Anyone using TOI?

[Low500]

The thing is with using just a “touch of inside”, the knowledge is that deflection is negligible.
That leaves you with two other bits of knowledge, the effect of a very small amount of inside english on ob throw and then it’s spinless effect on the cue ball.

Leonard 'Bugs' Rucker was an advocate of that 'touch of inside'. He called it the "dead ball affect".....because of the lack of spin on the cue ball as you mentioned. He testified that was a great help in his banking (and he was one of the best at banks)
Maybe it's easier to put some form of english (spin) on the cue ball than it is to actually hit the dead center over and over and over again. Of that, I do not know..??? I'm not that good.
As an analogy....I do know that my dad was a professional card mechanic and he always said that one of the ways to detect when someone was dealing seconds or centers at a game, was to listen for the sound (you'll never see it)...as they made a slight swishing noise coming out of the deck which was different from the straight deal. (bottoms or tops will not make that sound). So, in order to overcome that he PUT THE SWISH IN....on all deals, instead of trying to take the swish OUT.
Maybe some of these pool players ignore the "experts" and put in some english naturally instead of struggling to take it OUT..???
It's an interesting topic for conversation, for sure. Grady Matthews, when commentating a match, used to be very outspoken on "he needs inside english on this shot because it very naturally sends the object ball into the pocket instead of fighting the table"

 

[Imac007]

Maybe it's easier to put some form of english (spin) on the cue ball than it is to actually hit the dead center over and over and over again

First I will quibble a bit with the characterization of “putting spin” on the cue ball.
Too many players use a flourish, which is not a straight stroke, trying to spin the ball.
My description of how I apply inside english includes a constraint to the cue line moving farther away from the center than the original cue line, trying to cue through straight, a completely neutral stroke, a definite bias away from applying spin.
That said I use it on banks and feel I get a truer angle.
I line up the bank based on a true 2:1 line first.
Using that line I locate the middle of the ball path between the two ball and pivot from that point to the inside.
In order for the amount of inside to be consistent, I use a measure of about the depth of a penny, about 1.5mm, an eighth of a 12mm tip, from the core center of mass of the cue ball as viewed from above.
Note this is the tip contact point line from surface contact to the point adjacent to the center of mass of the ball.
This cue line rotates the tip surface away from the tip edge towards the tip center.
That helps promote the deader feel, since both BHE and FHE move contact away from cb center to the edges.
Using that line I use lag weight with draw or follow, to cinch a ball.
This new cue line, because deflection is negligible, a just a touch more cut to the 2:1 line, countered by a slight inside throw dynamic working in the opposite direction.
Object balls close to the rail, or close together, will be skidding on contact, so need a very firm hit.
Rails will vary so banks need calibration and this is a starting point.

 

[lfigueroa]

Leonard 'Bugs' Rucker was an advocate of that 'touch of inside'. He called it the "dead ball affect".....because of the lack of spin on the cue ball as you mentioned. He testified that was a great help in his banking (and he was one of the best at banks)
Maybe it's easier to put some form of english (spin) on the cue ball than it is to actually hit the dead center over and over and over again. Of that, I do not know..??? I'm not that good.
As an analogy....I do know that my dad was a professional card mechanic and he always said that one of the ways to detect when someone was dealing seconds or centers at a game, was to listen for the sound (you'll never see it)...as they made a slight swishing noise coming out of the deck which was different from the straight deal. (bottoms or tops will not make that sound). So, in order to overcome that he PUT THE SWISH IN....on all deals, instead of trying to take the swish OUT.
Maybe some of these pool players ignore the "experts" and put in some english naturally instead of struggling to take it OUT..???
It's an interesting topic for conversation, for sure. Grady Matthews, when commentating a match, used to be very outspoken on "he needs inside english on this shot because it very naturally sends the object ball into the pocket instead of fighting the table"

If it's got inside english it has spin on it.

Funny how you like to cite dead guys who aren't around to explain.

Lou Figueroa

 

[boogieman]

The thing is with using just a “touch of inside”, the knowledge is that deflection is negligible.
That leaves you with two other bits of knowledge, the effect of a very small amount of inside english on ob throw and then it’s spinless effect on the cue ball.

Really TOI shouldn't be that surprising to anyone who's played enough pool with a standard maple shaft. It's all about playing the deflection and that IMO is what makes pool the most fun. Want to kill a ball way before it would and alter the tangent? Want to cut it thinner, throw it with inside or outside? Thicken a thin hit, thin a thicker hit... deflection baby! Understand deflection and you can do wonders. 1P is mostly played with traditional wooden shafts, there's a reason for that. You have to manipulate the heck out of the CB in "unnatural" ways to get the action you want.

 

[tonythetiger583]

TOI is playing close to center cue ball, but favoring the inside of the cue ball.

That is the side of the cue ball that makes contact with the object ball on shots that are not straight in.

When the cue ball hits the object ball, the TOI offsets the natural spin that the cue ball receives from hitting the object ball. So, when the cue ball then contacts a rail, after hitting the object ball, it comes off at a more natural angle and doesn’t have the added spin. For me, it makes it much easier to predict and control angles of the cue ball moving around the table for position. The cue ball must be hit firmer to travel around the table with no spin. The cue ball will look kind of like it is sliding or floating.

I sometimes refer to TOI as playing “dead ball” because of the way the cue ball looks.

Wait is TOI just to offset CIT? This seems really useful.

I thought it was to squirt the cueball over to make the cut. I was using more and more punchy squirt to try and turn a straight in alignment into a 15 degree cut.

But if its to offset spin off the rails to keep stuff from widening funky, that makes a lot of sense.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Thicken a thin hit, thin a thicker hit... deflection baby!

Aim thicker or thinner, baby!

Deflection (squirt) is an aiming challenge, not an advantage.

pj
chgo

 

[boogieman]

Aim thicker or thinner, baby!

Deflection (squirt) is an aiming challenge, not an advantage.

pj
chgo

Still, it's the most fun part for me. No need to think too hard on deflection, just hit it how it needs hit!

 

[The_JV]

Deflection (squirt) is an aiming challenge, not an advantage.

...or maybe the glass is actually half full

I understand that squirt is something that needs to be compensated for and therefore a "challenge". However it can be considered a tool when you have a full grasp of what to expect after pulling the trigger.

For example when an OB requires a small amount of throw to pocket because of a nearby obstruction hampering a clean shot. I simply aim for the edge of the obstruction and focus on generating enough squirt to avoid it. I'm not concerned about aiming the OB correctly. Only missing the obstruction with squirt. The necessary OB throw will take care of itself as it's a byproduct of what I had to do to get the CB there in the first place.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I simply aim for the edge of the obstruction and focus on generating enough squirt to avoid it.

"Focus on generating enough squirt" = adjusting your tip offset the right amount for the amount of squirt you need. That's the same as adjusting your aim the right amount for the amount of tip offset you need - just reversing the description. It doesn't make squirt any more or less useful or challenging.

pj
chgo

 

[The_JV]

"Focus on generating enough squirt" = adjusting your tip offset the right amount for the amount of squirt you need. That's the same as adjusting your aim the right amount for the amount of tip offset you need - just reversing the description. It doesn't make squirt any more or less useful or challenging.

Yep you can spin it however you wish. In my description I don't pay attention to the OB. Only the obstruction I'm trying to avoid. Squirt is the tool I use to avoid the obstruction. I'd lay a JB sized hypothetical bet, that top teir 1 pocket and 14.1 players handle this in the same manner.

Feel free to consider squirt what you will. Just trying shed light on it from a different perspective.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Feel free to consider squirt what you will. Just trying shed light on it from a different perspective.

Ditto. Thanks for your thoughts.

pj
chgo

 

[Imac007]

Wait is TOI just to offset CIT? This seems really useful.

50% english = maximum throw
It is roughly a 7.5 mm offset, at center of mass, from center ball line.
If 50% is max, then less is less.
I use roughly about a 1.5mm offset, generating negligible deflection and the ball goes where my cue is pointed.
Notice that the blue graph line shows 1° of throw consistently, ACROSS ALL ANGLES TESTED.
That’s the flat line for those who might be color blind.
VIRTUALLY NO THROW (1°), across all angles tested.
A slightly modified ghost ball line works across all angles tested.
BECAUSE THE THROW IS CONSISTENT and minimal, a predictable ob path is possible.

 

[Bob Jewett]

View attachment 611711
50% english = maximum throw
It is roughly a 14+ mm offset, at center of mass, from center ball line.
If 50% is max, then less is less.
I use roughly about a 1.5mm offset, generating negligible deflection and the ball goes where my cue is pointed.
Notice that the blue graph line shows 1° of throw consistently, ACROSS ALL ANGLES TESTED.
That’s the flat line for those who might be color blind.
VIRTUALLY NO THROW (1°), across all angles tested.
A slightly modified ghost ball line works across all angles tested.
BECAUSE THE THROW IS CONSISTENT.

Of course the use of 50% inside has nothing at all to do with TOI. The word "touch" is very important to that concept. For most pool players, 50% of maximum side spin is great steaming piles of english.

 

[Imac007]

Of course the use of 50% inside has nothing at all to do with TOI. The word "touch" is very important to that concept. For most pool players, 50% of maximum side spin is great steaming piles of english.

Just setting perspective based on physics findings.
These are facts based on actual at the table findings using a non-skidding ball, a firm stroke and inside english.
That is what the graph tells us.
I use a consistently modified ghost ball line to the undercut side of the pocket and apply the same amount of inside english on every shot where I choose to substitute it for center ball, frequently.
The main reason is the near elimination of throw, regardless of angle or speed, a truer result than center ball ghost ball, without variable adjustment.
Center ball needs a multitude of adjustments based on speed and cut angle.
Inside creates a consistent amount of throw across that spectrum and a single adjustment does the trick.
I use an amount small enough that deflection is negligible, keeping it simple.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

50% of maximum side spin is great steaming piles of english.

Imac said 14+ mm offset - that's 100% of maximum side spin, double the great steaming piles.

pj
chgo

 

[Imac007]

Imac said 14+ mm offset - that's 100% of maximum side spin, double the great steaming piles.

pj
chgo

You’re right that’s 100% english so, the corrected amount won’t be more than 7.5mm or 5x what I apply.
Thanks.
Will correct the original post.
Thanks for taking the time to read and respond.
Too often it feels like I’m spouting into the ether.