APA has no problem with FargoRate's existence. They also don't believe the Equalizer is perfect - that's why they constantly work to improve it. They just don't believe FargoRate offers them anything from a ratings viewpoint or from a business viewpoint that they don't already have, and in some cases (important ones, some business some ratings) it offers them much less. For that reason they choose not to participate. Just like APA is not for everyone, neither is FargoRate - no problem with that.
APA/Fargo cut off?
- Thread starter benjaminwah
- Start date
As if that would stop any of the complainers from complaining. Get real. In another reply you alluded to 50% sandbaggers at nationals. I would put that at a stretch, but not an unbelievable claim, 20 years ago. More like 1-2% now, and that's the same 1-2% who would show up at a FargoRate event with a rating at least 100-200 points too low. They just haven't been caught yet.You mean the thousands of their members and others complaining about sandbagging and wrong ratings has not gotten through to them enough to do some house cleaning, what a shocker
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
My favorite part of your post is that JV liked it and is a player in the 600s that plays CPA....Canadian APA. Questioning ur life decisions bud? lol
Why the distinction between APA and CPA ? Canada is still part of North America right?
The most important thing in establishing an accurate rating is the total number of games. The length of matches doesn't factor in. Of course, you have to play a lot of races to two to get to 200 games, and not so many races to 11.
It is interesting to me to hear people say that "everyone in Vegas is sandbagging". My own anecdotal experience from the one trip I went, with 6 or 7 team matches, I saw one player that I felt probably should be one level higher than what they were at. A few others that would be bubble players. Which is about my normal experience in league, a few folks probably ought to be rated higher but the computer hasn't caught up to them, but most folks right about where they should be.
I've spoken with others who felt the same way.
This was from the teams events, I didn't watch or participate in any Mini's.
Do people cheat, sure they do. Is it "everyone" or even 50%? I don't think so.
I've spoken with others who felt the same way.
This was from the teams events, I didn't watch or participate in any Mini's.
Do people cheat, sure they do. Is it "everyone" or even 50%? I don't think so.
Pool players always have an excuse. One of the most popular is accusing ones opponent of sandbagging.
No way is it that low in the single % digits. Every week at league and when I visit areas for work and when I watch the national championships there are multiple players on the teams shooting way too good for their skill, the same players that play in tournaments and do well there playing even against players 2-3 levels over them in league. I have in person heard several teams talking about who should try to win and who should try to lose. So out of 4 teams for the night, there is 25% right there, not counting anything else that goes on that is not heard. Not just in my local area, at random pool halls across the country, two guys are shooting next to me in Ohio or Michigan, and they are talking about how they "want to stay a 4" or something so they can't play so and so or play in this tournament or that tournament. Or I see someone play some good shots and I hear "yea they are a "good" 5 or 4", which to me means they should be a 6. The only league handicap I will agree is correct for the players is the max one, everything else is pretty much automatically suspect. Or the same teams and players would not always be winning their events.
Assume for the sake of THIS argument that the APA World 8-Ball Championships, with its 800-some teams, has ZERO sandbaggers. It will never have zero, no big money handicapped event will no matter whose system you're using, but for the sake of this discussion lets assume zero. By the time you get to the finals, your team has played at least ten rounds and has won at least ten in a row. There's a VERY good chance that someone (probably multiple someones) on your team is playing the best pool of their lives. EVEN IN A TOURNAMENT WHERE THERE ARE NO SANDBAGGERS SOME PLAYERS WILL LOOK BETTER THAN THEY ARE AND WILL PLAY BETTER THAN THEIR MEASURED ABILITY. That's just what a tournament of that size produces - somebody has to win, and the APA wants it to be the ones who shoot well for their ability, honestly. Those are the people who actually deserve to win, they just had the heater of their lives. Let them enjoy their moment in the spotlight before you start tearing them apart.
The number's pretty low. I've watched it get better and better for nearly 30 years now. As for the talk you hear, those same people would have the same discussions even if APA was to adopt FargoRate, so the answer to that probably has nothing to do with the system being used, and more to do with the persons running the system and having the discussions.
I know several teams that get to Vegas regularly. They are all , uh , handicap conscious.
They are not full bore win every match in the most efficient way possible all session long.
That's sandbagging and thats what it takes for repeated trips to Vegas in the APA. 23 rule. It is what it is.
They are not full bore win every match in the most efficient way possible all session long.
That's sandbagging and thats what it takes for repeated trips to Vegas in the APA. 23 rule. It is what it is.
To be very forth coming... I did play 3 consecutive seasons of regular handicapped CPA (APA) in 2019. I was asked by senior management at my company to help out their team...lol. I was started at max 7/9 and went undefeated in my first session. That's actually where the whole "The_JV" handle came from.
As you can see from the above, my entire playing history amounts to 38 sets of 8 ball, and another 4 of 9ball.
The league was a shooting gallery for me. Until opposing captains started dumping their 2/3's on me, which was a primary reason for leaving the league. I'm playing a bit stronger now even though I'm under achieving at ~670 but at that time was easily north of 640.
I have for several years continually taken part in the Master's league run out of the same room. Which for those not in the know. Is un-handicapped, uses a different set format and in my particular area has no limits on team member ability. I have abused that league for what has become my annual "Vegas vaca with the wife"....lol. We were finally dethroned this year, so I may make my exit from that league as well. If it were handicapped and regulated I would not be playing in it.
Do I regret the decision to play regular CPA (APA)...? Nah, coming out of retirement it was fun for the first session or so. I showed up and played. The "maintaining qualification" carrot had me running around in circles within the league for the next 2 sessions after tearing it up during the first.
Do I recommend the CPA (APA)...?.., to the right people, yep sure do. It has it's place. I prefer the CCS (ACS) format which is identical to the BCA of old. Nearly all the strongest players in my area play regular team CPA, and poach the single events it qualifies them for so they can vaca in Vegas. My experience in the CPA (APA) mirrors what has been said in this thread. The handicapping is wildly flawed, and the top end is as bad as it gets. Playing as a 7 locally was a farce. On my particular league night there were roughly a dozen "7"s. None of them stood a chance against me and there were another clearly defined teirs of "7 ability" below myself.
All that said... Now that I can in good conscious make my exit form the Master's league. I may entertain minimal activity in regular CPA, just so I can get my vacation via the singles events like my counterparts do. Only need to show up 4 nights a session ($12each I think = $144yr) and then win a singles event for my airfare and hotel. Almost be stupid not to abuse that system...lol
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The hotel's paid and you get travel assistance to get there, so you're mostly covered there. But that just means you'll be taking the spot from one of your counterparts, probably only two can go each year (one monster per regional), unless you count 9-Ball, then two more. But it's quite all right, that's one thing the APA offers to very highly skilled players. If it's worth it to you, go for it. If you don't, someone else will go anyway.
Those same teams that win 10 rounds end up getting disqualified because too many players move up a ranking. The only way to win in APA is to dump period!
Yes.
Saying sandbagging in APA is at an all time low is simply gaslighting.
To win in Vegas you have to play. To repeatedly get your team to Vegas you must be handicap conscious. Sometimes a team gets together , plays hard and gets to Vegas.
For that team to get to Vegas again they must be mindful.
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The way I look at it. They've been taking one of my spots because I've allow them to by not showing up...lol
I'd be lying if I said I paid close attention, but there's 3 sessions a year. So I think that translates to three regional events for both 8 and 9 ball...? In theory 6 singles trips...? ...or is it you win a regional spot during one of the 3 sessions and they send the top 2...?
Very profound... You should write for Hallmark
Absolutely! Handicap "management" is a must in APA which is why I don't play.
It's only a thing if you are serious about going to Vegas.
I played one session of APA 8ball and captained 3 masters teams in different divisions. I enjoyed it when I played , and like the masters format. However, my 8 ball team could only use one 7. Since I couldn't play on the 8 ball team I could no longer play in the masters divisions.
It was fun while it lasted but there were other options available. Everyone should be so fortunate.
The singles program doesn't follow the team schedule. Two seasons a year, the first is 1/1 through 6/15 (October regional) and the other is 6/16 through 11/30 (March regional). The winners from those regionals all play at the end of April. Best of luck if you decide to do it!I'd be lying if I said I paid close attention, but there's 3 sessions a year. So I think that translates to three regional events for both 8 and 9 ball...? In theory 6 singles trips...? ...or is it you win a regional spot during one of the 3 sessions and they send the top 2...?
And have a league operator who isn't paying attention. It's why I rarely have repeats.
What do you do that prevents repeats?