APA, BCA, TAP: How much do they earn and are worth??

[iba7467]

tap, tap, tap! As a former APA L.O., I can tell you for certain, that 99.9% of the people who post negatively on these kinds of threads have NO CLUE about how an APA franchise operates. First, and foremost, it's about keeping your players happy. If you're not a happy player, you'll find a different league to play in...or not play at all. You cannot compare APA to BCA or TAP. They are nothing alike. Every league has it pros and cons...but it begins (and usually ends) with the local operator.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I have said numerous times that I have played in the APA league for a number of years. My posts have not been meant as a negative connotation. The point is that the league is a business for the operator (a profitable one for every one I have seen) and entertainment for it's members.

Regardless of what area a player is from, I seriously doubt anyone plays in the APA or any league for that matter for the money split amongst team members. Who would do that. You pay $300 during the year to take a week off work to go to Vegas. If you beat hundreds of other teams and win at nationals you get $25,000 divided among 8 players. This comes to $3125. Assuming you claim it on your taxes you receive $2,031 less the $300 spent to net $1,731.

My point is really that you are paying a fee to play competitive pool and meet new people. It is a great concept and works well. The operator makes money (some areas a good deal) and the players have a good time. No harm, no foul. It's a mutually-beneficial relationship.

 

[iba7467]

This doesn't answer my previous question, a question I have now asked twice.

To respond to this post, however, people can sell their businesses for whatever they want if they can find a buyer. The "average" sale might just be 6 times EBIT, but that doesn't hold me to anything. I have the choice to sell my business for that amount or not to sell.

Not everyone is looking to sell their business. You can make me a ridiculous offer today, but if I'm not interested in selling it for that ridiculous price, it doesn't mean it is worth that amount.

I guarantee you 6 times EBIT is far above "average". I am uncertain what your previous question was as I have tried to respond to each. If you read my last post, you will see my entire outlook on leagues - which I play in myself. You are entirely correct that an independently owned business (one that is profitable and sustainable) is worth the greater of what someone is willing to pay for it or what the owner is willing to sell it for (kind of like a work of art). My point is that if it isn't financially worth it (as in the case above), there are at least two people who overestimate the value (the attempted buyer and the non-seller).

 

[APA LO]

I haven't punched a clock in years and my pay is directly related to profits (not revenues). I calculate everyday value-added operations, profitability, market share, and cost-of-quality.

As an APA member in the league for five years, I can promise you that not a single cent of league revenue money was paid to any team/individual without the direct intention of using the money to go to Vegas.

This payout is also void if the team does not go to Vegas and is defaulted to the runner-up. There are two other posters on this forum that played in the same league and saw the same payouts. Feel free to check on it. The operator has not once had an added $ or free event either. The only reward aside from the cash which must be used to go to Vegas is one plaque per player of the winning team of each session (yes, these cost money but you can bet all you want that it doesn't bring the payout above 10%).

Well, I managed to get you to, at the very least, include more prizes that the LO in that area does pay for, which actually makes it pretty obvious that you left that out to make this person look bad. How much else is being left out, I wonder?

 

[Scott Lee]

Sean...Exactly how many franchise areas have you investigated, to come up with your "rampant in the APA" statement? You make extreme generalizations, like "all girls who wear short skirts and low-cut blouses are asking to be raped". You cannot possibly have enough information to make that statement...although it is made all the time (inaccurately), by disgruntled league players. There is sandbagging in all leagues, where there is any kind of handicap system. In the APA it can only happen in two circumstances...either both teams playing allow it to go on, with no notification; or the league operator doesn't care. I have a very difficult time believing that the majority of the 200+ league operators don't care.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

However, what you have glossed over was item #1 in my previous post. Other leagues have minimized the practice of sandbagging, but it's rampant in the APA. While the APA definitely gets the nod for bringing a lion's feast of new players to the billiards industry, it also gets the "whinced eyebrow grimace" for discouraging a lot of players that've gained enough experience in league play to know something's afoul (sandbagging).

-Sean

 

[iba7467]

Well, I managed to get you to, at the very least, include more prizes that the LO in that area does pay for, which actually makes it pretty obvious that you left that out to make this person look bad. How much else is being left out, I wonder?

Not totally true. I actually estimated $2,000 for trophies originally, but I admit I have never purchase 200 plaques/trophies so I didn't want to unfairly undervalue his costs. Please don't question my integrity as I have not questioned his or yours. It is his business and the cost is set at a price point which the market will bare, so what. It doesn't make him a bad person - nor does me pointing it out make me one.

Again, if you are seriously interested, I can put you in contact with many other people that can verify the payouts in this league.

 

[Scott Lee]

Show me a business (ANY business) that is not profitable, and I'll show you one that will be out of business in a short time.

The last IRS tax tables I checked, someone earning an extra $3K does not fall into the 30% tax bracket (unless their income is already $100K+...and most of those do not pay 30%). Talk to an accountant.

People do not play in the APA with the expectation of making money...ANY money. It is NOT a money league, and never has been. BTW, how many teams did your L.O. send to Vegas? Out of 247, IIRC he/she would be eligible to send about 10 teams. From your numbers, it sounds like they send 3 or 4...and if that's the case, that's b.s., imo. If the local operator is skimping on sending teams to nationals, that is an issue that should be dealt with amongst the local players, and the national office. I don't know how it is now, but when I was an L.O., APA Corporate, according to the franchise agreement, could TAKE AWAY your franchise, if you continually screwed the membership in your franchise area.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

The point is that the league is a business for the operator (a profitable one for every one I have seen) and entertainment for it's members.

You pay $300 during the year to take a week off work to go to Vegas. If you beat hundreds of other teams and win at nationals you get $25,000 divided among 8 players. This comes to $3125. Assuming you claim it on your taxes you receive $2,031 less the $300 spent to net $1,731.

My point is really that you are paying a fee to play competitive pool and meet new people. It is a great concept and works well. The operator makes money (some areas a good deal) and the players have a good time. No harm, no foul. It's a mutually-beneficial relationship.

 

[APA LO]

Again, if you are seriously interested, I can put you in contact with many other people that can verify the payouts in this league.

I am seriously interested. But, how about PMing me with the name of the LO. I'd prefer to go directly to the source if I'm to spend any more time on this.

 

[iba7467]

Show me a business (ANY business) that is not profitable, and I'll show you one that will be out of business in a short time.

The last IRS tax tables I checked, someone earning an extra $3K does not fall into the 30% tax bracket (unless their income is already $100K+...and most of those do not pay 30%). Talk to an accountant.

People do not play in the APA with the expectation of making money...ANY money. It is NOT a money league, and never has been. BTW, how many teams did your L.O. send to Vegas? Out of 247, IIRC he/she would be eligible to send about 10 teams. From your numbers, it sounds like they send 3 or 4...and if that's the case, that's b.s., imo. If the local operator is skimping on sending teams to nationals, that is an issue that should be dealt with amongst the local players, and the national office. I don't know how it is now, but when I was an L.O., APA Corporate, according to the franchise agreement, could TAKE AWAY your franchise, if you continually screwed the membership in your franchise area.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Not to get into tax brackets, but my bring home is 65% (and this is purely taxes, does not include insurance/401K- you are right after deductions last year I got to keep an extra 8%)

The area sent 7 teams. Eight ball 4 teams, nine ball 3 teams. $3500 per team.

 

[APA LO]

I am seriously interested. But, how about PMing me with the name of the LO. I'd prefer to go directly to the source if I'm to spend any more time on this.

Still waiting for that PM.

 

[iba7467]

Still waiting for that PM.

PM sent; sorry, had to work a little bit.

 

[APA LO]

PM received. Thank you.

 

[sfleinen]

Sean...Exactly how many franchise areas have you investigated, to come up with your "rampant in the APA" statement? You make extreme generalizations, like "all girls who wear short skirts and low-cut blouses are asking to be raped". You cannot possibly have enough information to make that statement...although it is made all the time (inaccurately), by disgruntled league players. There is sandbagging in all leagues, where there is any kind of handicap system. In the APA it can only happen in two circumstances...either both teams playing allow it to go on, with no notification; or the league operator doesn't care. I have a very difficult time believing that the majority of the 200+ league operators don't care.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott:

First, I want you to know that you're one of the frequent posters I enjoy reading. I respect your knowledge and great writing skills, and look forward to your posts in the future.

Having said that, I need to tell you that you're over the top with your off-base, exaggerated analogy to "all girls who wear short skirts and low-cut blouses are asking to be raped." Where in the world did that come from? My comment related to sandbagging in the APA is from *personal* experience from not only myself, but the large circle of friends I play with, that come from at least five different APA franchise areas (a couple franchises not even close to my area -- these players had relocated to my area, due to job requirements, from the Midwest and the West coast). I won't get into specifics, but I happen to run a non-APA league myself, and it has a large number of ex-APA members -- from the aforementioned franchise areas, and *all* have the same complaint. Many of these players either currently do or at some point played in other leagues (e.g. BCAPL), and all acknowledge that this problem is greatly minimized as compared to the APA.

Scott, all I did was regurgitate what appears to be a "common" reputation. Although it was the very first time that I personally posted this related to the APA, this issue keeps coming up in these forums, so wouldn't you agree there has to be a *reason* why this reputation exists, beyond just disgruntled current and former players? You may have been a stellar LO, and I'm sure many of these ex-APA players would've appreciated playing in your league. But one stellar LO does not a league system make.

I believe in friendly and civil discussion, even in topics that I've passionate feelings about. So please, let's knock it off with the off-base and greatly exaggerated analogies, OK?

Olive branch?
-Sean

 

[Fatboy]

Here's my old area's APA breakdown:

246 teams x $30 per week * 42 weeks played = $309,960
$309960 - 20% to APA for licensing = $247,968
$247,968 - $26,500 cash and trophies paid to teams going to Vegas = $221,468 - $1,889 years gas for making three trips to every location each week = $219,579

Income: $219,579 paid to the operator for making 10,332 scoresheets; entering 1,230 data sets; 336 hours driving time; and fielding phone at least four phone calls per week.

Seems like a pretty solid deal to me. The only problem is starting up the league does not earn these revenues.

I'm not a league player and dont know alot about it, but I did talk to a LO in a big city-I wont say where but he has ALOT of teams, a zillion-perhaps the biggest on the east coast, he makes well over $100,000/yr no doubt, he has teams in alot of big rooms 7 days a week. It took him years to build it up and he works 4-60 hours a week not including time in the pool rooms. He earns his $$$ for sure. None of us work for free-I cant hate the guy no matter what he makes, he is bringing alot of new players into pool which helps the manufactors, rooms, new fish for us to rob , etc. he isnt robbing any of the players, I met and spoke to alot of them and they are having fun. Its good for everyone-we need that in LA, pool is done there 20,000,000 people and 400 pool players-sad. Leagues are good for pool and the guys who work it desreve the $$$. It aint easy $$$. If it was I'd do it.

 

[Fatboy]

I have said numerous times that I have played in the APA league for a number of years. My posts have not been meant as a negative connotation. The point is that the league is a business for the operator (a profitable one for every one I have seen) and entertainment for it's members.

Regardless of what area a player is from, I seriously doubt anyone plays in the APA or any league for that matter for the money split amongst team members. Who would do that. You pay $300 during the year to take a week off work to go to Vegas. If you beat hundreds of other teams and win at nationals you get $25,000 divided among 8 players. This comes to $3125. Assuming you claim it on your taxes you receive $2,031 less the $300 spent to net $1,731.

My point is really that you are paying a fee to play competitive pool and meet new people. It is a great concept and works well. The operator makes money (some areas a good deal) and the players have a good time. No harm, no foul. It's a mutually-beneficial relationship.

Exactly, i should have quoted this post in my above post!!!!

best regards

Fatboy :smile:

 

[Alex Kanapilly]

Sean...Exactly how many franchise areas have you investigated, to come up with your "rampant in the APA" statement? You make extreme generalizations, like "all girls who wear short skirts and low-cut blouses are asking to be raped". You cannot possibly have enough information to make that statement...although it is made all the time (inaccurately), by disgruntled league players. There is sandbagging in all leagues, where there is any kind of handicap system. In the APA it can only happen in two circumstances...either both teams playing allow it to go on, with no notification; or the league operator doesn't care. I have a very difficult time believing that the majority of the 200+ league operators don't care.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

It has been my experience that APA teams regularly sandbag. I played in APA leagues in Champaign/Urbana, St. Louis, Chicago and Denver. I have not played in APA leagues for about 10 years now but I still play with people that do play in APA leagues and from what I hear, things haven't changed all that much.

I play in a dual sanctioned league now (VNEA and BCA) and have for a few years. There is no sandbagging that I know of, honestly. The systems are set up differently.

I honestly believe if you set up a competitive APA team trying to do well in regional or national events, you run into premeditated, intentional sandbagging. I'm sure that doesn't hold true for the recreational teams as much as it does for the competitive teams.

Other than that, I think APA is a great introduction to organized pool for recreational players. I know some very good players around here that still play in the APA leagues so they can play in the larger tournaments. I think the LO's around Denver do a good job in keeping the interest up.

 

[rodrivar]

I have to say it is definately different in other areas. I played apa in jacksonville for 3 years, I was a skill lvl 5 in 8 ball and I never noticed any sandbagging. I play in san diego now as a skl lvl 6 and I have only seen one guy that I knew was sandbagging. And I have never seen him win any of the bigger tournemants.
Anyways, I do agree that I dont like the format of the APA, specially the slop rule. But I believe that it does a lot for pool, specially in the san diego area. Pool in Cali is crap and san diego is about the best there is.

 

[mongoose-]

Oh my.

I believe I've had to explain how ridiculous your math was at least once before. May I ask if you have ever owned a business of your own? I'd ask how much accounting experience you have, but it's pretty obvious that you are lacking based on your calculations above.

If you honestly believe that an LO makes that kind of money running a league, why on Earth have you not purchased an APA franchise? I couldn't imagine anyone not wanting to turn such little work into a nearly a quarter of a million dollar business (based on your calculations). Heck, Warren Buffett would be wise to start up an APA league based on your figures.

I don't mean to be harsh, but people need to be embarrassed when they attempt to calculate someone's income when they are clearly not equipped to do so.

Why don't you just tell us that 5-2= 4 since it wouldn't be any more accurate than your post above.

Well why don't you tell us all about the real figures or do you hide that like everything else in the APA such as a basic answer to what is considered a pro player. APA is a racket.. LO's attempt to strong arm other leagues in my area so I would seriously doubt Iba is too far off.

 

[JB Cases]

Sandbagging in the APA is a given. It almost has to be this way in order for a team to maintain a core group of players even for a season's play.

The APA's handicapping system is both it's greatest asset and also the source of it's greatest criticism.

There is no doubt however that this system is what is attractive to the new players with low skill levels.

Probably what the APA really needs to do is to raise the cap on the fielded player's combined handicaps.

The thread however is about what the leagues are worth. I assumed that the question was a general one aimed at discerning what the whole thing is worth, not individual franchises.

One thing I think of is that leagues are still a growth market. I personally think that almost all areas of the United States could sustain more league players and leagues for them to play in. I think that the leagues can expand even further throughout the world, as the VNEA has done in Europe, the APA has done in Japan, and the BCA in Europe.

I'd really love to see German style leagues take hold in the USA. This is where they play 8 Ball, 9 Ball, and 14.1 in a league match.

I think leagues are one of the really good social ways to play pool competitively and share the costs so it's not too expensive.

What are the leagues worth? Well I am sure Mark Griffin (The owner of the BCA Pool League) won't come forth with any numbers but I bet he has an excel spreadsheet or two with some pretty telling figures.

 

[APA LO]

Well why don't you tell us all about the real figures or do you hide that like everything else in the APA such as a basic answer to what is considered a pro player. APA is a racket.. LO's attempt to strong arm other leagues in my area so I would seriously doubt Iba is too far off.

It's pretty clear you have already formed your opinion of APA, and knowing my salary probably isn't going to change it, so I think I'll save that info for someone who can still be saved. But, thanks for asking.

 

[Scott Lee]

Fair enough, Sean. I am probably a little more sensitive than some, because of my intimate knowledge of APA, and the fact that, like JB and others, I think, overall, APA has done a good job of growing the amateur side of the sport. Many of the other competitive leagues owe their growth to APA...some even for reasons you name.

As it happens, I was what I consider to be a 'stellar' L.O. (I won a national award as the top new league operator of the year). My 600 players were very happy, and played honestly. The truth is my league was small enough so that I knew every player...and nobody could get away with sandbagging. That certainly gets more difficult as your league size approaches several hundred teams. That said, the system does allow for monitoring, and adjustments or penalties, for trying to get around the 'system'.

I agree with you, that the same complaints are lodged continually here. I also believe it is mostly the same group of posters who make the complaints. There are 250,000 players in APA every year. I would hazard a guess that less than 5% make the complaints that are mentioned...they are, however, a vocal group (even so, the anti-APA posters here number in the dozens at best...with almost an equal number of satisfied APA members). That is still 1000's of unhappy players nationally, and those are, by-in-large, the ones that migrate to other leagues (and seem to post here on these kind of threads).

Here's the ultimate truth Sean...there are appx. 4,000,000 frequent regular poolplayers (meaning at least weekly play), just in this country. All of the organized leagues together capture only about 10% of that (APA has a 50% market share of this group). Until someone comes up with something better, that can reach that other 90%, amateur pool will stay in the doldrums, with subsequent trickle-down effects for the professional players, as well.

Oh...and olive branch accepted!:grin:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott:

First, I want you to know that you're one of the frequent posters I enjoy reading. I respect your knowledge and great writing skills, and look forward to your posts in the future.

Having said that, I need to tell you that you're over the top with your off-base, exaggerated analogy to "all girls who wear short skirts and low-cut blouses are asking to be raped." Where in the world did that come from? My comment related to sandbagging in the APA is from *personal* experience from not only myself, but the large circle of friends I play with, that come from at least five different APA franchise areas (a couple franchises not even close to my area -- these players had relocated to my area, due to job requirements, from the Midwest and the West coast). I won't get into specifics, but I happen to run a non-APA league myself, and it has a large number of ex-APA members -- from the aforementioned franchise areas, and *all* have the same complaint. Many of these players either currently do or at some point played in other leagues (e.g. BCAPL), and all acknowledge that this problem is greatly minimized as compared to the APA.

Scott, all I did was regurgitate what appears to be a "common" reputation. Although it was the very first time that I personally posted this related to the APA, this issue keeps coming up in these forums, so wouldn't you agree there has to be a *reason* why this reputation exists, beyond just disgruntled current and former players? You may have been a stellar LO, and I'm sure many of these ex-APA players would've appreciated playing in your league. But one stellar LO does not a league system make.

I believe in friendly and civil discussion, even in topics that I've passionate feelings about. So please, let's knock it off with the off-base and greatly exaggerated analogies, OK?

Olive branch?
-Sean