APA 9-ball: 7s, 8s and 9s

S

spoons

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I play APA 9-ball here in Chicago. Say what you will about the APA, but I play it for the social aspect, and I have a blast doing it.

I've noticed that there are very few 8s and 9s around here. In fact, I don't think there is currently an 8 or a 9 in all of the central and Northside Chicago APA. I know there are a few in the southern suburbs, but reading posts on here people talk about being an 8 or a 9, and I'm starting to wonder if this is normal?

In our league, we have our share of better shooters who are 7s, and most of them are probably legit 7s. Three of them have been 8s at one time or another, but never for very long. Having been to Vegas and having played in some minis out there, it seems pretty obvious that the actual skill level of the different handicaps varries from region to region. But, it also makes me wonder how that's possible.

Any ideas?
 
One thing about APA.

Some regions play on 9' tables with tough pockets vs others that play on loose-as-a-goose valley barboxes. This IMO makes a pretty significant difference in skill level.

A 7 that is accustomed to playing on tight 9' tables will obviously play better with a very small amount of adjustment on a 7' barbox than someone who is a 7 that plays only on loose barboxes. On a diamond 7 smart table I think the difference would be even more prominent.
 
the regions dictate their own skill levels for the region. so it would depend on your population of your league...i could be a 9 in the middle of nowhere but here in orlando theres alot of good players so im a 7 waiting to get bumped to an 8. the tables also come into play like he was saying above. here we are usually on 8' and power league(6-9) play on the 9' when they are in house where i usually play. i dont know if it changes when they change venue. (traveling league by the way).

apa is all messed up. they dont give any of the money back. they have a tourney twice a year in vegas and spend 100k on prize money. meanwhile there are alot of league members at $25 a year annually and $40 every night per team. then when u do make it to vegas u play on crap unlevel barbox's with cue balls that resemble the worlds first bowling ball from the iron age. they are ripping us off and we need to do something about it.

oh yeah and they dont give out good cues as prizes now either they give out cuetecs and jackets then deduct the value of the item from your winnings. and not the cost of it..they keep what they consider retail. so if u win 5k u get 3.5k and 1.5k worth of crap that youll never use and probably couldnt even pawn
 
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maxeypad2007 said:
One thing about APA.

Some regions play on 9' tables with tough pockets vs others that play on loose-as-a-goose valley barboxes. This IMO makes a pretty significant difference in skill level.

A 7 that is accustomed to playing on tight 9' tables will obviously play better with a very small amount of adjustment on a 7' barbox than someone who is a 7 that plays only on loose barboxes. On a diamond 7 smart table I think the difference would be even more prominent.
Click to expand...


I fall under this category. I played in Cali on 9' w/shimmed pockets. I was an SL7 and sometimes up to an 8, but not for long.

I think that there are some regions that are "sandbag masters".

When I showed up in Vegas, I thought it was sinister how some SL3's were shooting and making masse shots, and getting shape on their next shot.
 
chazdillon said:
the regions dictate their own skill levels for the region. so it would depend on your population of your league...i could be a 9 in the middle of nowhere but here in orlando theres alot of good players so im a 7 waiting to get bumped to an 8. the tables also come into play like he was saying above. here we are usually on 8' and power league(6-9) play on the 9' when they are in house where i usually play. i dont know if it changes when they change venue. (traveling league by the way).

apa is all messed up. they dont give any of the money back. they have a tourney twice a year in vegas and spend 100k on prize money. meanwhile there are alot of league members at $25 a year annually and $40 every night per team. then when u do make it to vegas u play on crap unlevel barbox's with cue balls that resemble the worlds first bowling ball from the iron age. they are ripping us off and we need to do something about it.

oh yeah and they dont give out good cues as prizes now either they give out cuetecs and jackets then deduct the value of the item from your winnings. and not the cost of it..they keep what they consider retail. so if u win 5k u get 3.5k and 1.5k worth of crap that youll never use and probably couldnt even pawn
Click to expand...


I don't think that the OP really wanted to hear all of that. But, when you try to tear something down, be sure and have your facts straight first.

APA's National Tournaments are well over $1.5 MILLION dollar in prize funds. That is AFTER the teams and players that attend that National event have received their TRAVEL FUNDS. In addition to awards that they receive at the local level. Each League Operator runs their area differently so the local payouts may not be the same in each area, but I can assure you there is usually a payout of some sort at the local level. In our area, we have THREE $12,000 guaranteed events each year. $12,000 guaranteed - but they have never paid less than $13,000 (more than advertised). They also give out $3,000 at the LTC and deliver travel funds for airfare, hotel and entry fees for all of the teams going to Nationals. SO PLEASE, don't try to use your real or perceived bad experience with APA to trash a good organization. :mad:

You said, "we need to do something about it". No you don't. If you do not like the way these League Operators run THEIR businesses, what you need to do is not play.:D
 
haha obviously when i said prize money i wasnt including travel pay...any idiot will realize that it cost more than that to get them out there.

as far as other money tourneys guess what we have in the orlando area. ZERO......the league is family operated and they hire from within. there is noone here to govern them. so they dont do anything like they tourneys you are talking about. OH YEAH but we do have a jack and jill with a $50 entry fee. oh and lets not forget the singles events...$30 a shot. by the way your fees at these events pay for the travel and then some. as well as having 16 teams every night m-f at 40 a team. comes out to 640 in dues a night. times 16 weeks in a session 10,240 bucks. a session just in dues. im sure 3 sessions would be around 30,000 just in my room alone a night. times that for the monday-friday and your at about 150,000 a year.

so do u really want to say that they pay out.....it doesnt cost 30,000 to send a team to vegas for 4 days. and thats not including the preliminary events to vegas. im just assuming 1 team from my room will make it to vegas for each night of league...and u know that isnt ever gonna happen

im not expecting them to break even but when i finally win and play on crap tables then the bca comes in right behind us with brand new diamond 7'ers. and some actually pool players other than dr cue. :o) it makes more sense to go for bca. at least they use real equipment and try and better the sport. stick with your apa and maybe one day youll win an allison fisher cuetec. Id rather meet some pros and go home with memories and maybe learn something.

in conclusion. shell out for better equipment and get some names to show up. dr cue does not count. nice guy but i play pool, i want to be a poolplayer. i have enough friends and dont need apa to make more of them for me. provide a decent structured league they do. give back they dont.
 
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spoons said:
I play APA 9-ball here in Chicago. Say what you will about the APA, but I play it for the social aspect, and I have a blast doing it.

I've noticed that there are very few 8s and 9s around here. In fact, I don't think there is currently an 8 or a 9 in all of the central and Northside Chicago APA. I know there are a few in the southern suburbs, but reading posts on here people talk about being an 8 or a 9, and I'm starting to wonder if this is normal?

In our league, we have our share of better shooters who are 7s, and most of them are probably legit 7s. Three of them have been 8s at one time or another, but never for very long. Having been to Vegas and having played in some minis out there, it seems pretty obvious that the actual skill level of the different handicaps varries from region to region. But, it also makes me wonder how that's possible.

Any ideas?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I got invited to play on an APA 9 ball team and I heard there was only one 9 in the area at one point. Maybe that's still the case, I don't know.

In the city here in Chicago, northside, I don't know of any really good players who play nine ball league. The APA league nine ball is still pretty new here. Maybe that has something to do with it.
 
Plenty of good APA players in the Chicago area.

I don't know that I by the regional differences as much as I used to. If its based on ball per inning it would be hard to adjust. But it could be true. If so I think it has to only be a slight adjustment.

Nothing says any area has to have a 9 or a 2 for that matter.

As an APA 9 I quit playing 9ball because it was too hard to find a team that could use me more than a few weeks. Much easier to play in 8ball as a 7.

Now I play in a Masters league but I think its dead after this session.
 
My old house used robertson 9 ft tables with gaffed up, rattling pockets. The pockets looked big, but with they way they are cut, balls rattle if you hit them with any kind of speed. I was playing as a 8 there.

I recently moved my 9 ball team up to hammerheads in Port Richey Fl. It really is only a matter of time until I get raised to a 9. We play league on 7ft diamonds at Hammerheads. Balls dont rattle there. You hit the ball in the hole, it goes, period.

Ay my old house it was taking me about 20 innings average (safeties included) to run my 65 balls. At Hammerheads with the 7ft tables I havent had a match over 13 innings. I knocked one match out in 6 innings with a 4 pack to finish it. I didnt miss a ball.

Needless to say, equipment plays a role in your handicap.

I will probably stop playing in the APA once I become a 9. The 23 rule just makes it impractical to have a 9 on the team at all.

-Bryan
 
I think the better (higher SLs) answered your question...once you get to 7-9 you may start looking at different leagues that don't have the ridiculous 23 cap. If you want to play every week as a 9 you have to suffer thru a couple of matches by 1s or 2s....the 1s-3s end up getting better, and you have to find 1s-3s next session to fill your team to play weekly again. Endless cycle = more teams for the APA. Smart on their part, sucks for you.

There was no possible way that the team we had for Vegas in 2007 could stay together after a GREAT session. Only way to keep an improving team together is to (here's where APA lovers get mad) hide their improvment. Sad, but true. Sometimes the sandbagging is just that, a way to keep your team together....who wants to recruit 2-3 new players EVERY session?? Getting penalized for getting better SUCKS....and yes, I think breaking up teams is getting penalized. Some won't agree, but that's the way I see it.
 
trustyrusty said:
I think the better (higher SLs) answered your question...once you get to 7-9 you may start looking at different leagues that don't have the ridiculous 23 cap. If you want to play every week as a 9 you have to suffer thru a couple of matches by 1s or 2s....the 1s-3s end up getting better, and you have to find 1s-3s next session to fill your team to play weekly again. Endless cycle = more teams for the APA. Smart on their part, sucks for you.

There was no possible way that the team we had for Vegas in 2007 could stay together after a GREAT session. Only way to keep an improving team together is to (here's where APA lovers get mad) hide their improvment. Sad, but true. Sometimes the sandbagging is just that, a way to keep your team together....who wants to recruit 2-3 new players EVERY session?? Getting penalized for getting better SUCKS....and yes, I think breaking up teams is getting penalized. Some won't agree, but that's the way I see it.
Click to expand...
couldnt agree more. i am a 7 in 9 ball and in order for me to be able to shoot i need 3 of the 4 lower numbers to show up. unfortunately they dont take it very seriously and usually only 2 show up. not to mention 1 or 2 always quit each session and i need to recruit new ones. if and when i ever get raised to an 8, that will be the day i stop playing apa 9 ball. the 23 rule in 9 ball is ridiculous considering ratings go up to 9.
 
Eieio59 said:
I don't think that the OP really wanted to hear all of that. But, when you try to tear something down, be sure and have your facts straight first.

APA's National Tournaments are well over $1.5 MILLION dollar in prize funds. That is AFTER the teams and players that attend that National event have received their TRAVEL FUNDS. In addition to awards that they receive at the local level. Each League Operator runs their area differently so the local payouts may not be the same in each area, but I can assure you there is usually a payout of some sort at the local level. In our area, we have THREE $12,000 guaranteed events each year. $12,000 guaranteed - but they have never paid less than $13,000 (more than advertised). They also give out $3,000 at the LTC and deliver travel funds for airfare, hotel and entry fees for all of the teams going to Nationals. SO PLEASE, don't try to use your real or perceived bad experience with APA to trash a good organization. :mad:

You said, "we need to do something about it". No you don't. If you do not like the way these League Operators run THEIR businesses, what you need to do is not play.:D
Click to expand...

Puuuulease! Spare us all with the BS. Don't forget to mention getting TAXED on the winnings & prizes if you win over a certain amount. AND the rooms paid for are split between the team meaning the team shacks up crampted in a few rooms. Most people who have spouses end up paying extra to have a normal stay there in a single room.

As for skill levels varying you will more than likely see that in any handicap league you play in across the country. Levels of play are just different in different regions.
 
Eieio59 said:
If you do not like the way these League Operators run THEIR businesses, what you need to do is not play.:D
Click to expand...

Excellent advise.

APA = Ben Dover :angry:
BCAPL = :thumbup:

Courtney
 
I have to agree on skill level varying due to the region that you live in. I am currently a 7 in 8-ball, and a 9 in 9-ball, but truly believe that if I lived in a different region that I would not be at my current APA skill level. I live in Virginia now. Having played with all of my fellow league members, I'm sorry to say that our skill levels are heavily inflated.

I used to live in Nebraska, and there I was a only playing 8-ball at the time (there was no 9-ball league yet) I was a skill level 6 and even though I was still considered an above average player, I knew that I would have more than my hands full playing against the 7's in that area. Those guys had no mercy, and if I missed, I might as well get the rack ready. I remember losing a match one time playing against a 7, the race was 5-4. I lost the lag by what seemed to by a millimeter, but by the end it would feel like a mile. He beat me 5-0 in 0 innings. He broke and ran out the set. I had my white racking gloves on that day!! He wasn't even at the level of the best 7's in that area, but I was accustomed to that high level of play.

Here on the other hand, it's so watered down that if I didn't love playing so much, enjoy spending time with friends and introducing new players to this game, I would not play in the APA. I have been to Vegas as both a player and a referee, and have seen first hand how the players from different regions play, and I can honestly say that any player from my area would not stand a chance with a player from the Baltimore area, Florida, or Chicago. No disrespect to the other area's but those area's just stood out to me at the National event.
 
trustyrusty said:
I think the better (higher SLs) answered your question...once you get to 7-9 you may start looking at different leagues that don't have the ridiculous 23 cap.
Click to expand...

Good point. That would explain why there are so few who stick around.

And, it makes sense that equipment will influence the skill levels, but I didn't realize that 9-ball handicaps were based on balls per inning. What would be a typical 8 or 9's balls per inning?

I suppose the regional difference could be attributed to competition cannibalizing itself. If it's harder to move up when you lose, and you're prone to losing more often in certain regions than others, then it would make sense that tougher regions would have overall lower handicaps for the same level of actual play.

I suppose it's worth mentioning that I'm not asking anyone to divulge trade secrets or anything. I'm just curious, and I know that there are people out there who have been around the APA long enough to have a pretty good handle on these things.
 
mongoose- said:
Puuuulease! Spare us all with the BS. Don't forget to mention getting TAXED on the winnings & prizes if you win over a certain amount. AND the rooms paid for are split between the team meaning the team shacks up crampted in a few rooms. Most people who have spouses end up paying extra to have a normal stay there in a single room.

As for skill levels varying you will more than likely see that in any handicap league you play in across the country. Levels of play are just different in different regions.
Click to expand...

First, you are only taxed on your winnings PER THE IRS. The League Operators are bound by law to tax you if you win over $600. Again... by law. If you don't want to be taxed, then don't win.

Usually teams are informed on what their room situation will be by the league operator prior to going to Vegas. Most put you in 2 or 3 rooms for the length of the stay. It is intended that the MEMBERS OF THE TEAM occupy those rooms.........you truly can't be insinuating that the league should pay the expenses to bring and room the spouses in Vegas, are you?:rolleyes:

Again, you should know what you are playing for and if you don't like it, you should choose not to play.:D
 
chazdillon said:
haha obviously when i said prize money i wasnt including travel pay...any idiot will realize that it cost more than that to get them out there.

as far as other money tourneys guess what we have in the orlando area. ZERO......the league is family operated and they hire from within. there is noone here to govern them. so they dont do anything like they tourneys you are talking about. OH YEAH but we do have a jack and jill with a $50 entry fee. oh and lets not forget the singles events...$30 a shot. by the way your fees at these events pay for the travel and then some. as well as having 16 teams every night m-f at 40 a team. comes out to 640 in dues a night. times 16 weeks in a session 10,240 bucks. a session just in dues. im sure 3 sessions would be around 30,000 just in my room alone a night. times that for the monday-friday and your at about 150,000 a year.

so do u really want to say that they pay out.....it doesnt cost 30,000 to send a team to vegas for 4 days. and thats not including the preliminary events to vegas. im just assuming 1 team from my room will make it to vegas for each night of league...and u know that isnt ever gonna happen

im not expecting them to break even but when i finally win and play on crap tables then the bca comes in right behind us with brand new diamond 7'ers. and some actually pool players other than dr cue. :o) it makes more sense to go for bca. at least they use real equipment and try and better the sport. stick with your apa and maybe one day youll win an allison fisher cuetec. Id rather meet some pros and go home with memories and maybe learn something.

in conclusion. shell out for better equipment and get some names to show up. dr cue does not count. nice guy but i play pool, i want to be a poolplayer. i have enough friends and dont need apa to make more of them for me. provide a decent structured league they do. give back they dont.
Click to expand...
I have a suggestion for ya......
Quit playing APA if you don't like it!!!!
90% of the players play because it's a fun night out for them; not because they're trying to get better or win money.
As far as the equipment they play on in higher level tournaments, you have to realize, everybodys playing on the same tables and the better player will usually adjust faster to the conditions.
So quit your whining about the APA. I'm tired of everybody bashing the APA.
 
trustyrusty said:
I think the better (higher SLs) answered your question...once you get to 7-9 you may start looking at different leagues that don't have the ridiculous 23 cap. If you want to play every week as a 9 you have to suffer thru a couple of matches by 1s or 2s....the 1s-3s end up getting better, and you have to find 1s-3s next session to fill your team to play weekly again. Endless cycle = more teams for the APA. Smart on their part, sucks for you.

There was no possible way that the team we had for Vegas in 2007 could stay together after a GREAT session. Only way to keep an improving team together is to (here's where APA lovers get mad) hide their improvment. Sad, but true. Sometimes the sandbagging is just that, a way to keep your team together....who wants to recruit 2-3 new players EVERY session?? Getting penalized for getting better SUCKS....and yes, I think breaking up teams is getting penalized. Some won't agree, but that's the way I see it.
Click to expand...

the 23 rule is tough but without it there would be maybe half of the teams. Not due to good teams breaking up but because of bad teams quitting. The 23 rule keeps teams from becoming stacked and then staying together.
There will always be teams in the APA that are not as serious or just don't have the drive to win. Those teams would quit if one or two teams were loaded.
If the limit were 25 or 26 imagine how good of teams players could make and even with players raising the team could stay together dominating.

It would be foolish to think that 5 SL7s should be allowed or even 3-4 on one team. Leveling the playing field is a must for survival. Teams need to be aware of this and plan for it. Should any team really expect to remain the same forever or even for a few years?
 
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desmocourtney said:
Excellent advise.

APA = Ben Dover :angry:
BCAPL = :thumbup:

Courtney
Click to expand...

Try playing BCA as a not so good player. You get to pay to lose every night. Thats not exactly fun.
While I like the BCA I don't really consider the BCA a pool league. Its not a national system and many different formats exist across the country. Its a great ORG and has a great national tourney but offers very little to weaker players or even to mediocre players in a some areas.

A while back I stopped playing BCA just due to lack of competition. Most of the better players in my area did not play. Our team won and I actually felt like we were damaging the league as players were quitting. No one wants to go play league and hate it due to the inability to compete.

Other BCA nights might be different.

It always amazes me that people are upset that the APA profits. Wonder how they feel about Bottled Water companies or computer companies or oil companies or furniture companies. Heck everyone just about owns a cell phone and you can bet real high that their profit margin is triple the APAs.

Play to have fun and do something that you like to do whether its the BCA or APA or any other league. I can't get upset that I choose to like a hobby with little return.
 
ANT812

If your a SL7 in 9ball you have tons of different lineups to make the 23 rule. You can only play two players higher than a 6 anyway so why have a bunch over 6 on the team?
Its really only an issue when you get to the 9 level. You just have to plan your team and adjust. Players come and go regardless of whether they are getting better or not. Cant really expect a team to stay together that long.

Brozif
You dont think that you could be better now? Also its hard to judge anything against the 7 level with it having no ceiling. Guys breaking and running sets to 5 is not normal. Hard to consider that a normal SL7.
Give yourself a little credit for playing better and go up against the better 7s tough. Don't be intimidated by them. I win or having an easier time in many matches just due to my opponets outlook on the match. They see SL7 and automatically figure that they are loosing.
 
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