Any Vintage Joss Experts?

rodcar

rodcar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bought this cue recently and not sure what era it might be. Thinking a Bill Stoud 68 to 72 but would like to here from those more knowledgeable than myself. It is a 59" cue. Thanks for any help on this one. May be selling it and don't want to over price it. Linen has some scuff marks. Cue is nice and straight, only a ding or two and has ivory ferrules..
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rodcar said:
Bought this cue recently and not sure what era it might be. Thinking a Bill Stoud 68 to 72 but would like to here from those more knowledgeable than myself. It is a 59" cue. Thanks for any help on this one. May be selling it and don't want to over price it. Linen has some scuff marks. Cue is nice and straight, only a ding or two and has ivory ferrules..
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Nice cue. That is Dan Janes engraving. The cue is more than likely from the latter 1970s.
 
https://bluebookofpoolcuevalues.com/Pool_Cue_Values/Pool_Cue_Manufacturer.aspx?id=JOSS_CUES_LTD

by that logo, I'd say it was later than about 1973 and made by Dan.

More than likely you could send the photo to him and he would let you know. Usually pretty helpful when you talk with him. The few interactions I've had with him have impressed me with his knowledge of what he's built.

I had a rare phenolic shaft insert in a cue, he remembered building it and offered to buy it back.
 
Would anyone know if 59" was standard length on these cues and if possibly Tim Scruggs may have had a hand in the build. Made an inquiry with Joss but don't expect a reply as I have had little luck with them in the past.
Just read your post Cubswin, thanks for the info. Maybe I'll give Dan a call.
 
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Take the bumper off & post a picture. I might can give you a more exact time period if I see it.
 
I see early 80s myself, especially 81 and 82, given those joint collar rings. Also, they used brown KU bumpers in the earlier days of Joss, rather than black. That also doesn't look like the linen they used in the late 60s and early 70s.

Also, 59 inch doesn't mean anything without measuring both butt and shafts. The standard for the early Joss cues was 57 inches, which was 28 1/2 inches for the butt and shafts. Longer shafts were often made later, making the cue longer.

All the best,
WW
 
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WildWing said:
I see early 80s myself, especially 81 and 82, given those joint collar rings. Also, they used brown KU bumpers in the earlier days of Joss, rather than black. That also doesn't look like the linen they used in the late 60s and early 70s.

Also, 59 inch doesn't mean anything without measuring both butt and shafts. The standard for the early Joss cues was 57 inches, which was 27 1/2 inches for the butt and shafts. Longer shafts were often made later, making the cue longer.

All the best,
WW
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28 1/2 & 28 1/2

My early Joss is 57
The early Josswests are all over the board
 
I am really thinking it would be the same era as mine.

I'll be interested to see how this ends up.

Rings are the same as mine. Engraving very similar I think.

Mine has a brown bumper though. Of course, that may have been easily changed.

The linen is Cortland I think. Could be wrong.


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WildWing said:
Cortland for your cue, or the cue posted above? The one posted above does not look like Cortland at all. Specks are way too dark.
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Obviously most likely original, cable laid, and there were several brands used in addition to Cortland.





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tduncan said:
Early 80s. Just like WW said. That is the bumper that was being used.
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Indeed, that bumper and weight bolt were used in the eighties.


But I believe that bumper and weight bolt were also used in the seventies as well. No?



The black bumper like that has exactly the same dimensions as the KU bumper.

The Diamond Series cues, for example, had both the brown Brunswick KU bumper and the black version. That is how they are pictured in the catalog, and I have seen them with both.

I do believe we have seen original Joss cues from the seventies with the black bumper as well as the brown, no?

I am not entirely sure that the bumper color alone can be used to accurately date a Joss.


I do not wish to argue with you, just discuss. You have been a wealth of information on Joss here on AZB and I respect your opinions. You have owned a number of them and certainly know a lot about them. I will stand corrected if you have definitive information.


Back in about 1992 when Janes made my jump cue I ordered a new bumper for my old Joss at the same time. When I ordered it he asked "black or brown?" and he said they were the same bumper in dimensions and the cue might have had either one originally.

My cue had a brown bumper. I ordered black. I didn't know it would matter many years hence but I still have the original anyway as well as several brand new KU bumpers to replace it if I want to. The bumper he sent was an exact match to a KU but black.

My cue currently has the original brown KU on it which shows its age. I will keep one new KU in case it ever needs replaced.





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Chopdoc said:
Indeed, that bumper and weight bolt were used in the eighties.


But I believe that bumper and weight bolt were also used in the seventies as well. No?



The black bumper like that has exactly the same dimensions as the KU bumper.

The Diamond Series cues, for example, had both the brown Brunswick KU bumper and the black version. That is how they are pictured in the catalog, and I have seen them with both.

I do believe we have seen original Joss cues from the seventies with the black bumper as well as the brown, no?

I am not entirely sure that the bumper color alone can be used to accurately date a Joss.


I do not wish to argue with you, just discuss. You have been a wealth of information on Joss here on AZB and I respect your opinions. You have owned a number of them and certainly know a lot about them. I will stand corrected if you have definitive information.


Back in about 1992 when Janes made my jump cue I ordered a new bumper for my old Joss at the same time. When I ordered it he asked "black or brown?" and he said they were the same bumper in dimensions and the cue might have had either one originally.

My cue had a brown bumper. I ordered black. I didn't know it would matter many years hence but I still have the original anyway as well as several brand new KU bumpers to replace it if I want to. The bumper he sent was an exact match to a KU but black.

My cue currently has the original brown KU on it which shows its age. I will keep one new KU in case it ever needs replaced.
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That bumper and weight bolt were indeed used in the 70s, from 1976 on.

I believe the answer is 1976 was the cut-over year for Joss moving from the brown KU bumper to the black bumper. I had more than one in that year, so I can be pretty sure it happened in about the middle of the year. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but I'm pretty certain of that time period.

The cue we're commenting on has not only the black bumper, but the centrally-located dashed joint collar rings of 1981 and 1982, as well as the darker green speck linen they used from that time period. Actually they used that linen from the mid 70s on, not only 1981 and 1982. They used the lighter green speck Cortland in the earlier 70s as well as late 60s. However, the late 60s cues had different joint collars.

Doc, I'm now thinking your Joss is from the earlier period, pre-1975 or so, probably early 70s, given the bumper and the wrap. And if so, it's a rare one, to have the centrally-located dash rings in the joint collar. I haven't seen another one like it, but I've seen tons of the 1981 and 1982 Joss cues, and they didn't have the KU bumpers.

All the best,
WW
 
It's an interesting discussion.

I wonder also if we know when they moved to the narrower butt, more modern dimension cue. In other words, do we know when the fat butt Joss cues were phased out? I think it was fairly early but I don't really know.

Mine is a modern dimension non-fat butt cue...obviously, but I thought I would state it.


I figured that weight bolt started in the mid seventies. You placing it in 76 does not surprise me.


In the end, I don't think there is anything better than just putting a cue in Dan Jane's hands for such info. For the earliest cues I am sure Stroud is at least an equally accurate resource.

A lot of people seem eager to link Stroud or Scruggs to their block letter Joss. I am happy enough to say Janes made my Joss.

I do sometimes wonder what might be marked under the wrap. But hopefully it will never come off in my lifetime.





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That particular black bumper is not the normal one used during the late 80s or 90s. It is different. I've handled enough cues from the early eighties to know & have a few now.

I know what I'm looking for with it.

The stitch ringwork is usually the indicator of the cue being from the late 70s or early 80s. They made the "block letter logo cues" at least up until 1983, maybe later. But that was a transition time. There is overlap with everything.

I think Doc's cue is from the same time. Just my opinion. Again I'm sure there is overlap with them using black or brown bumpers. I never seen a cue verified form the early 70s with that stitch ringwork. Earliest that I've seen is 1978. But again overlap with everything.

Also just because it was made in 1983 vs. 1975 or earlier shouldn't matter. The cues I've handled from the early 80s are usually the better cues. Who makes the best cues the first few years they start making cues? No one. It annoys me to hear people say "the good ones from 68-72". I'm sure Bill Stroud & Dan Janes would agree they were not making their best cues when they started. Those particular cues potentially are more "collectable" because the two legends were making them together & that will never happen again & there are very few left out there left.

As for the wrap I would have to defer to WW on that. As most of my cues I did not see new & he was there to see what the wraps looked like originally. So I would trust his knowledge on that.
 
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Chopdoc said:
It's an interesting discussion.

I wonder also if we know when they moved to the narrower butt, more modern dimension cue. In other words, do we know when the fat butt Joss cues were phased out? I think it was fairly early but I don't really know.

Mine is a modern dimension non-fat butt cue...obviously, but I thought I would state it.


I figured that weight bolt started in the mid seventies. You placing it in 76 does not surprise me.


In the end, I don't think there is anything better than just putting a cue in Dan Jane's hands for such info. For the earliest cues I am sure Stroud is at least an equally accurate resource.

A lot of people seem eager to link Stroud or Scruggs to their block letter Joss. I am happy enough to say Janes made my Joss.

I do sometimes wonder what might be marked under the wrap. But hopefully it will never come off in my lifetime.





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I've had several cues refinished by them & I always take the wrap off before I ship. I've never seen anything that would help indicate anything. I have one cue that Dan refinished before I purchased it & he said the year 1974 was wrote under the wrap & he remembered the cue. Other than that, nothing.
 
tduncan said:
I've had several cues refinished by them & I always take the wrap off before I ship. I've never seen anything that would help indicate anything. I have one cue that Dan refinished before I purchased it & he said the year 1974 was wrote under the wrap & he remembered the cue. Other than that, nothing.
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There was one in the Gallery that Ideologist had refinished that had a name under the wrap. Other than that I have never heard of anything.

Personally, I think my cue was likely made in the late seventies. Using your date, that would be 78 or after. Basically because when I got it in 85 it already looked old, and I was told it was something like 10 years old.

If I had to guess a range I would say 78 to 83 based on the rings.


As you say, there is overlap, so there is some wiggle room on when some of these features might have changed.

They never stopped building customs either, so I guess those could blur the lines as well. Janes still had KU bumpers in his shop in 92 and I bet if you wanted one on a custom build it would not have been a problem.


As far as the later cues likely being better I have to agree. Still, people do love to try to link Stroud or Scruggs to their JOSS.
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