Answers to Common QUESTIONS About Using SIDESPIN ... When, Why, and How to Use It

[Not Dead Ted]

What do you guys think about "spinning a ball in or not," as covered in the section starting at 14:26?

Would you use outside spin on the shootout shot like in some of the pro examples shown?

Pros can shoot this shot with fast roll and make it consistently without much compensation. As a hacker, shooting it hard decreases my chances of hitting the aim point. Shooting it medium or soft may increase accuracy, but makes the shot much harder due to CIT (see TP A14 plot of CIT v. roll (various speeds)).
So, I would probably try to set it up as a 30 degree cut, aim at OB edge, bridge at pivot point, 6 mm of outside gearing BHE, medium speed. Then hope I get lucky.

 

[dr_dave]

I have an interesting idea for a new experiment or video (if you don't have one about it already) for Dr. Dave:

How do different spins help in reducing table roll-off for soft speed shots?

For example, a pocket-speed shot with no spin vs. max sidespin seems to roll off less with max sidespin. But is this just placebo or is there science behind it?

I'm going with placebo. Maybe you are using more speed or backspin with the sidespin shots without knowing it.

And the main question I'd have is, do different axis of spin have a different effect for this, e.g. using max backspin vs. using max sidespin? The "drag shot" (max backspin) is often used in such situations, but that seems to be more about the fact that the CB slows down more than with other spins, effectively reducing table roll by having more speed along the path.

The backspin drag shot definitely has science behind it, as you explain (more speed = less roll off).

 

[David in FL]

I tend to over use spin. I almost always add a touch of outside even on very straight forward cut shots. It might be the result of growing up playing on dirty tables, but whatever the reason, it's so ingrained that it's almost uncomfortable for me not to.

Thanks for confirming what I already knew. That I'm a dumbass.

 

[dr_dave]

Thanks for confirming what I already knew. That I'm a dumbass.

You're welcome. I aim to swerve.

 

[Tennesseejoe]

What do you guys think about "spinning a ball in or not," as covered in the section starting at 14:26?

Would you use outside spin on the shootout shot like in some of the pro examples shown?

I am a believer now. I always wanted to know if I should spin one rail banks in.

 

[dr_dave]

I always wanted to know if I should spin one rail banks in.

Use gearing outside spin on banks is definitely helpful. It prevents cut-induced-spin "twisting," allowing you to aim at the true bank angle. See:

For more info, see:

bank shot cut-induced spin effects​

 

[Tennesseejoe]

Use gearing outside spin on banks is definitely helpful. It prevents cut-induced-spin "twisting," allowing you to aim at the true bank angle. See:

Thanks so much for this and everything else you do to make my hobby enjoyable.

 

[dr_dave]

Thanks so much for this and everything else you do to make my hobby enjoyable.

You're very welcome. I'm glad to hear my stuff adds to your enjoyment of the game.

 

[gregcantrall]

I'm going with placebo. Maybe you are using more speed or backspin with the sidespin shots without knowing it.



The backspin drag shot definitely has science behind it, as you explain (more speed = less roll off).

Your use of the = has triggered my memory of the Foghorn Leghorn cartoons with the Little Egghead showing him how it works on paper.

 

[Jimmorrison]

Nice video, I watched all of it, as I do with all your vids. I also use at least a little bit of outside on cut shots. Most of the time, you can't afford not to. As far as the spot shot you asked about, I would follow that, with a very small amount of outside. For that type of shot, depending on traffic, potential scratch, etc., I can hit that really thick, with a lot of low outside. I am very comfortable with that shot.
Should you use spin to throw balls in when it is unnecessary? No. Do I do it? Yes. Not to make the ball, but to get the cue ball where I want it. I have found the whole "center ball", "master the tangent line", somewhat maddening. With my skill set, or lack thereof, it is not that easy. To achieve the perfect stun shot, while cutting a ball, is not that easy. Different lengths, different speeds, different conditions. I can break out balls, get position, run my pattern, using spin. I often fail, but not as often as when I'm trying to stun down the 90 degree tangent line.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I watched up to 1:30. All your example shots are from a game of 8 ball! What gives? You're in a position to change banger's mindset to play 9 ball! Get rid of that boring ass 8 ball game

 

[dr_dave]

I watched up to 1:30. All your example shots are from a game of 8 ball! What gives? You're in a position to change banger's mindset to play 9 ball! Get rid of that boring ass 8 ball game

Sorry, but 8-ball is the most popular game, and most of my viewers play 8-ball (and some also play 9-ball). I hope you watch the rest of the video so you can share your thoughts, especially on the 10-ball shootout shot later in the video.

 

[TheRooster]

Use gearing outside spin on banks is definitely helpful. It prevents cut-induced-spin "twisting," allowing you to aim at the true bank angle. See:

For more info, see:

bank shot cut-induced spin effects​

I am very interested in learning how to shoot banks (and really all shots) with the highest margin for error. I intended to shoot this bank (

, should start at 1:01:00) with gearing outside english and put a touch too much outside on it, which stung quite a bit, since I eventually lost from a 4-0 ball lead.

Discussing it with another player later, they mentioned that shooting it with inside to shorten the bank makes the pocket slightly bigger since the object ball isn't going into the side pocket at as much of an angle. This approach would also make the throw angle (edit: and spin transfer) less sensitive to error in sidespin. So even though it might not be as intuitive to judge the shot this way, it could be higher margin for error than gearing outside english. Really makes me wonder what the highest margin for error approach is.

 

[Fore Rail]

I watched up to 1:30. All your example shots are from a game of 8 ball! What gives? You're in a position to change banger's mindset to play 9 ball! Get rid of that boring ass 8 ball game

This one should be easy for you to snap off. After all it's just a bunch of bangers playing 8 ball.

 

[dr_dave]

I am very interested in learning how to shoot banks (and really all shots) with the highest margin for error. I intended to shoot this bank (

, should start at 1:01:00) with gearing outside english and put a touch too much outside on it, which stung quite a bit, since I eventually lost from a 4-0 ball lead.

Discussing it with another player later, they mentioned that shooting it with inside to shorten the bank makes the pocket slightly bigger since the object ball isn't going into the side pocket at as much of an angle. This approach would also make the throw angle (edit: and spin transfer) less sensitive to error in sidespin. So even though it might not be as intuitive to judge the shot this way, it could be higher margin for error than gearing outside english. Really makes me wonder what the highest margin for error approach is.

I think the answer depends on the person. If you are good at judging the bank angle with inside spin, that approach makes sense. Otherwise, getting better at judging gearing spin could make the natural outside-spin approach better. The 40% Rule here could help.

 

[TheRooster]

Would you use outside spin on the shootout shot like in some of the pro examples shown?

I think I would pretty much always shoot this with a rolling cue ball.

It's definitely an interesting question. With a rolling cue ball, the variables are mostly speed and ball conditions. With gearing outside, the variables are mostly CB deflection and swerve (table conditions, speed); at fast speed, it's mostly just deflection. So there is an argument to be made that if you shoot the shot at fast speed with gearing english, you can eliminate ball and table conditions.

 

[dr_dave]

I think I would pretty much always shoot this with a rolling cue ball.

It's definitely an interesting question. With a rolling cue ball, the variables are mostly speed and ball conditions. With gearing outside, the variables are mostly CB deflection and swerve (table conditions, speed); at fast speed, it's mostly just deflection. So there is an argument to be made that if you shoot the shot at fast speed with gearing english, you can eliminate ball and table conditions.

On a long sidespin shot like this, the toughest thing to judge is swerve (which certainly is a big factor at the shot speeds being used in the pro examples), and swerve depends on ball and cloth conditions.

 

[Jimmorrison]

I watched up to 1:30. All your example shots are from a game of 8 ball! What gives? You're in a position to change banger's mindset to play 9 ball! Get rid of that boring ass 8 ball game

Dude, eight ball is a thing! It can be a PITA, it can also be a lot of fun. It is just a different type of challenge. The greatest player the USA has ever seen, calls it his favorite game!

 

[straightline]

I am very interested in learning how to shoot banks (and really all shots) with the highest margin for error. I intended to shoot this bank (

, should start at 1:01:00) with gearing outside english and put a touch too much outside on it, which stung quite a bit, since I eventually lost from a 4-0 ball lead.

Discussing it with another player later, they mentioned that shooting it with inside to shorten the bank makes the pocket slightly bigger since the object ball isn't going into the side pocket at as much of an angle. This approach would also make the throw angle (edit: and spin transfer) less sensitive to error in sidespin. So even though it might not be as intuitive to judge the shot this way, it could be higher margin for error than gearing outside english. Really makes me wonder what the highest margin for error approach is.

I gotta say this about shooting in general.

It needs to be in your very existence. Zeroing into banks in general, you hear "shoot firm", "use draw", "use follow", outside, inside --by the greats and otherwise perfectly capable normals. I'm here to say, know 'em all.

Your biggest margin of error is getting it clear in your mind before you take another step. See, this mind part is the programming that drives everything else. It doesn't get any easier - or better than 100% thorough prep. Means just that - see, shoot, compare results; on every shot. That compare part - without an accurate visualization what do you compare?
That bank you missed - I won't even guess why. Clearly though, if you <knew> the shot, even the miss wouldn't have confused you.

Who am I? Nobody.

 

[TheRooster]

On a long sidespin shot like this, the toughest thing to judge is swerve (which certainly is a big factor at the shot speeds being used in the pro examples), and swerve depends on ball and cloth conditions.

Yes, I agree that in these examples they aren't shooting fast enough for swerve to be negligible, so table conditions aren't eliminated.