APA Franchise.

[Scott Lee]

P.S.....We are the only league competing at Allen Hopkin's Super Billiard Expo that is held every March in Valley Forge, Pa. TAP also has been asked (and is the only league that was extended a welcome) to hold an event at the Derby City Classic next year in Louisville by Diamond owner and DCC founder, Greg Sullivan.

Just to clarify your misinformation...BCA has been holding amateur events alongside the DCC for several years. TAP holds tournaments connected with the SBE because they are headquartered in PA, and it was convenient for Allen to be able to draw a lot of players from the mid-atlantic area. Also, your statement about selling TAP franchises to disgruntled 'former' APA members is just that...members. You're not selling them to former APA franchisees...and TAP franchises SHOULD be a fraction of what APA costs. They are only a fraction of the size of the APA. FWIW, I agree that APA franchise costs are outrageously overpriced, but you have a strong marketing department behind you, and annual national tournament prizes of more than $1,000,000 for many years now, which is a big draw. TAP has been around for more than 10 years, and there has not been tremendously significant growth...which is also true with the APA. When I was involved in the early 90's, APA heavily promoted their goal of having a million members by 2000, which I thought was complete b.s. As of 2006 their numbers stand at 250,000, including adding Canada (up from 150,000 15 years ago). It's possible that they may get nearer their goal, with the recent addition of Japan to the APA organization. Asia is a huge pool market. One last thing...btw, 9-ball is a "slop" game too (at all levels except pro), but very few players win on slop shots...which is also true about APA 8-ball. Try touting your own strengths instead of just badmouthing other leagues. There's plenty of room for all the 'affiliated' pool leagues...and there have been plenty of them over the last 2-3 decades. The better ones stick around. The APA will be 30 years old in two years...and still growing.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[str8poolbanger]

TAP holds tournaments connected with the SBE because they are headquartered in PA, and it was convenient for Allen to be able to draw a lot of players from the mid-atlantic area.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

According to TAP's website they are based out of VA. Unless you mean just closer for the SBE and Allen to deal with TAP being "Mid Atlantic" area. I play both leagues and was a former TAP OP that also ran into the problem of the above mentioned post of having too many bar leagues to compete with. So for now I will remain a passionist about the game of billiards.

 

[poolcuemaster]

add a buck

Or you could consider the other side...
The Charlotte area APA has over 20,000 players who play once a week and pay $6 per match. Many of them play 2 or even 3 nights a week.
Grab a calaculator...

The Charlotte APA went up to seven bucks a match and that is seventy bucks a night for two teams playing each other so click another few thousand onto the calculator KV, somebodys gettin rich.--Leonard

 

[ScottW]

The Charlotte APA went up to seven bucks a match and that is seventy bucks a night for two teams playing each other so click another few thousand onto the calculator KV, somebodys gettin rich.--Leonard

If I'm not mistaken, the normal match fee is $5. Some areas charge a bit more. But the LO isn't necessarily pocketing that money.

For example, in my area (three county area NW of Denver), it's usually $5, but in our home bar, it's $6 - because the extra $1 goes to the bar, as they open up the table for us - no quarters. It winds up being a deal for us each match, unless the match only goes two games. Me, as a six, I'm definitely getting my buck's worth.

Last session, my team moved to another area - where it was $5 - but we had to drop quarters. But the bar had free "halftime drinks" (you got one drink free, same type you'd been drinking before - so no free beer if drinking water), so that helped make up the difference.

So for those of you out there who pay more than $5 - are you dropping quarters (assuming on a coin-op) or not? The extra may be going to the venue as a pseudo-green-fee.

 

[NeZ]

My APA league in Chicago is $11 per week. $6 of it goes to the APA and $5 goes to the pool hall. We play on normal non-quarter tables so the $5 covers the table time. We also get a free beer.

 

[gman_tx]

i play in north tx and we pay $7.00 per week my home bar does not open the tables but gives one free drink to both teams. About half of the bars in our division open the tables the others don't.

 

[FLICKit]

Just to clarify your (Sam at TAP) misinformation...

Ironic... Almost every time I've had a run in with Sam at TAP he's been known to spread misinformation. And some of that stuff has been insignificant enough that there's really no need to lie about it.

But I guess that feeds into his reputation of BASH and BRAG.

 

[nola22]

fees

I played APA in New Orleans for years, and the bar owners typically paid the weekly fees. When I moved to Spokane, I was surprised to find out that teams pay fees, but it sounds like that's the norm across the country. Most of the teams in my N.O. league consumed more than their fair share of drinks, so maybe the N.O. bar owners figured it was worth it to get them in on a week night.

 

[Icon of Sin]

I too am under Terry Justice. In the Baltimore Area. Im a division rep. It is 7 dollars for us too for league dues. It just went from 6 to 7 this year.

 

[jes_playin]

My APA league in Chicago is $11 per week. $6 of it goes to the APA and $5 goes to the pool hall. We play on normal non-quarter tables so the $5 covers the table time. We also get a free beer.

It's $7 a night here in Charlotte. The bar my team plays out of opens the table for us,but that's not the best part...the best part is that they pay for us to play when we are the "home" team that night. Everywhere else we play also opens the tables for us.

 

[Sam at TAP]

Scott,
I am not trying to spread misinformation. I usually post and get sucked into long drawn out arguements with APA ops or players and I don't plan on having that happen now.
I didn't know the BCA had anything going on at the DCC and that I apologize for. TAP has been invited to hold a event there as well. TAP IS the only national league at the Super Billiard Expo each March. That I do know.

As for selling to APA people, yes, they are disgruntled APA members or league directors of the APA. So what? I never said I sold to a APA operator now did I? I don't think I could anyway because I believe I heard the APA made their people sign a non compete clause so they didn't lose their people to TAP. Correct me if I am wrong on this. I don't want to spread misinformation. And for the record, I have never went out and tried to recruit a APA operator to TAP. I don't need the legal problems that would come with that. APA members and league directors contact us. We don't contact them first.

As for the statement about slop pool, all I am stating is what TAP does not do. And don't tell me that you never lost a game on a slop shot. It always seems to happen when you have the match in hand and up jumps a slop shot. It has happened to me when I played in that league. When I am contacted by people interested in a TAP license I mention the no slop rule and they love to hear that.
Besides me mentioning that TAP is a call pocket league, which is just stating a difference between the two leagues, where did I bash the APA? Please don't try and make something up where it isn't.

For the record, you said TAP has not had significant growth. I beg to differ. TAP is growing at a rate of over 1,000 new members on average a month for the past 3 years. TAP now has over 100 licensees in close to 40 states. When I started in April 1997. TAP was a small league at approx. 4,500 players. TAP now has close to 80,000 members. And TAP will continue to grow after we introduce POOL-NET which will revolutionize the way leagues are managed as we now know it. In fact, Pool-Net is being launched as I type this.

And by the way Flick It, since I see your from Phoniex.......What did TAP do to the APA in Phoniex? If I am correct and I don't want to spread misinformation, I do believe TAP cut the APA there by close to half of what it once was. Am I correct? I believe TAP is close to double the size of the APA there. Correct? You know me, I don't want to spread misinformation.

 

[txspaderz]

Scott,
I am not trying to spread misinformation. I usually post and get sucked into long drawn out arguements with APA ops or players and I don't plan on having that happen now.
I didn't know the BCA had anything going on at the DCC and that I apologize for. TAP has been invited to hold a event there as well. TAP IS the only national league at the Super Billiard Expo each March. That I do know.

As for selling to APA people, yes, they are disgruntled APA members or league directors of the APA. So what? I never said I sold to a APA operator now did I? I don't think I could anyway because I believe I heard the APA made their people sign a non compete clause so they didn't lose their people to TAP. Correct me if I am wrong on this. I don't want to spread misinformation.
As for the statement about slop pool, all I am stating is what TAP does not do. And don't tell me that you never lost a game on a slop shot. It always seems to happen when you have the match in hand and up jumps a slop shot. It has happened to me when I played in that league. When I am contacted by people interested in a TAP license I mention the no slop rule and they love to hear that.
Besides me mentioning that TAP is a call pocket league, which is just stating a difference between the two leagues, where did I bash the APA? Please don't try and make something up where it isn't.

For the record, you said TAP has not had significant growth. I beg to differ. TAP is growing at a rate of over 1,000 new members on average a month for the past 3 years. TAP now has over 100 licensees in close to 40 states. When I started in April 1997. TAP was a small league at approx. 4,500 players. TAP now has close to 80,000 members. And TAP will continue to grow after we introduce POOL-NET which will revolutionize the way leagues are managed as we now know it. In fact, Pool-Net is being launched as I type this.

And by the way Flick It since I see your from Phoniex.......What did TAP do to the APA in Phoniex? If I am correct and I don't want to spread misinformation, I do believe TAP cut the APA there by close to half of what it once was. Am I correct? I believe TAP is close to double the size of the APA there. Correct? You know me, I don't want to spread misinformation.

And you (as in TAP) still can't afford a decent website?

 

[Sam at TAP]

Tap

What does that have to do with anything? At least TAP puts a message board up to hear what members have to say. We want to hear what is on our members minds. Where is the APA board?

I do want to correct what I posted before that I did hear that APA licensees were directed to sign all of their league reps. a non compete clause so as not to lose them to TAP or any other league. I am not sure on the APA licensee themselves being under one but I imagine they are as well.
I did speak to some APA league reps. and that is what I was told some were being pushed to do. And that is one of the first things I ask them before our conversation goes any further.

 

[MrLucky]

Juwst a thought ;-)

All of us or at least the great deal of us that come to these forums are fellow pool lovers! I understand that money is the "root" of all evil but if the 3 or so pool leagues found some way to coexist instead of as the gentleman from tap is illustrating by his gloats trying to kill each other .."And by the way Flick It since I see your from Phoniex.......What did TAP do to the APA in Phoniex? If I am correct and I don't want to spread misinformation, I do believe TAP cut the APA there by close to half of what it once was. Am I correct? I believe TAP is close to double the size of the APA there. Correct? You know me, I don't want to spread misinformation."..Perhaps we would not be on here and other sites lamenting how there is not enough growth in this sport!, not enough money for pool pros to make a good living as there is in other venues ! I do not see this dog eat dog attitude in Golf for example ! Folks let's not be blind to the trees because we want to see the forest ! LOL! my analogy! We need to look at the big picture here. JMO!

 

[Sam at TAP]

Tap

Please look at my first post. I didn't attack anyone. But I am not going to let anyone attack me either. Flick It (who has always put his 2 cents in when I post) came after me. And I did they same. This is the reason most of the TAP licensees and players never post on here. Same old thing. I say, 'Try TAP." And APA supporters come on blasting me. Does it say anywhere in my posts not to play APA? No. All I said was to try TAP.

 

[Kevin G.]

"...TAP now has close to 80,000 members..."

Sam, I don't mean to question your numbers and am definitely not suggesting that the 80k figure is made up, but I am curious how you come up with it?
If there are 80 thousand people playing TAP, there should be at least 10 thousand teams, right?
I can't figure out where they are all playing? And, if you send 1 team to Nationals per every 12 teams that plays in the league (which is what I've heard TAP sends), wouldn't there be a heck of a lot more teams at nationals?
For the record, I also wonder how APA came up with 250,000 players?

 

[Icon of Sin]

"...TAP now has close to 80,000 members..."

Sam, I don't mean to question your numbers and am definitely not suggesting that the 80k figure is made up, but I am curious how you come up with it?
If there are 80 thousand people playing TAP, there should be at least 10 thousand teams, right?
I can't figure out where they are all playing? And, if you send 1 team to Nationals per every 12 teams that plays in the league (which is what I've heard TAP sends), wouldn't there be a heck of a lot more teams at nationals?
For the record, I also wonder how APA came up with 250,000 players?

I think it is more like 80,000 paid memberships... that is because you have people like me and the whole TAP division that I was in who absolutely hated it and quit.

But technically, we are still members I guess. (i'll never make that mistake again)

 

[MrLucky]

Can't speak on the ummmmm TAP #'s but

"...TAP now has close to 80,000 members..."

Sam, I don't mean to question your numbers and am definitely not suggesting that the 80k figure is made up, but I am curious how you come up with it?
If there are 80 thousand people playing TAP, there should be at least 10 thousand teams, right?
I can't figure out where they are all playing? And, if you send 1 team to Nationals per every 12 teams that plays in the league (which is what I've heard TAP sends), wouldn't there be a heck of a lot more teams at nationals?
For the record, I also wonder how APA came up with 250,000 players?

The APA is paying out this May more than $250,000 in prizes not counting the free trips for thousands of players to Vegas !
from the newsletter...


History of the APA

The American Poolplayers Association (APA) was founded by professional poolplayers Terry Bell and Larry Hubbart in 1979 as the National Pool League, which became the American Poolplayers Association in 1981. The two realized the popularity of the sport, but knew that, different from other sports, there was no existing recreational league system.

Today, the APA, also known as the Canadian Poolplayers Association in Canada, has grown to more than 250,000 members and boasts more members than all other "national" leagues combined. The League is administered locally by a network of Franchise Operators. League play is conducted weekly with both 8-Ball and 9-Ball team formats offered.

The APA hosts an 8-Ball and 9-Ball League system. The APA 8-Ball League and APA 9-Ball League are offered throughout the country and each year teams have the opportunity to advance to the APA National Team Championships.

At the national level, the APA guarantees more than $1 million in national tournament prize money. This consists of the $500,000 APA 8-Ball National Team Championships, the $200,000 APA 8-Ball Classic, the $100,000 APA 9-Ball National Team Championship, the $100,000 APA 9-Ball Shootout, and the MiniMania tournaments, which paid nearly $220,000 during the 2004 National Team Championships.

The APA also conducts the U.S. Amateur Championship, the pool world's most prestigious amateur tournament, which is the only competition open to APA members and nonmembers alike. The tournament began in 1994 and has grown more than 35 percent during the past year, as players across North America battle for one of the 128 spots in the tournament.

 

[Sam at TAP]

TAP numbers

That is how many players have registered with TAP over the years. I am sure they are not active and I can't give you a number on how many are active because I really don't know.
It is the same with the APA. There is no way they have 250,000 active players. If they say they do, then you better get a calculator out and figure how many teams they have (based on a avg. of 7 per team) there would be close to 38,000 teams. I highly doubt they have that many. 3% of that number would be about 1,100 teams and that is close to what APA local ops send to their nationals. There are about 600 at their nationals, so based out that number you can figure APA has just over 1/2 that total of active players. And if they do have 250,000 active teams then they are not paying out nearly enough money at their nationals for what they would be bringing in with that number of teams, IMHO. Get a calculator. It's not hard to figure.

My area alone in Western Pa. I have signed up well over 2,000 players in the past 10 years and about 600-700 are active. Players come and go, move, die, etc. APA always boasted of 250,000 members but they never say one word....ACTIVE.

 

[Kevin G.]

So is the guy in San Diego right?

“…TAP is new to San Diego but not to over 70,000 TAP pool players currently playing in the United States and Canada…”

Just curious?

Maybe somebody familiar with the APA can explain how they count players- since Sam has admitted that TAP counts anyone who has ever played as a current player when they tell people how many players they have.

Man... I bet advertisers are glad that they don't get charged advertising fees based on how many people have EVER read a magazine or watched a TV show!