APA Captain Strategy

California Fats

California Fats

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was wondering if anyone here has experience as a captain. This is my first time in the APA, and as we get ready for our second match, I am giving a lot of thought to the strategy of matching up players.

Is it better to match lower rated players against higher players? Should I try to play people "even" if possible? Is purposely picking a higher skill level to play against a lower rating smart to do?

What was your strategy, and what was the outcome?

NOTE: We are playing 9-Ball
 
You will get a wide variety of answers on this topic, and they all can be correct.

Myself, I try to match up as evenly as makes sense most of the time, during the session. Playoffs are a different matter.

I want to win, and I want my players to have a good time, too. Throwing a beginner SL2 up against a 7 or 8 all the time is gonna discourage them, in my opinion. Also, I am of the attitude that "my guys are gonna beat your guys" so I try to match up accordingly, close to the same skill level. Myself, I like "playing up" and so do many others, so you need to take this into account in your lineup and match up decisions.

Of course, that doesn't always work out, as other teams don't always have the same philosophy, so they throw off. And sometimes the players available can dictate match ups, too. If you don't have the mix to do it, there's nothing you can do, so you make the best choice out of the lineup you plan to play.

Good luck!
 
There is a plethora of things to consider and being new you won't likely have enough information (yet) as to what is the best matchups to do. I will give you a list of considerations to watch for and use as you gain more information from your weekly matches. So of the items you can learn pretty quickly, such as #1 below.

1. How well do certain players perform early or late in the match. Some people work early and should not be held for late in the match. Are some of them in a rush and need time to relax? Do some tend to get drunk throughout the night and what affect does it have on that player? These are pretty important considerations in your plan. Regardless of who they are playing you want them to be able to play their best.

2. How well do your players play against opposit sex, does it matter? Again, can be very important. Some guys just don't play women well at all.

3. Do your players do better against stronger players or are do they feel overwhelmed? Conversely do you have players that hate the handicap (ball spot in 9 ball) or not.

4. Is there something on TV such as a sporting event that will hold their interest more so than the pool match? If so dodging that would be best.

5. Until you learn all of these things, you want to test all scenarios. Play each player even, up, and down. Play them against women, men, late in the match or early in the match.

The session tends to be around 14 weeks give or take, and that provides about 8 weeks to feel out your team and then 6 weeks to make a move to get qualified for higher level play (ie. trying to go to Los Vegas). You team should be within range of the first couple places regardless of matchups after 8 weeks. If it is not, then your roster will need some adjustment for the next session and you will have enough information to know who is and who isn't valuable AND reliable. an APA team really needs both.

A captains job is not easy, as not only do you have matchups to consider but also who can attend each week. There is skill level adjustments that can force certain roster configurations and dealing with that can be an issue.
 
From my short time playing 9-ball in the APA. It seems better to match up even or match your player up to a player one level higher.

A four matching up with a five needs 6 balls less to win. Teach them some defensive shots and you will have a great underdog player.
 
Great suggestions by boyers! I play APA 8-Ball. I am not my team's captain but am good friends with him. He is a FAR better captain than he is a player. He is extraordinarily intelligent and has won many matches for us based purely on his strategy. We discuss his thought process A LOT. He also knows all of the rules and has an uncanny ability to know even the most obscure rule in the book. Its almost freakish how good he is as a captain. Unfortunately however, there is no one way to go about developing a game plan. You can have a strategy on paper for all five matches before you begin which is usually what our captain does, but it can change before the match even begins if any of your team's or their team's players are late getting to the match. He creates a few variations of the pairings depending on first of all who wins the coin flip, what players the opponent puts up first, etc, etc. This is all well and good but can change mid-match based on the score at that point, who's in handicap trouble or such. He keeps copies of all prior scoresheets as reference and also keeps stats in a spreadsheet on our team's players and all other players in the league to develop a sort of "book" on all of our opponents. For example, Player such-and-such on our opponent tonight is 1-3 lifetime against so and so player from our team, does not play many defensive shots, generally doesn't break well, lets his emotions get the best of him while playing and can't be counted on when the match is on the line. ;)
 
As I said, more good stuff. :p

The one thing you can't rush is experience, so until you're used to your players, and the other players in the league, you can't make a lot of the more advanced planning decisions.

Knowing who your players usually do well against, and those that they struggle with, can make a big difference. If your league is anything like ours, the majority of the players have played for some time, and we all know each other pretty well. Certain matchups just work better than others, and certain personalities clash with others...you are managing people often times. And even with all of that, sometimes you can't avoid it! :)

And sometimes we overthink it, too. At least I do....

At the end of all this, try to make sure you're having fun. If it stops being fun, this captain stuff can become very tiresome. Again, good luck!

(A spreadsheet with past matchup history....wow. and I thought I was into this a lot)
 
Great responses, thank you! For now, I will try to match everyone either even or one skill level below. I was on a team with 4 of my guys in a different league, so now it's a matter of feeling out our new girls (no pun intended)

How long does it take for skill ratings to be accurate? We got mowed over in our first match since 3 of our players are beginners, and had to start at a higher level.
 
justadub said:
(A spreadsheet with past matchup history....wow. and I thought I was into this a lot)
Click to expand...

Yeah dub like I said its freakish. Its like he found his calling in life being the captain of an APA pool team. :D He also has this uncanny knack for knowing exactly what to say and when to say it to motivate his players and pick them up when they're down or on the ropes. He has also not once failed to mail in the paperwork to get that extra bonus point each week. :wink:
 
California Fats said:
How long does it take for skill ratings to be accurate? We got mowed over in our first match since 3 of our players are beginners, and had to start at a higher level.
Click to expand...

It can happen quickly or it can be a while if its managed. I am C/C+ speed player and I lasted two sessions before becoming a SL6 when I started as a 4 after never having played APA before. :wink:
 
We have a couple of 3's that can't beat most other 3's. Usually we just live with the goose egg but if we get one point we're happy, it's not life or death after all.

Other times if the higher rated match ups aren't great for our other players we try to burn the 3 against the other teams 6 or 7 since the result is the same for us and we hope to pick up the points against their lower rated players.

We don't do it very often because, as was written earlier, it's tough to put people in a position that they have no realistic chance to even win a game, much less the match.

Good luck with your team!
 
We have a SL3 on our 9ball team that drinks scotch and get drunker as the night goes on. I like to play him first and he has a very good record. So if I win the coin toss I put up first and play him. The other team will put up one of their weaker players. By putting up first I potentially control both the 4th and 5th match, given that the rule of 23 may limit the other teams flexibility toward the end. If I know I want a specific strong player from my team to play a specific strong player from their team, this strategy often works. The stronger players usually play late.
 
Like some have said, there's more to it than just skill levels. You need to just play, try different combinations and keep track of your teammates and opponents over time.

On my team, there are two male players who fall apart playing the opposite sex, the cuter the opponent, the worse they play. Another player is a 4 who plays always plays to the opponents level, so he does well against higher-ranked players, but has trouble with lower-skilled opponents. I myself hate playing slow players, so I try to match myself up with someone who doesn't take a minute to shoot every shot.

One other thing is get to know your opponents. A lot of good players try to go for everything and never play safe, so I like to put up my low skills against them and they often win. Against strong opponents that like to play safe, you need someone who knows the cushions and can kick out of safeties.
 
You need to be aware of your competition. This is important to protect your players handicap rating. I'm not saying have them sandbag, but you don't want your good 3 to play a 6 and win, and then next week he's a 4. Its ok to have a player lose a match, so long as the other players win enough to win for the night. I would also have your best player play the 3rd match (esp. during playoff times). A good captain knows the rules (even the bylaws) so you can prevent any issues that may come down the line. Have a good co-captain, cause you can't be everywhere all the time. Make sure everyone is having fun, or you'll go through players like running water. Communication with your players is key for that.
 
I had a team with a bunch of friends maybe 2 or 3 years into playing. I got tired of hearing people complain about who threw who and so on. The next session, I went right down the list, each person getting their turn at throwing players each week. We high-pointed in 8 and 9 that session and everybody felt more a part of the team and were a bit more thoughtful when it came time to put up. Sometimes you never know what's going to happen. On the other hand, if you desperately need points, don't be afraid to go for a shut-out situation(high player vs very low, 8b anyhow).
 
This is what I've picked up, your mileage may vary.

- Better to let the other team put up first, so you can pick the best possible 'counter' to their choice.

- Mostly the handicapping does a pretty good job of keeping everyone close to a 50% win rate.
At least in my experience. The exceptions are very high numbers or very low numbers.
For example my team, 6 out of 8 players are between 50-55%. The two exceptions are a 1
(much lower) and a 9 (much higher).

So my theory is... for most ranks you can't really affect the win rate much by just rearranging
who they get to shoot. They're gonna gravitate towards that 50% no matter what and often
the handicap will come into play. So your main goal is to manage those exceptions.
We try to find matches where the 1 has at least a puncher's chance. Meaning we
look for her to play 1's, 2's, maybe a weak 3.

Some people feel the best option is to "throw off" the 1's and 2's against high ranks
like 9's with the theory that the 9's gonna win anyway. If the 9 is, I dunno, Earl Strickland,
maybe that's true. But weaker 9's can be beat by almost any rank due to the spot and rolls.

I see no advantage to any strategy that revolves around "let's just assume our player will lose".
The goal is to give EVERY player the best possible shot at winning.

- Some players just have a guy that is in their head. We have a 6 that has lost to a certain other 6
4 times in a row. We just don't put him into that match anymore even though he begs us to give him
one more shot. He does great otherwise, and the other 6 loses plenty otherwise.

- Some guys have to be put up early because they get too drunk to shoot later.
 
This leads back to the "throw first or second" decision on the coin flip.

I used to always choose second, but the last couple years we've switched to throwing first, if we can. As someone pointed out earlier, you control the fourth and fifth matches that way.

I like to set the tone on the first match, usually playing a five. If they throw off, the five should get most of the points. If they bring a big gun, my five still can win, and I have a tactical advantage later. If they play straight up, cool, we'll see how that goes and get to answer in match 2.

Of course, that also has a lot to do with the composition of your team, and their tendencies, too. And there are teams we play against that don't follow my plan very well :) so I have to adjust when we play them, too. We are almost always going to play 7 5 5 3 3, so it works for us. Different combinations will dictate different strategy.
 
several guys gave a lot of good answers, congrats to you guys. :thumbup:

with this being your 1st session i say don't worry about it too much. just match up skill levels as close as you can and see what happens. use this session to learn the strengths and weaknesses of your teamates and your opponents. use this time to see who is willing to be a team player and who is not. who is willing to help with scorekeeping. who is willing to help with coaching. you cant do it all yourself...well you can but then its more like a job than a night out playing pool.

once your 1st session is over you can sit down with your teamates and decide what kind of team you want to be. if you want a fun night out just keep it like it is and go with the flow.

if you want a serious team then weed out the bad apples. forgot the most important rule ....don't play with your significant other. i can write a book on that subject.get rid of the drunks ..unreliables and not team players.

some one mentioned keeping a spread sheet on your players...sounds like a good idea but i keep all the pertinent info in my head.i watch every match intently and note things that stand out in my head. i also look on the website the day of our match who we are playing and what each players win / loss record on both teams is so far so i have an idea of how i want to match up before i go to league.

some one mentioned handicap management. i can't stress how important that is.i am not talking about sandbagging, i expect every player to play to the best of their ability every match. i mean if you got a player who is in danger of going up match him up against some one you think can beat your player. yea its a los but its better than him going up and you can rely on the rest of the team to win that night.

let me give you an example. i have a player that goes up and down one session to the other as a 4 or 5. he is a good 4 but a mediocre 5. most of the time he plays down to his opponent but sometimes he plays up to higher level opponents. in vegas this year i swear he played worse than our 2. my co captain said its because he was intimidated there being our 1st time and he will do better this time. he was a 4 in vegas and i know he can't maintain a level 5 .

well i wanted to match him up against a 7 last week but my co captain wanted to play the 7 because last time they matched up that 7 won and was bragging to every one he beat my co captain who is an 8. i told him to let it slide but he talked me into him playing the 7 and my 5 playing their 6. well my 8 puts a 17-3 whipping on that 7...guess he won't be bragging about this loss lol. anyway my 5 puts a 17-3 whipping on their 6.

so now i gotta worry about my 5 probly staying at that level and will probly play like a 3 if we do make it to vegas this year.

sorry to get side tracked but that is just some of the things you gotta worry about as a captain.
 
Only captain an apa team one time, just once :)

And I let my team tell me who they wanted to play. If I saw their 7 show up, I would find out who wanted the 7? Or someone knew someone, and they wanted to play them, I let them play them, and if someone tells me they have been traveling all week, and want an "easy" match, I'd throw their 5 butt against a weak three...

The bottom line, is they all felt comfortable when they played, the 5 who wanted to hunt the 7, he wanted the action... the tired 5 destroyed the 3, and so forth.....

And I would play whomever was left, cause I didn't care really to be honest...

So, I don't think a team can say they enjoyed a session more...
And yeah, we took 1st, naturally :)
 
ChicagoRJ said:
Only captain an apa team one time, just once :)

And I let my team tell me who they wanted to play. If I saw their 7 show up, I would find out who wanted the 7? Or someone knew someone, and they wanted to play them, I let them play them, and if someone tells me they have been traveling all week, and want an "easy" match, I'd throw their 5 butt against a weak three...

The bottom line, is they all felt comfortable when they played, the 5 who wanted to hunt the 7, he wanted the action... the tired 5 destroyed the 3, and so forth.....

And I would play whomever was left, cause I didn't care really to be honest...

So, I don't think a team can say they enjoyed a session more...
And yeah, we took 1st, naturally :)
Click to expand...

Funny how having fun, getting along, and winning all seem to go together
 
ChicagoRJ said:
Only captain an apa team one time, just once :)

And I let my team tell me who they wanted to play. If I saw their 7 show up, I would find out who wanted the 7? Or someone knew someone, and they wanted to play them, I let them play them, and if someone tells me they have been traveling all week, and want an "easy" match, I'd throw their 5 butt against a weak three...

The bottom line, is they all felt comfortable when they played, the 5 who wanted to hunt the 7, he wanted the action... the tired 5 destroyed the 3, and so forth.....

And I would play whomever was left, cause I didn't care really to be honest...

So, I don't think a team can say they enjoyed a session more...
And yeah, we took 1st, naturally :)
Click to expand...

some times people just gell together and form a great team. i would like to do what you did but you have to have the right people.

the 1srt team i joined was a bunch of misfits. a girl who i had known for a few years asked me to join her team " she is now my g/f. when i got there i found i knew one guy who was her friend from the bar i played at and i also knew the captain from years ago in a bcapl league.

the captain had been playing for several years " bcapl and apa" and was only a 3. he ould show up .. play his matches " double jeapordy " and leave. we had a husband and wife who fought all the time " now divorced. a woman who wass a good 4 until her husband showed up accussing her of every man in the bar " and some women i think. then she would shoot like shit.my g/f who was a 2 and now a 3 - 3 years later that can barely make 2 in a row starting with bih. her friend " whois still on my team today :frown:" that fluctuates between a 4 and a 5. the one who i said played worse than a 2 in vegas. oh yea let me not forget the guy who was a 3 and thought he was better than any 5 in the league.

after the 1st session i told my g/f i was quitting the team. she asked why. i said too much drama and too many prima donnas. well her and her friend decided to quit that team also and start a new team and wanted me to play. i said ok . i just showed up and played. there was no strategy at all. it was like ...ok i gotta throw . who aint played yet? ok you go play .. it did not matter what the other persons skill level was. after almost 2 years of them running it i had a talk with my g/f..

i said i am tired of not ever making playoffs , tri cups , or cities..she talked with her friend and they said ok.. you run the team. i wanted him off " you know ..the 5 that played worse than a 2 in vegas. she said no.. he has been with us from the start.

the 1st thing i did was get a friend who was a master player to join and be my co captain. i picked up a real good 5. we finished 1st in the session. won tri cups . finished 2 nd in the cities in 8 ball went to vegas in 9 ball 2 sessions after i took over the team.

since vegas i have lost that good 5 i had... he was a big part of us going to vegas.. i picked up a couple of good lower level players. hopefully we can make vegas again this year.
 
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