Anyone seen this trick?

pillage6 said:
That is a pretty brave statement, are you saying that everyone should learn everything by experience and their own experiments? If so, we would all be learning how to make fire. How do you govern what is talked about and what is not? How do you make a certain subject okay to be taught and others taboo?
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Before I answer your questions, let me say that I hope I pick up the context in which you are asking them correctly. OK, here goes.

How do I govern and what is taboo? For me, it is simple. If magic secrets are being talked about in a public forum such as this - that is a massive no-no. If people want to learn magic, that's fine. Great, if you will, but they should have to look for it in, first, their public library (what we would call tricks that are in the "public domain"), then hunt down their local magic store via the yellow pages (I am still a fan of the old-fashioned bricks and mortar magic shop as opposed to the virtual internet-based stores).

I could sit here and rattle off the names of a bunch of books that got me, and many other magicians, started on our long road in learning our craft and most of them are in the public domain. If someone wants to learn magic, that's great. They'll hunt the stuff down. But why should our secrets be exposed to all and sundry on TV shows and the like, thus costing fellow magicians their livelihood?

pillage6 said:
How did you learn sir? Are you self taught? If you are I applaud you, but my guess is that most of not all of us were taught in our respective skills by someone else.
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How did I learn? Just as above. I found out about a place called Tam Shepherd's in Glasgow. Mostly a joke shop, but has a fairly decent magic section at the back. When I started going there and showing an interest in magic, I had to gain the shopkeeper's trust before he would really help me out. And I mean I had to gain it. I had to prove that I wasn't out to find out secrets and share them with my school friends. I had to work on the stuff in books I had bought and make sure I do at least some of it, or prove that I had been trying to get certain things correct before he would offer me advice on the technical and practical side of what I was trying to learn.

In short, yes, I have been (to a certain extent) guided on my way to learning magic. But I am, however, also self-taught. I buy books, magazines, DVDs, etc and learn the magic that's in them and, once they are perfected to my satisfaction, I take them out into the big, bad world. Most magicians I know are like this.

The more a magician learns about their branch of magic, the more they can create. Sure, some of it will have been created before, but some of it may be original. Some of it may even be good.
 
The statement I was making was more of a general one toward any topic, not magic persay since I know very little (or at all, except that it is awesome when performed well) about magic.

So if are "self-taught" you read books, DVD's and such, isn't that sharing information too? So what you are saying is that you have to earn someone's trust to learn something from them? Should there be a standardized dexterity or personality test for information sharing? Does someone have to write a book and charge for it to make it okay to give the secrets away?

From a very layman's point of view it's like you are telling people to go screw themselves, it would be the same as a top player telling someone to "figure it out" when asked about a certain shot. Is that fair? Would you accept that as an answer and respect it?

Not trying to argue, just trying to learn more about your point of view.
 
Reply to Andrews thoughts

OMG!!!

I can't stay away from this thread very long...Geesh! Ok I'll answer a few of these, but I need to get back to my pool practice. LOL

Andrew Manning-If you are a third type, then what happens to you is that your curiosity digs so deep, that you eventually work your way into wanting to be at least an amature magician t o learn all you can or at least buy the materials and to the research. That is how most of us were, before the bug hits. Otherwise, your curiosity will fade and it will go away...until next time...LOL
 
Reply to Shorty

Shorty, I love Penn and Teller. I feel they strive for new boundaries and like to debacle some of the older over used and you can buy it in a dime store stuff. I feel they have earned their keep. I'm not a fan of telling any of it, but when they tell you something, they cover it back up afterward, and you ponder whether or not they really told you the truth. That is very cool in my opinion.
 
Colin & Tbeaux reflections

Colin (adversaries at last :p AH HA!)& Tbeaux,

Let me put it in these terms. If you are serious about learning something, no one can stop you. Everything you can learn about pool and or magic is available from somewhere. Only those who are driven enough will take the time to learn it. Those who don't live with not knowing. (Karate, some take the steps to learn it and some just look like fools. HIIIIYAH! :D )

So with that said. If you want to learn about something then go forth and prosper, otherwise respect the codes that are built in to the art you are curious about. The code for magicians is not to share their secrets. Respect it, but know that if you really need to know, you will have to make the sacrifices it takes to gain the knowledge. We don't give our pool tips away to everyone (although it wouldn't hurt, because only the ones who really care remember them anyway), but if someone is really willing to learn, we share things with them. That is how the right of passage seems to be in pool, at least in my eyes. JMO
 
MacGyver said:
One quick thing(but for the most part I agree with alot of what has been said):



I really disagree with this, at least until we are living in a communist society and creators can be supported without protecting their IP.


The fact of the matter is that in order for the art of magic to grow and become better, we need magical creators coming up with inventive, original stuff to push further.

These people need to eat and support families, and that means that either they have to work a full time job and try to find time to create magic, OR they need to be able to support themselves when working 40+ hours a week creating magic, working out bugs, publishing, ect and all that.

If we lived in a magical community void of ethics, respect for creators and lack of IP, then what would happen is as soon as anyone came up with anything new, it would get exposed to many and very few would buy the book/DVD/whatever(due to the lack of respect for the creator).

That person would quickly not make enough money to support himself as a magical creator and would need to find another source of income to live in today's society, and as such he wouldnt have much time for magic and the art would suffer.

Imagine this on a wide scale and you have basically how the community is trending now(currently many new people in magic will watch an online demo of an effect and then steal that effect for their show without buying the effect).

It has already forced creators to create less or come up with more secret ways to release material, either charging a lot to try to make only proffesionals(those with respect) able to afford it(in hopes it wont be stolen by the masses), or with non-disclosure agreements, or by only teaching the material face to face for a workshop fee...

Many on the whole has only suffered due to this trend, so I really cant agree that free information of people's recent creations is going to improve the art, at least not until everyone has enough generosity to send a hefty check to creators anytime they use the effect, because if not than the art will suffer.


Again, all my opinion but if you take a look at recent/current events in magic it backs this up.

-macgyver
ps I love penn and teller and have met and talked with both and they are great guys!(dont tell them I said that, tell them I said they were horrible for magic).

pps I also would like to point out that I typed a lengthy explanation that i know there are more than 2 types and I was simplyfying for the post(this part you left out of the quote). I would still say you fit more into type 2, whereby you just dont have the time or energy to pursue learning any effects, but by your nature of wanting to know the working and fanscinated with them you are the type to really appriciate the workings and in type 2.(but I agree that its oversimplyfying)
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Macgyver,
There are aspects of IP that I don't think you have considered that I believe would change your perspective. In fact, I believe IP laws do more to stagnate development of industry than to assist its progress.

Here is the 'Libertarian Case Against Intellectual Property Laws':
http://libertariannation.org/a/f31l1.html

Note: Libertarians are as far from communists as one can be. IP is essentially a government protected monopoly.

Imagine if some imaginary guy Jack Smith had patented the idea of a computer in 1950 and that legal protection banned anyone else from building and improving the design of computers. And Jack Smith just happened to not be a very good computer developer or businessman. Then the computer age would not have happened. This type of thing (though not all as severe of course) is going on everyday to the cost of consumers and society.

Colin
 
Colin Colenso said:
Macgyver,
There are aspects of IP that I don't think you have considered that I believe would change your perspective. In fact, I believe IP laws do more to stagnate development of industry than to assist its progress.

Here is the 'Libertarian Case Against Intellectual Property Laws':
http://libertariannation.org/a/f31l1.html

Note: Libertarians are as far from communists as one can be. IP is essentially a government protected monopoly.

Imagine if some imaginary guy Jack Smith had patented the idea of a computer in 1950 and that legal protection banned anyone else from building and improving the design of computers. And Jack Smith just happened to not be a very good computer developer or businessman. Then the computer age would not have happened. This type of thing (though not all as severe of course) is going on everyday to the cost of consumers and society.

Colin
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Obviously the system is not perfect. However, I shared the idea of making the little packets of powdered drink mix in individual sizes for bottled water with Kool-Aid. 6 months later I get a letter about how they can't accept ideas this way. Within a few months, Kraft who owns Crystal Light and Kool-Aid came out with my idea. What did I get? NOTHING! They robbed me blind and I got nothing. But hey, it is my fault after all for not getting that IP on paper before submitting it. So it is all a two way street, it doesn't just hurt or not hurt the big guys.

SIDE NOTE:
:) Kraft Foods can just bite me, BTW! :)

Wow, it feels good to get that out on the Internet like that! :D
 
Donovan said:
Obviously the system is not perfect. However, I shared the idea of making the little packets of powdered drink mix in individual sizes for bottled water with Kool-Aid. 6 months later I get a letter about how they can't accept ideas this way. Within a few months, Kraft who owns Crystal Light and Kool-Aid came out with my idea. What did I get? NOTHING! They robbed me blind and I got nothing. But hey, it is my fault after all for not getting that IP on paper before submitting it. So it is all a two way street, it doesn't just hurt or not hurt the big guys.

SIDE NOTE:
:) Kraft Foods can just bite me, BTW! :)

Wow, it feels good to get that out on the Internet like that! :D
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Now everything makes sense to me....
....The Magicians have been drinking the Kool-Aid:eek: :D
 
Imagine if some imaginary guy Jack Smith had patented the idea of a computer in 1950 and that legal protection banned anyone else from building and improving the design of computers. And Jack Smith just happened to not be a very good computer developer or businessman. Then the computer age would not have happened. This type of thing (though not all as severe of course) is going on everyday to the cost of consumers and society.
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Yes Colin, but imagine if Jack and the rest of the world knew that you couldnt support yourself with inventions because you couldnt protect them, in that case jack may very well not have spent any time working on the creation of the computer and we might never have had a computer either...

Unless you have a viable method to make sure that the creator can support himself creating, I can't agree with getting rid of IP as the end result will be the same that you fear, that creation will be stagnated as it won't be a viable source of income for anyone but monopolies.

In a world sans IP, any invention would quickly be snatched up by wal-mart and some chinese/taiwan factory and made up for cheap with the inventor getting nothing and the product still remaining a monopoly for the big company that can afford to manufacture it, and then the only people inventing things would be the big companies as they are the only ones that can afford to do it.

I believe when looking at IP, you need to not only look at post-invention, but prior to the invention.

Your reasoning makes sense assuming that inventions will occur at the same rate regardless, and a main part of my argument is that creators NEED to be able to profit from their creations and make a living, or they will do something other than invent....(and therefore stub the growth which seems to be a big part of your reasoning for getting rid of IP...)
 
MacGyver said:
Yes Colin, but imagine if Jack and the rest of the world knew that you couldnt support yourself with inventions because you couldnt protect them, in that case jack may very well not have spent any time working on the creation of the computer and we might never have had a computer either...

Unless you have a viable method to make sure that the creator can support himself creating, I can't agree with getting rid of IP as the end result will be the same that you fear, that creation will be stagnated as it won't be a viable source of income for anyone but monopolies.

In a world sans IP, any invention would quickly be snatched up by wal-mart and some chinese/taiwan factory and made up for cheap with the inventor getting nothing and the product still remaining a monopoly for the big company that can afford to manufacture it, and then the only people inventing things would be the big companies as they are the only ones that can afford to do it.

I believe when looking at IP, you need to not only look at post-invention, but prior to the invention.

Your reasoning makes sense assuming that inventions will occur at the same rate regardless, and a main part of my argument is that creators NEED to be able to profit from their creations and make a living, or they will do something other than invent....(and therefore stub the growth which seems to be a big part of your reasoning for getting rid of IP...)
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Your questions have all been answered and here the information is offered free: http://www.stephankinsella.com/ip/

btw. People do and have profited from their inventions many times without IP protection. They just don't necessarily get to control an entire market for 20 years due to their legal connections. In fact, many inventors lost out on monetizing their creations because they didn't have the legal or business sense to do so.

I agree it's good to reward people for their contributions to new ideas. But the practical application of doing such in a beneficial way is troublesome through legal measures. There are free-market alternatives such as secrecy and probably most effective is branding. A good brand can demand twice the price as a copy that may be identical in all but brand name.

It's a complex subject, and the answers may not be as simple as we're led to believe. IP laws may have done great damage to innovation according to experts that I consider reliable and unbiased.
 
Tbeaux said:
Regarding a comparison of pool and magic. Freddy B. stated in "Banking with the Beard" that the great road players almost never give/gave away their tricks and techniques. While I see very little purpose to this guarding of "secrets" by pool players it is most definately needed by magicians.If they explained the tricks and illusions eventually no one would pay to see them.

Terry
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I agree Terry ::::: Magic has that suspicion or mystic over it as a person try's to figure out the trick...magicians have their code..we all should respect that ..Macguyver and Donovan i applaud you for your skill and attempts to keep your tricks a secret....
 
Tbeaux said:
Regarding a comparison of pool and magic. Freddy B. stated in "Banking with the Beard" that the great road players almost never give/gave away their tricks and techniques. While I see very little purpose to this guarding of "secrets" by pool players it is most definately needed by magicians.If they explained the tricks and illusions eventually no one would pay to see them.

Terry
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A far more eloquent way of putting the matter than I could have ever come up with.

Thanks, Terry!
 
That statement is a good one, I guess my contention is that the trick was relatively simple and isn't threatening to anyone's livelyhood. The same thing holds true for certain shots or strategies that are shared on this forum, just because this one is dedicated to Billiards means we can't share information about anything else?
 
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