Another look at APA

Ever won any money?

LeagueShirts said:
I've been playing weekly 8 ball for nearly 5yrs in our local APA. We play on-site at our bar, the teams count varies from 4 to 9 teams season-to-season. Anyone who's played over a year all know each other. There is really good competition and little observed sandbagging.

The SLs make sense for anyone there over a season. The first season will bounce your level around based on your short trend. 2's can hardly hit a straight shot, 7's will run out any open table and most which present a reasonable break out opportunity. That makes sense to me.

Do some of you travel to other bars? We don't have arguments and fights like I've read because we all know each other. I met my wife on league night and had essentially an apa member reception.

With 200,000+ members, I don't think any local observer can generalize the whole organization. That should be common sense.
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50 percent of marriages end in divorce. Good luck with that.
Have you ever won any money in the APA?
Sounds like you have played over a year, should have been to Vegas.
Does your league operator payout to the team that wins the division.
Ours does not.
 
markpatrick said:
Have you ever won any money in the APA?
Sounds like you have played over a year, should have been to Vegas.
Does your league operator payout to the team that wins the division.
Ours does not.
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If you are in a league for money then you need to be playing in UPA leagues or M8 or one of the cash leagues.

The chances of going to Vegas are slim to none. The APA claims to have over 260,000 players with a little over 3,000 qualifying for nationals last year. That's only %1.15 of APA players who will ever see a trip to Vegas. So if that is why you are in it then you may want to re-think your options?

Again APA is not a cash league, they are not designed to pay out at the end of a session. The only time I have ever gotten paid the room owner paid us and not the League Operator.

Again players cant seem to get past what leagues are suposed to be..Fun. To hung up on the icing and not the cake.
 
Sharkey said:
If you are in a league for money then you need to be playing in UPA leagues or M8 or one of the cash leagues.

The chances of going to Vegas are slim to none. The APA claims to have over 260,000 players with a little over 3,000 qualifying for nationals last year. That's only %1.15 of APA players who will ever see a trip to Vegas. So if that is why you are in it then you may want to re-think your options?

Again APA is not a cash league, they are not designed to pay out at the end of a session. The only time I have ever gotten paid the room owner paid us and not the League Operator.

Again players cant seem to get past what leagues are suposed to be..Fun. To hung up on the icing and not the cake.
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I think your numbers are a tad off, I know there was over 700 8 ball teams last year plus 300 or so 9 ball teams not to mention the ladies team, with the 8 and 9 ball there is over 8,000 people right there. Plus I think the 260K membership number is actually 260k members ever, not current. (at least that's what my LO told me) :thumbup:

I was lucky enough to make it to APA nationals and it was a great time!
 
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I have played a couple of years in APA. West coast and Midwest APA. I captained a team to vegas with skill level 2 and 3 players that never could dream of a room with more than six tables!!! It was exciting !! It will probably never happen again for them. One gal was her first session or two ever playing pool . APA gets people all over the country to enjoy and start playing pool. mission accomplished. The word of mouth advertising from people like her is what keeps the vegas dream alive. A free trip in your first try on a pool team. how great is that!! Ive also played where sandbaggers were prevelent and encouraged by my captain. It doesn't work for me, so I kept getting raised just like everyone else that wins too much. Its even worse in areas where the league is small and the competition isnt as strong, the strong players get raised and the people that get beat every week stay the same. The idea of handicapping is to make it possible for either person to win IF THEY PLAY WELL. I always had chances to win only sometimes I FAILED to PLAY WELL ENOUGH TO WIN.

SANDBAGGERS WANT TO BE ABLE TO WIN EVEN WHEN THEY DONT PLAY WELL.Sandbaggers want to be able to win even when they dont play well!!!!They lay down all session to get an advantage in the playoffs and often times as I witnessed they CAN NOT TURN IT ON LATER. Unknowingly to themselves they teach themselves all session how to be a loser. I approached every match like it was the vegas tournament and tried to teach my players to shove it up their asses before they shoved it up ours. TO WIN . To fight for every ball and play good defense. This tought THEM how to win under pressure, yeah its made up all in our heads but, when we did get to the tournament we were comfortable trying to win. I think its hard for guys that have been losing all session sandbagging, when the pressure is on and everyones watching, to win. they are not winners,they're losers and even have practiced it,alot. They already know the excuses they'll use after the match, they've been practicing those all year also.Anyway just my view I enjoyed my APA experience, i met some great friends and foes, and even enjoyed being a team captain, even though it was alot more work, and more $$$ if your guys stiff ya occassionally. Try to overlook alot of the weekly bs, I know its difficult. See if you can get an inhouse league if theres a room where you like to play. APA offers some great singles stuff also. I know this rambling post was a little off topic, I just wanted to share that I had a great experience in the APA, AFTER I CHANGED MY EXPECTATIONS OF THE LEAGUE, AND MY ATTITUDE TOWARDS THE CHEATERS. They can make you stronger if you use them to your advantage. Mentally, i mean. Otherwise MMA is a good option.LOL

PS, CHEATERS, AKA SANDBAGGERS DO MAKE IT TO VEGAS... My team got put out by a team of cheaters and a couple of months later I got a letter from the APA telling us what had happened and the additional $500.00 that losing that match cost us. It small condolence when you could have made a run deeper in the tournament, but they did invite us back for next years tournament, WITHOUT HAVING TO QUALIFY!!! I hope this helps alittle.
 
Sharkey said:
If you are in a league for money then you need to be playing in UPA leagues or M8 or one of the cash leagues.

The chances of going to Vegas are slim to none. The APA claims to have over 260,000 players with a little over 3,000 qualifying for nationals last year. That's only %1.15 of APA players who will ever see a trip to Vegas. So if that is why you are in it then you may want to re-think your options?

Again APA is not a cash league, they are not designed to pay out at the end of a session. The only time I have ever gotten paid the room owner paid us and not the League Operator.

Again players cant seem to get past what leagues are suposed to be..Fun. To hung up on the icing and not the cake.
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Lets do the math shall we.

Over 700 8-ball teams, almost 500 9-ball teams,50 ladies teams,256 8-ball doublesteams, 128 9-ball doubles teams, 196 masters teams (all this info was taken from the APA website)
That amounts to approx 10,000 team players and 1552 doubkles and masters players.

That amounts to approx 5% of players that make it to Vegas.

assuming you pay $7 per week and play 35 weeks a year you pay out 245 per year. The fact that you can win a Vegas trip and entry into the National Championship worth approx $4000 per team means that you are paying 6.1 % of the cost. Not bad odds if you ask me.

My area sends approx 1 out of every 7 players or about 14% plus pays cash as well. We send teams to Vegas in every format.

All i will say is that if you don;t like it don't play, but please stop throwing around BLATENT LIES AND FALSIFIED INFORMATION.

If you want to argue with facts, then know the facts.
 
The scores are based on the best 10 of your last 20 scores (wins). Only wins count. Say you have 10 scores, the best 5 are used. (innings-safeties)/games won. Gives you an average inning count. Each SL level has a range. If you go over your your average, the system still gives you a score based on your winning percentage. Once a 2 reaches a winning percentage they will be moved to a 3.

8 ball
Innings SL
0-2 7
2.1-3 6
3.1-4 5
4.1-5 4
5.1-7 3
7.1-10 2

9 ball
Innings SL
0-1.5 7
1.51-2.5 6
2.51-3.5 5
3.51-4.5 4
4.51-5.5 3
5.51+ 2

The 9 ball numbers are from when 7 was the highest, since you can get to 9, i would assume that being a 9 would be somewhere around .5 innings. and an 8 being from .51 to 1.5.

I have my own 8 ball team, and play on a friends 9 ball team. As of lately i've being playing alot of higher ranked players that ballslap. I get stuck with one ball on the table. The other person plays poor position and "safes" themselves. Then they smash the cue ball into the pile and get a ball to pocket and then run out "GO APA!". Then i get to play someone that actually can "play" and I win because i am rated lower, and skill prevails and you get to hear that you should be rated higher. But i loose to ball slappers. I have a bad habit of only playing as good as my competition, dunno why. So between the ball slappers and the rash of ill playing bar tables, i'm ready to quit apa, just isnt fun anymore.
 
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fatsix said:
............Only wins count. ......... (innings-safeties)/games won. Gives you an average inning count. ....


9 ball
Innings SL
0-1.5 7
1.51-2.5 6
2.51-3.5 5
3.51-4.5 4
4.51-5.5 3
5.51+ 2

The 9 ball numbers are from when 7 was the highest, since you can get to 9, i would assume that being a 9 would be somewhere around .5 innings. and an 8 being from .51 to 1.5.
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How certain are you about how those 9-ball ranges work? This makes sense for 8-ball but since 9-ball is scored like straight-pool there is not really a big deal about when the rack is complete or not... but instead how many points you've racked up, right?

My complete guess... is.... that somehow they take the total innings in a complete match and average how many points you scored over those innings.

For example a SL6 needs 46 points. If (s)he gets those 46 points in 8 total match innings, (s)he is playing better than if (s)he gets the 46 points in 22 total innings per match... right? ... So, with my hypothetical exmaple the 46pts/8-innings is an average of 5.75 points per inning where as the 46pts/22-innings is an average of 2.1 points per inning. I would GUESS that this is how they calculate how well or badly you're playing in 9-ball.

Am I wrong?
 
The information i have, says average innings per game. So I'm not positive on how the scoring for your level works in 9 ball. But i think you are correct. 9 ball = Points/innings. 8 ball = innings/ games won.

Sometimes i wish 8 ball kept track of balls like 9 ball does. Then you could see who is running balls then laying down. Because there is no way to tell how many balls the other person had left. But since i keep score alot, i dont need anymore work.
 
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fatsix said:
The scores are based on the best 10 of your last 20 scores (wins). Only wins count. Say you have 10 scores, the best 5 are used. (innings-safeties)/games won. Gives you an average inning count. Each SL level has a range. If you go over your your average, the system still gives you a score based on your winning percentage. Once a 2 reaches a winning percentage they will be moved to a 3.

8 ball
Innings SL
0-2 7
2.1-3 6
3.1-4 5
4.1-5 4
5.1-7 3
7.1-10 2

9 ball
Innings SL
0-1.5 7
1.51-2.5 6
2.51-3.5 5
3.51-4.5 4
4.51-5.5 3
5.51+ 2

The 9 ball numbers are from when 7 was the highest, since you can get to 9, i would assume that being a 9 would be somewhere around .5 innings. and an 8 being from .51 to 1.5.

I have my own 8 ball team, and play on a friends 9 ball team. As of lately i've being playing alot of higher ranked players that ballslap. I get stuck with one ball on the table. The other person plays poor position and "safes" themselves. Then they smash the cue ball into the pile and get a ball to pocket and then run out "GO APA!". Then i get to play someone that actually can "play" and I win because i am rated lower, and skill prevails and you get to hear that you should be rated higher. But i loose to ball slappers. I have a bad habit of only playing as good as my competition, dunno why. So between the ball slappers and the rash of ill playing bar tables, i'm ready to quit apa, just isnt fun anymore.
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I am curious as to if this is your guess as to how it works or is this a fact
I would be suprised if they only count wins as I have seen players lose a very close well played match and actually go up in handicap.

Can you please respond wjether this is speculation or fact and if it is a fact, how do you know if you an not a L.O. or a former L.O.

Just curious.
 
match wins are different than games, you can win games and still loose the match.
 
I think alot of people completely miss the point on "sandbagging" when it comes to the APA. It's not about hiding your skill as much as keeping your team/friends/comradary that you spent time building. Which ironically, is what the APA markets itself on. "make friends", "have fun", etc... Where's the fine print?? "until you get better"

"Sandbagging" (which by the way, is not happening NEARLY as much as some think. it's just more comfortable to believe that) is more a result of the "23" rule than anything else.
 
I see more problems with people getting "lucky" because you dont have to call pockets. You can only really sandbag until you get to the cities where you are watched more closely.
 
jdxprs said:
most people who DONT like the apa, feel the way they do because they enjoyed playing in apa UNTIL their skill levels were raised high enough to break up the team they enjoyed being a part of. this is done to increase apa revenues, and it sucks.
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Certainly not all of it but good enough.
 
Beware_of_Dawg said:
I think alot of people completely miss the point on "sandbagging" when it comes to the APA. It's not about hiding your skill as much as keeping your team/friends/comradary that you spent time building. Which ironically, is what the APA markets itself on. "make friends", "have fun", etc... Where's the fine print?? "until you get better"

"Sandbagging" (which by the way, is not happening NEARLY as much as some think. it's just more comfortable to believe that) is more a result of the "23" rule than anything else.
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I think is pretty accurate. I might argue the "or get better" part of it, but we've flogged that deceased equine enough lately.

I also think that if the "23" rule was "24", or "25", or "30" there would be people who would complain, and people who would try and beat (cheat) the system.
 
justadub said:
"or get better" part of it

I also think that if the "23" rule was "24", or "25", or "30".
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Well, if all guys come in ranked as "SL4's"- 5 guys start a team, only 3 of the 5 of them are aloud to get 1 SL higher, (god forbid these guys actually fall in love with the game and get a couple SL's higher)... then they have 2 choices, quit or bring in more players/new cash cows to feed the machine or... ur done. can't play no more.
 
APA is a business - they are looking to make money and also are able to pay back some (so what if it's a little) back to the players. The league is targeted toward beginners and not toward people trying to make a living off pool. If you don't like it and enjoy playing pool in a casual setting, then quit and go play $100 games against other people or join one of the alternatives that are targeted toward the better players.
 
upprc04 said:
APA is a business - The league is targeted toward beginners and not toward people trying to make a living off pool. If you don't like it and enjoy playing pool in a casual setting, then quit and go play $100 games against other people or join one of the alternatives that are targeted toward the better players.
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The money I spend means nothing, the money I make at pool league, means nothing. I don't "gamble" at pool and have no interest in playing any sort of professional pool or even getting to the point that the income generated at pool could even qualify as "suplementary".... I love the game, that's why I play. The people I surround myself with, love the game. That's why they play.

But I supose this is just another circular agruement that has been groundhog dayed over and over and over... It is what it is, I have accepted that and Im comforatble with it. That doesn't mean I don't get frustrated about it. Afterall, I love this game.
 
Is there nobody at all who can consider that possibly, just possibly, the APA simply didn't want stacked teams when they made the 23 rule? And that was their main goal?

Before they got rich at it and made it a big moneymaking business, the two people who came up with the formula wanted a league that is amateur friendly, and would mix better players with weaker ones... rather than letting the 5 best guys in the area crush everyone else year after year.

This doesn't have to be some diabolical scheme to ramp up profits. The cap is very likely the single biggest reason they are the most popular league. With a bullet. They didn't get 250,000 members because 125,000 teams maxed out their cap and the guy who got forced out recruited four new people who otherwise wouldn't have signed up. That's ridiculous.

They got members on board because they convinced amateurs they were welcome and that every team would have some low-level players for them to match up with. You aren't signing up those four new people unless you sell them on that concept.

If you "fix" that cap, you also "fix" having 250,000 league members playing every week.
 
CreeDo said:
Is there nobody at all who can consider that possibly, just possibly, the APA simply didn't want stacked teams when they made the 23 rule? And that was their main goal?

Before they got rich at it and made it a big moneymaking business, the two people who came up with the formula wanted a league that is amateur friendly, and would mix better players with weaker ones... rather than letting the 5 best guys in the area crush everyone else year after year.

This doesn't have to be some diabolical scheme to ramp up profits. The cap is very likely the single biggest reason they are the most popular league. With a bullet. They didn't get 250,000 members because 125,000 teams maxed out their cap and the guy who got forced out recruited four new people who otherwise wouldn't have signed up. That's ridiculous.

They got members on board because they convinced amateurs they were welcome and that every team would have some low-level players for them to match up with. You aren't signing up those four new people unless you sell them on that concept.

If you "fix" that cap, you also "fix" having 250,000 league members playing every week.
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Fantastic post.
 
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