto-mill thus breaking less of the expensive little micrograin carbide endmills. The cue in question was done with CNC with rather large cutters so the machine could travel faster and cut deeper in one pass, saving time and breaking less endmills. Joss West uses much smaller endmills to get sharper points, but it takes more time and will cost more in tooling to do. Hope this helps.
 
I don't want to get off topic or get into a big thing over this so I'm just going to simply say that "IMO" , most of this is actually inaccurate. And for the record you can also inlay sharp points with either method.

Just wanted to throw that put there.

Carry one. :)

And what do you base your opinion on and what is inaccurate about my statement?

And for the record no one said you could not inlay sharp points with either method, it's just done differently!

Carry two. lol
 
if the buttcap is delrin than 84, 85
later joss have an cream colored buttcap
earlier have different points
very nice cue
 
And what do you base your opinion on and what is inaccurate about my statement?

And for the record no one said you could not inlay sharp points with either method, it's just done differently!

Carry two. lol



Just my personal experience. I make parts and pieces for cue builders using both CNC and Pantograph. The pantograph can easily equal a CNC for precision , in fact in some extremely fine work , I prefer it as I have more control over the cutting in real time. Often times, because of that , I can use smaller bit in it than I feel comfortable with in a CNC. Quality and precision is in no way sacrificed with a pantograph IMO.

FWIW , I also make jewelry molds and forms which require far more precision than pretty much anything you'll see on a pool cue , altho I'm working in different mediums there , many principles still apply.

Other than that , only real reason for radius corners (large or otherwise) , should you deceide to leave them , is cause you deceided to leave them either large or round. :) I guess my point was whether points are sharp or round tho , doesn't definitively tell you what machine was used.

That's all , no biggie.

Carry on

:)
 
Just my personal experience. I make parts and pieces for cue builders using both CNC and Pantograph. The pantograph can easily equal a CNC for precision , in fact in some extremely fine work , I prefer it as I have more control over the cutting in real time. Often times, because of that , I can use smaller bit in it than I feel comfortable with in a CNC. Quality and precision is in no way sacrificed with a pantograph IMO.

FWIW , I also make jewelry molds and forms which require far more precision than pretty much anything you'll see on a pool cue , altho I'm working in different mediums there , many principles still apply.

Other than that , only real reason for radius corners (large or otherwise) , should you deceide to leave them , is cause you deceided to leave them either large or round. :) I guess my point was whether points are sharp or round tho , doesn't definitively tell you what machine was used.

That's all , no biggie.

Carry on

:)
Well then it seems that the only thing we disagree on is that I feel you'll break less of the 1/64" (.0156) cutters using a CNC than doing it with a manual machine. I feel you can set the feedrate slow enough and move the cutter more smoothly with CNC, thus breaking less of those little buggers, than at least I've been able to do with a pantograph. That was what I was really referring to by the precision. As far as the shape, if you have a good panto & stylus and good patterns that fit the stylus well I can see that you could get results equal to a good cnc. As this link shows the pantograph is capable of doing extremely fine engraving. http://www.air-logic.com/oldsite/pinstory.html but it was very labor intensive and engraving is just slightly different than inlay work.

I agree it's no biggie, just wanted to clarify my position and I do appreciate your input!

Carry on!
 
Hey I have a good idea. Why not ask Stroud.

I guess you could bother Billy with this, if you can get a hold of him, but there has already been at least a dozen very informed opinions already that this is a Joss East cue, not one of Bill Stroud's Joss West cues and no one who contradicted that. I think that issue has been pretty much settled!
 
.

I agree it's no biggie, just wanted to clarify my position and I do appreciate your input!

Carry on!


Yup,me too. And always looking to learn as cues are not my primary area of expertise. I've just been fortunate to work with some really skilled builders.

Main thing that bothers me is when quality assumptions get associated with a certain kind of tool , cause the man behind it is apparently just a spectator. :)
 
Yup,me too. And always looking to learn as cues are not my primary area of expertise. I've just been fortunate to work with some really skilled builders.

Main thing that bothers me is when quality assumptions get associated with a certain kind of tool , cause the man behind it is apparently just a spectator. :)


You do know that Sherm is a cue builder that has been making cues for damn near 40 years, right? I don't care what machines you make, the cue builders themselves are going to know more about their use in the real world.
MULLY
I don't know sh!t about either one
 
There isnt a Joss East, there is Joss and Josswest.

Ken

I thought I settled this argument 2 years ago.....

I've seen the arguments on here in other threads and it stops here. Both sides are wrong. It's was never formally called Joss East *BUT* the word East has been formally used in advertising for them. Both sides of the argument need to fall into the middle. THis is a still taken from my TV from an accu-stats video. Legends of One Pocket, Gary Spaeth vs Cecil Tugwell.

josseastqp7.jpg

There you go. Saying that there is no Joss East is technically inaccurate.
MULLY
 
I thought I settled this argument 2 years ago.....



There you go. Saying that there is no Joss East is technically inaccurate.
MULLY

Mully,
Beings that you're an old friend of Gary and I, I'm not surprised that you bought this video. It's a great one isn't it? One of my all time favorite Accu-Stats videos and I highly recommend it to anyone who likes one-pocket and even Banks. Gary definitely used his banking prowess to take this match down. As a side note, Cecil thought Gary beating him was a fluke. He got a stake horse and came to Cincinnati right after this tourney to play Gary again. About $1800 later I think he realized it wasn't a fluke! Trying to play Gary at Beechmont was like pissing into the wind! Even Bugs didn't like his end of that on a couple of occasions! Hope all's well with you buddy! Maybe I'll take a trip to Japan someday soon and let you show me around. It's on my "bucket list".
 
You do know that Sherm is a cue builder that has been making cues for damn near 40 years, right? I don't care what machines you make, the cue builders themselves are going to know more about their use in the real world.
MULLY
I don't know sh!t about either one

Don't know anything about him , I'm sure he's a great talent , I never posted indication contrary to that.

;)

Jay.

// Only 30 years in the real world but I'm working on it , us aerospace guys are a little slow on the uptake , this is florida don't forget //
 
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Don't know anything about him , I'm sure he's a great talent , I never posted indication contrary to that.

;)

Jay.

// Only 30 years in the real world but I'm working on it , us aerospace guys are a little slow on the uptake , this is florida don't forget //

No problem Jay, I didn't take it like you were knocking me, just wanted to express my opinions and understand your point. I made my first cue (a sneaky pete) in the Gas Station we owned in Miami. What part of FLA are you from?
 
No problem Jay, I didn't take it like you were knocking me, just wanted to express my opinions and understand your point. I made my first cue (a sneaky pete) in the Gas Station we owned in Miami. What part of FLA are you from?

I'm from New York originally , Long Island. Moved down here (Melborne) around '90-ish when Grumman started shutting it down up there. Now in I'm Central Florida , just outside of Orlando. Amazed at how many Cue Builders ther are down here. :)
 
I'm from New York originally , Long Island. Moved down here (Melborne) around '90-ish when Grumman started shutting it down up there. Now in I'm Central Florida , just outside of Orlando. Amazed at how many Cue Builders ther are down here. :)


Do you know the Famous Eddie Wheat, I have some of his Wheat Bucks that you may be able to use, I doubt that I will ever use them!!!:D

WheatBucks.jpg
 
Do you know the Famous Eddie Wheat, I have some of his Wheat Bucks that you may be able to use, I doubt that I will ever use them!!!:D

Believe it or not , I never heard of him before AZ nor have I ever ran into one of his cues.

I kinda thought maybe he was just an urban myth.

:p
 
Don't know anything about him , I'm sure he's a great talent , I never posted indication contrary to that.

;)

Jay.

// Only 30 years in the real world but I'm working on it , us aerospace guys are a little slow on the uptake , this is florida don't forget //

Sorry, man, I thought that last comment in your post was a jab at Sherm. We go way back so I got a little offended and went a touch internet tough guy. My bad.
MULLY
 
Mully,
Beings that you're an old friend of Gary and I, I'm not surprised that you bought this video. It's a great one isn't it? One of my all time favorite Accu-Stats videos and I highly recommend it to anyone who likes one-pocket and even Banks. Gary definitely used his banking prowess to take this match down. As a side note, Cecil thought Gary beating him was a fluke. He got a stake horse and came to Cincinnati right after this tourney to play Gary again. About $1800 later I think he realized it wasn't a fluke! Trying to play Gary at Beechmont was like pissing into the wind! Even Bugs didn't like his end of that on a couple of occasions! Hope all's well with you buddy! Maybe I'll take a trip to Japan someday soon and let you show me around. It's on my "bucket list".

Yeah, playing Gary at Beechmont wouldn't have been something too many people would be able to handle. I don't have the story telling abilities of good ole Jay Helfert but I used to sit and watch Gary shooting table length banks on a 12 foot snooker table with pockets tight enough that wind wouldn't blow through them. He was just incredible.
MULLY
 
Sorry, man, I thought that last comment in your post was a jab at Sherm. We go way back so I got a little offended and went a touch internet tough guy. My bad.
MULLY

It's cool, I feel the same way when someone talks bad about my Deckel.

:)

(Sherm will tell you what that is. ;) )
 
Shamadam, I know that you asked not to be quoted, but it is the best segue to show your quote. So, for that; I apologize.

Bill Stroud's first run of "rounded" points actually began in 1980 and you can spot cues that were started in 1979 and finished in 1980 because they will have been done with pantograph-pocket points (rounded) and still have the sideways "W" that marks the cues were made in Colorado Springs (1972-1980). Also true the "inner" veneers will be mitered and thus; sharp.
Bill stroud was likely the 1st cuemaker to use this method. I believe that Dave Kikel used the exact same method and I thought still did, but I have seen a few for sale ads here wherein the cues appear to be short splice. Like others have already mentioned, Ernie Guiterrez does something like this, too.


So, not to hijack this thread, but simply to add to it. The cue in question is a Dan Janes and Co. Joss East and similar to later Schon cues, the veneers are simply re-cut pocket inlays.
I don't think this affects the playability in any real noticable manner.
I don't love the rounded point either, but some people love that sort of thing.

Look at my cue in the gallery. Mr. Kikel does use this technique.

Ken
 
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