Casting 9s
Member
Is anyone out there still using CJ Wiley’s “Touch of Inside” system? If so, how do you feel it stacks up to CTE and other popular systems?
Anyone using TOI?
- Thread starter Casting 9s
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I've worked with it. And sometimes it is hard to beat. Especially on a bar table.
Then suddenly the TOI starts breaking down on me with inconsistency. That's what happens FOR ME...not everyone..
Then I scamper like a scared rabbit back to my old reliable repeatable CTE.
For me, it is just hard to serve two masters. And I'm a very old man also, so I'm not really capable of spreading my concentration too thin.
No doubt about TOI being a workable tool though. And CJ shoots out the lights with it. And quite easy to execute.
Easier to execute than Poolology, in my opinion, although I've watched Brian Crist in person when he didn't even know I was there, use his Poolology with excellent results against Aranas. However Crist is a math wizard so in his hands it's dynamite. (I sure didn't jump my ass up there to play either one of 'em. I stayed in the seat and kept my big mouth shut
)The big 3 of aiming systems, I think, are CTE, TOI, and Poolology. It's just a matter of personal choice and whichever one a shooter feels good and happy with.
In the hands of Tyler Styer or Mary Kenniston it's CTE all the way. For Brian Crist it's Poolology. For CJ Wiley, it's TOI.
I wouldn't beat up on or ridicule any of the Big 3. "If you like one of 'em...then by golly use it" is my way of thinking. The old different strokes for different folks concept.
ALL are superior to that idiotic invisible "ghosty ball" thing, IMO. (In 60 years of shooting pool I've never been able to see an invisible ball down there)
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On semi-straight in shots, it's a very useful tool in the pocket .
It is not an aiming system imo.
You still need to use the ghost ball to use it .
It does not tell you where the cue ball needs to be aimed .
It is not an aiming system imo.
You still need to use the ghost ball to use it .
It does not tell you where the cue ball needs to be aimed .
Casting 9s
Member
Yeah I’ve had a lot of success with TOI and I think it took my game to the next level, however, there are times where I’m just basically guessing on how far inside I need to go, and that spells inconsistency. That’s my only real gripe with it.
I have played TOI-style for years.
I do not equate TOI to an aiming system, either.
I equate it to a playing system.
Casting 9s
Member
Can you elaborate on that a little? I’m still fairly new to pool so I’m trying to soak up as much info as I can. What are some of the ancillary benefits of TOI?
And by golly, when you get right down to it that's what ALL of them should really be called.
"Playing Systems"......yessir that's pretty darn good.
I salute you.
TOI is playing close to center cue ball, but favoring the inside of the cue ball.
That is the side of the cue ball that makes contact with the object ball on shots that are not straight in.
When the cue ball hits the object ball, the TOI offsets the natural spin that the cue ball receives from hitting the object ball. So, when the cue ball then contacts a rail, after hitting the object ball, it comes off at a more natural angle and doesn’t have the added spin. For me, it makes it much easier to predict and control angles of the cue ball moving around the table for position. The cue ball must be hit firmer to travel around the table with no spin. The cue ball will look kind of like it is sliding or floating.
I sometimes refer to TOI as playing “dead ball” because of the way the cue ball looks.
It’s a cueing method as described by CJ.
In the comments on az he did tell us he aims at the undercut side of the pocket, every method needs a target.
He also said that when using his “hammer stroke” he feels the overcut, that results in a shot correction, back to the pocket center.
His “touch” according to az posts is an eighth of a tip, on the ball surface.
The key is that it is applied by a parallel shift of the cue which is not quite parallel.
He describes the shift as starting with the butt with a minuscule lag of the tip.
That toes the cue line slightly back towards the ghost ball center.
After looking at the physics using Dr Dave data and graphs some insights emerged.
Even maximum throw inside english (50%), with a firm stroke, and follow or draw, had only 1° of throw across all angles tested.
The amount of deflection from an 1/8 of a tip offset is negligible, even on a hard hit as implied by a “hammer stroke”.
Small amounts of english have the same amount of throw regardless of speed.
The conclusion from all this is that the toed in cue line corrected the cut angle bringing the impact back to pocket center.
Because, throw and deflection are both negligible using that small amount of english.
An ⅛ of tip on a 12mm tip is 1.5mm, according to coin specs a US penny is 1.52mm.
CJ Wiley’s tip size is a mystery to me but he did say you could sense the overcut in the adjusted cue line.
From this I discarded his hammer stroke, applied geometry to arrive at a cueing method, that applies the same amount of english, in the impact zone regardless of the length of the shot, cut angle or speed.
The result is a consistent amount of throw, no more than 1°, when using a non-skidding cue ball.
I call it convergent english because it converges with the original undercut aim line CJ used, before his toed in cue line shift.
I use his same 1.5mm inside offset but measure it from the inner core center of the cue ball, not the surface, the cb doesn’t care where the ghost ball line is located only the lever turning the ball, to generate english.
My personal answer to the posters question is that I do not use CJ‘s version of TOI, but I use an evolution of his cueing method including reference aim recommendation, on several shots each game.
This to me is more significant even than nearly eliminating throw as an aiming variable.
The no side spin cue ball, when contacting a rail, is no longer slowed down or sped up because of side spin.
The angle in and angle out rebounds are easier to read.
Where previously I was guessing how much spin to apply and how much deflection I would experience accordingly, when finding a ball track to position, I now simply adjust height of tip contact to create different angle in - angle out paths, that allow rough geometry to read the angle to a second rail.
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That was always my take on it. I've never adopted an official use of TOI, but do tend to favour that side of the CB merely out of personal preference. So I'm sure I've reaped some rewards of it's use even though that wasn't the intent.
Wish I could hang my hat on the use of some specialty system, but my potting ability is simply born from the actual #1 method on the planet. The other so called "big 3" are all offset down the list by ghost ball. If you can't visualize a ball image, then your game is going to suffer in many aspects that goes well beyond merely aim.
"Millions of statisfied Ghost Ball users and 2 who think it stinks"I've worked with it. And sometimes it is hard to beat. Especially on a bar table.
Then suddenly the TOI starts breaking down on me with inconsistency. That's what happens FOR ME...not everyone..
Then I scamper like a scared rabbit back to my old reliable repeatable CTE.
For me, it is just hard to serve two masters. And I'm a very old man also, so I'm not really capable of spreading my concentration too thin.
No doubt about TOI being a workable tool though. And CJ shoots out the lights with it. And quite easy to execute.
Easier to execute than Poolology, in my opinion, although I've watched Brian Crist in person when he didn't even know I was there, use his Poolology with excellent results against Aranas. However Crist is a math wizard so in his hands it's dynamite. (I sure didn't jump my ass up there to play either one of 'em. I stayed in the seat and kept my big mouth shut
The big 3 of aiming systems, I think, are CTE, TOI, and Poolology. It's just a matter of personal choice and whichever one a shooter feels good and happy with.
In the hands of Tyler Styer or Mary Kenniston it's CTE all the way. For Brian Crist it's Poolology. For CJ Wiley, it's TOI.
I wouldn't beat up on or ridicule any of the Big 3. "If you like one of 'em...then by golly use it" is my way of thinking. The old different strokes for different folks concept.
ALL are superior to that idiotic invisible "ghosty ball" thing, IMO. (In 60 years of shooting pool I've never been able to see an invisible ball down there)
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I don't use TOI all the time, but I've noticed the same thing when I do use it. It's not much inside, but it does make the CB behave well. It's kind of a bit of a pivoting system, that inside pivot feels really nice on shots. If anything it gets you tuned into canceling out unintended spin.
As you know, I am a hard core CTE user, but there are a few shots that I've found FOR ME, on certain tables that TOI helps me. TOI is a valuable tool in one way because it is something a player can really SEE....as opposed to Ghosty Ball which requires imagination to "see". In my opinion, "imagining" an invisible ghosty ball will keep you broke over the long run.
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I for one don't imagine a ghost ball. I imagine a pocketing/potting line for the OB and hit it where and how it needs hit. Get the "aim" and play the shot in my head... kind of a how does this need to be hit visualization. With enough shots they should be mostly rote shooting, but you still need to take an aim of some kind to know how you need to hit it. Ghost ball is legit, but anyone imagining/seeing a ghost ball is probably doing themselves a disservice after becoming proficient at pool. At some point you have to feel/see the shot, aiming helps limit the variables.
Since you're very familiar with CTE you can recognize that a touch of something is the same as a pivot. It should feel very natural for CTE users. Pivoting isn't solely the domain of CTE, but if you know the system, you can recognize it elsewhere. Pivoting is best performed with a "touch."
Sounds like you've got a procedure that works for you and is helping you to win games. Which is the idea of competitive pool in the first place.
That certainly sounds okay to me !
That touch of inside is exactly like a small pivot...(I call it a rotation). You're very astute to observe that.
The greatest part of your post (and what thousands of players have understood) is your sentence reading==> aiming helps limit the variables.
That's the whole purpose of aiming systems or "playing" systems, in the first place...to tighten up the success percentages.
Unfortunately my chosen procedure has been held up to such harsh ridicule and derision for so long, I take the bait from the "bashers" and get into back and forths with them.
A very good reason, in my opinion, for Mr. Howerton to just do away with this aiming forum entirely and not even allow the topic to be mentioned on the site. Anyone who broke the peace after that should be banned for about 6 months. That would make some people "back up and idle". That, however, is another matter of discussion though.
You made a good post, Mr. BoogieMan, I salute your wisdom.
The whole aiming forum doesn't need to be banned - only this poison topic. If that happened (please) the trolls who promote it here wouldn't even need to be banned - they'll disappear as soon as their "trigger topic" is gone. It's their only topic.
pj
chgo
You need to be the first one to go....with all your craziness and hatred.
I would celebrate the day you were sent packing.
AMEN TO THAT,ASK HIM HOW MUCH TIME HE PUT IN AT THE TABLE TRYING C T E
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
WHY ARE WE SHOUTING?!!!