APA, FARGO and the death of 8 ball.....

nicksaint26 said:
How did you know? Actually we didn’t have masters in my area back then and we are talking about teams not singles.

Now my turn you’re another guy with a bunch of APA patches on his case who thinks he is a big shot because he’s maxed out in APA. Don’t forget to mark your pocket or be prepared to have the APA rule thrown at you. Happy New Year buckshot/bigshot.
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Actually I run the local BCA league. But I'm very familiar with the apa operating system.

I do have one problem though... I can't stand admitted cheaters. And one that basically boasts about it at that.
 
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buckshotshoey said:
Actually I run the local BCA league. But I'm very familiar with the apa operating system.

I do have one problem though... I can't stand admitted cheaters. And one that basically boasts about it at that.
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If sandbagging in the APA is cheating then yes I was guilty of that years ago when I played. I’m sure I was the exception too lol.

If you all want to sit here and say you have never manipulated handicaps in APA to keep a team together I simply don’t believe you. Some might drink excessively and lose but claim they weren’t sandbagging which is bullshit. Some might try shots they normally wouldn’t which also is a form of sandbagging. Some may take it easy on low ranks by not playing safe which I also believe is a form sandbagging. So please spare me the holier than thou act. If you have played on a team where no one did any of those things again I don’t believe you.

I lived in the smallest state in the country and was very familiar with all the players and knew who was severely under ranked. And in order to make it to Vegas you had to beat these same players and teams every year. You know the team with the 3’s that lost every match during the season but were the first to be thrown up in states and all of a sudden they played way over their head. Oh but Bob’s not drinking today blah blah. Then next session that same team brings in some new super 3 that loses all session and plays lights out at states. They will wait until they have already won a week then play that 3 the last match to lose on purpose.

And good luck proving this as a LO because there are other ways to do it. You could play multiple nights a week on throw away teams, which by the way is making that LO’s pockets fatter. Rinse and repeat so you go to Vegas every year. Just make sure you also have a super 7/9 and you basically start with 2 wins right off the rip. The really good teams will have one more player like this to save for that last match and he is probably the guy that played the minimum matches all year but just enough to qualify.
 
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APA reminds me a little of the "city leagues" around here, where it's old school "gentleman's hit" style rules. The rules are almost begging for people to play dirty. And they do. For nothing but cheap trophies at the end of the season, too.
Tell those same people they get a free trip to Vegas and even more of them would do it.
Our BCA league pays out directly for every ball you make. Kind of makes cheating really stupid since it will cost you $$. Teams pay their own way and get put into divisions based on a worldwide ranking system. There's some maneuvering to be done to get near the top of the cap for your division, but it's mostly just a matter of putting the right team together, since you can go with whatever players you can muster, doesn't even have to be the ones you played the regular season with.
 
Sheldon said:
APA reminds me a little of the "city leagues" around here, where it's old school "gentleman's hit" style rules. The rules are almost begging for people to play dirty. And they do. For nothing but cheap trophies at the end of the season, too.
Tell those same people they get a free trip to Vegas and even more of them would do it.
Our BCA league pays out directly for every ball you make. Kind of makes cheating really stupid since it will cost you $$. Teams pay their own way and get put into divisions based on a worldwide ranking system. There's some maneuvering to be done to get near the top of the cap for your division, but it's mostly just a matter of putting the right team together, since you can go with whatever players you can muster, doesn't even have to be the ones you played the regular season with.
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Heh, payback for every ball you make. So you never learn when to play safe because it's all about making balls, or maybe its about preventing your opponent from making balls instead of preventing them from winning the match. You can even win fewer games, as long as you make more balls. Or maybe you are learning, just not in league matches. It's all about making balls and not about winning games at all, even though that's what your worldwide system is based on. All of that affects the accuracy of the worldwide ranking system. Then when it's time to pony up for that trip to Vegas, you get to choose those you think are low for their number (likely low on purpose, because your system always gets everything right), but that's called "maneuvering" in your league because you don't want to call it what it is, sandbagging. Oh, and once you "maneuver" that roster together for the trip to Vegas in the "right" division, I bet everyone tries to win every game that gets put into the worldwide ranking system because there is no consequence for going up before you play out there. Laugh all you want, it happens and will happen in any league that uses handicaps, APA included.
 
nicksaint26 said:
If you all want to sit here and say you have never manipulated handicaps in APA to keep a team together I simply don’t believe you. Some might drink excessively and lose but claim they weren’t sandbagging which is bullshit. Some might try shots they normally wouldn’t which also is a form of sandbagging. Some may take it easy on low ranks by not playing safe which I also believe is a form sandbagging. So please spare me the holier than though act. If you have played on a team where no one did any of those things again I don’t believe you.
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It's obvious if you miss or lose due to being drunk than purposely sandbagging a game. There's a difference.

I'm just going to say handicap system is flawed in this way. It's a money grab for the APA or any league with a handicap system. That is how you get more new players.

"Don't worry about never playing pool before. It is handicapped." Handicap seems like the major selling point because the consumer may think they are at an even playing field when they are not. As they get more seasoned they will use the same tactics of cheating. Cheating is a culture in these leagues so I'm not singling out the APA. They are the most well known one so I will refer to them.

I don't think many would play if it was open.
 
APA Operator said:
If I'm reading this right you're saying you used to cheat when you played APA. It's a win/win that you don't anymore.
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He probably realized he was cheating and didn't know it before.

As an outsider we call it cheating. As someone who has started playing pool in leagues then they think its perfectly fine.

He just realized he was cheating this entire time. It is systemic cheating or cheating culture in the leagues. When everyone is doing it you tend to be much more oblivious to it.
 
APA Operator said:
I can see only two ways you would make it 5 out of 8 years in my area. One is to be on several teams and go with different teams. I once had a player who captained six teams a week, all with different rosters. He went several times over a twenty-something-year period, but never with the same roster. His trick was finding who he thought was the best player in his divisions and putting them on his team, then filling out the roster with people he thought that player could coach up during a time out. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. His teams never did well in Vegas, having their fair share of the 25% two-and-outs.

The other way is to turn your roster over every year. I once had a couple (a 5 and a super 7) who did that. They put brand new players on their roster every summer and didn't coach them at all. No rules say that you have to coach or that you have to improve. Around the middle of Spring, they started coaching, knowing the system is a system of measurement that allows you to play matches as you improve before raising your skill level. By the end of Spring, some of their players had gone up but you never know when or how much improvement there will be. Through the tournaments, more players went up. They never sandbagged a single skill level but managed to time the improvement and get to Vegas three years in a row. No sandbagging, just the realization that the player who is improving to the next level gets to shoot that level a couple of times before going up. I see nothing wrong with that, it happens that way for everyone. It's unpredictable, but they managed to do it three years in a row. I don't know how many teams utilize that method, but it could explain why you see players who look like they're better than their number in Vegas. They qualify, then start practicing and taking lessons during the two months leading up to the event, and the improvement is just hitting the books then. Just because someone is shooting better than their number, it doesn't necessarily mean they're cheating or that they need to be punished instead of rewarded. The reverse is also true - APA has disqualified teams before even though they didn't think that team was cheating. There's a certain amount of improvement they will accept as normal but too much can get you disqualified. In those cases I think they relax the usual two-year suspension that comes along with disqualification. It's similar to golf tournaments where you get disqualified for shooting a round three or more strokes below your handicap - it's possible, but statistically improbable.

Aside from that, I can't think of a way a roster would make it a couple of times before I decided they were way outside the norm of the approximate one in 30 odds. Individual players may do it, but not whole rosters. Local oversight helps that, something it sounds like your area was lacking. Again, I think it's probably win/win that you don't play APA leagues any more. Good luck playing in a league where you don't feel the temptation to cheat, as you clearly don't seem to be able resist that temptation.
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This is what I spoke of previously about people enjoying the captaincy role more so than playing. Their job is to captain a team to Vegas and the captain's role and its little nuances breeds the cheating due to the matchups, level of players and the handicap.

I know a guy that I would see during my smoke breaks and we talk it up and he tells me how he also captains 3 teams and he loves that role more than playing. It was real life fantasy football. LOL
 
shooter_Hans said:
It's obvious if you miss or lose due to being drunk than purposely sandbagging a game. There's a difference.

I'm just going to say handicap system is flawed in this way. It's a money grab for the APA or any league with a handicap system. That is how you get more new players.

"Don't worry about never playing pool before. It is handicapped." Handicap seems like the major selling point because the consumer may think they are at an even playing field when they are not. As they get more seasoned they will use the same tactics of cheating. Cheating is a culture in these leagues so I'm not singling out the APA. They are the most well known one so I will refer to them.

I don't think many would play if it was open.
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I can tell you that I wouldn't continue to play twice a week if I was playing even against people far better than me, all the time, with no handicap. Call it what you will. I'm a casual player, and even tho I do want to improve, I do not have the time to dedicate to playing enough to develop better skills. I think you will find that this is the case for a large percentage of league players. We want to have fun, and to compete. The handicap may never be perfect, but as long as it gets you close to having a chance, if you play well enough, then that's ok.

Pretty sure casual players aren't interested in getting their brains beaten in, in the name of getting better, by playing straight up with folks significantly better. At least not all the time. I love playing with those players, and I'm sure others do too, but not every week, with little to no chance.
 
justadub said:
I can tell you that I wouldn't continue to play twice a week if I was playing even against people far better than me, all the time, with no handicap. Call it what you will. I'm a casual player, and even tho I do want to improve, I do not have the time to dedicate to playing enough to develop better skills. I think you will find that this is the case for a large percentage of league players. We want to have fun, and to compete. The handicap may never be perfect, but as long as it gets you close to having a chance, if you play well enough, then that's ok.

Pretty sure casual players aren't interested in getting their brains beaten in, in the name of getting better, by playing straight up with folks significantly better. At least not all the time. I love playing with those players, and I'm sure others do too, but not every week, with little to no chance.
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This is a good honest answer. I think you also know my position with pool as well and it is very similar to yours.
 
Whenever human nature is involved in competition there will be sandbagging/cheating. Funny, I think my Fargo should be 450ish, but is presently at 395/108 😳 . I play against higher rated people all the time in league and tournaments, maybe that's why.
 
thats why you play in leagues. its for fun not perfect competition.

if you want competition and no sandbagging go to the pool room and bet a decent amount. and hope your opponent lemons, or sandbags as then you have a better chance of winning.
 
muskyed said:
Had a sub try and do that to me after me winning the match on ball count. He was so bold as to shooting the cueball into a pocket to intentially give me ball in hand. His partner told me he was not going to win the game nomater what, so with ball in hand, and only a couple balls of mine left, I was easily able to position my 8 ball shot to scratch when making it to give him the win. He was really pissed, and his partner just looked at me and smiled. Only time I ever shot to not win.
I always try to win the game, but will say if I only need three balls to win the match, shoot to make those 3 balls first, then do everything in my power to finish out for the game win.
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In that situation I wouldn't have wasted any time, as soon as I saw my opponent intentionally scratch to not win I would have just pocketed the 8 early, oops, loss of game for me.
 
Sheldon said:
APA reminds me a little of the "city leagues" around here, where it's old school "gentleman's hit" style rules. The rules are almost begging for people to play dirty. And they do. For nothing but cheap trophies at the end of the season, too.
Tell those same people they get a free trip to Vegas and even more of them would do it.
Our BCA league pays out directly for every ball you make. Kind of makes cheating really stupid since it will cost you $$. Teams pay their own way and get put into divisions based on a worldwide ranking system. There's some maneuvering to be done to get near the top of the cap for your division, but it's mostly just a matter of putting the right team together, since you can go with whatever players you can muster, doesn't even have to be the ones you played the regular season with.
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Any league format with a component where missing a ball can be advantageous is flawed beyond my interest in participating in it. Don't know what it is, but it's not pool.
 
maha said:
thats why you play in leagues. its for fun not perfect competition.

if you want competition and no sandbagging go to the pool room and bet a decent amount. and hope your opponent lemons, or sandbags as then you have a better chance of winning.
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I do, I play in a no handicap League. Competition spans from average players all the way up to professional. I like playing with whoever and their talent, just shake their hand and go head to head!
 
ratings to be even remotely fair should be on win and loss. plus all that record keeping is saved.
 
Don’t know if it’s been mentioned, but the leagues I played in, not APA had more than a sandbagging problem!. For example the opponent’s team captain would put up “Bobby Smith”, SL 3. But Bobby Smith was not Bobby Smith. Hope they’re at least checking ID’s now!
 
It would be awesome if there was just a cash league to play in. No teams, no Vegas, no travel expenses, just cash. Payout at the end based on where you stand. No handicap. Want to win....go practice and start playing better. There are no free trips to Vegas, it all comes from the dues. Overheard plus profits make payouts even less. I'm back to playing league again now, but it's not of much benefit other than a distraction to get my mind off of this shit storm that my life has become.
 
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