APA Franchise.

[Cory in DC]

It is the same with the APA. There is no way they have 250,000 active players. If they say they do, then you better get a calculator out and figure how many teams they have (based on a avg. of 7 per team) there would be close to 38,000 teams. I highly doubt they have that many. 3% of that number would be about 1,100 teams and that is close to what APA local ops send to their nationals. There are about 600 at their nationals, so based out that number you can figure APA has just over 1/2 that total of active players. And if they do have 250,000 active teams then they are not paying out nearly enough money at their nationals for what they would be bringing in with that number of teams, IMHO. Get a calculator. It's not hard to figure.

There are also 300 or so 9-ball teams that go to Vegas (http://www.poolplayers.com/ntc/2006ntc/9ball.html) and IIRC, it was close to 700 8-ball teams last year. So 250,000 teams would be about 35,000 players (7 per team). 3% would be about 1050 teams going to Vegas. So I think the numbers are actually about right. "Almost 700" plus "over 300" = about 1000 teams were in Vegas last year. It's about 50 short, but there are a lot of APA franchises (mostly rural) that are too small to send a team to Vegas, which might account for the missing 50 -- the LO has to have, I think, 45 teams.

 

[IbeAnEngineer]

Thoughts on various leagues

I normally do not post much but thought I would put in my opinion on leagues. I have played in APA, TAP, BCA and VNEA. Currently, I am only playing in BCA and VNEA. IMHO, APA and TAP are great leagues to start off playing in because of the handicap systems. They seem to level the playing field for the weaker players somewhat and can be a bunch of fun. However, due to the handicaps you inevitably get sandbagging and teams making more of an effort to gain an edge thru the handicaps rather than hard work and better pool-playing. One problem that I see with the APA (cant comment on TAP as I only played one session and had to drop it due to work) is the number of teams that are sent to Vegas. I played in the Houston area and only 5 or 6 out of 190 or so 8 ball teams got to go to the Nationals. When our team went to Vegas in 2002 for 8 ball the league paid each team about 2300 to go which is not much for 30 bucks a week per team regular dues.
Granted, I know the franchise owner needs to make a profit but sending 6 teams out of 180 is pretty slim odds if you want to play in Vegas.

In contrast, the VNEA league I play in sends 60% of the teams and the BCA league I play in sends 80%. The VNEA league is owned by the coin-op company that owns the tables and the BCA is an in house league at the local pool hall. Most of the money taken in is paid back to the players which is a better deal.

I guess my point is, when looking for a league to play in, it is normally better to play in a league that is owned/ run by someone who is using it to enhance thier business rather than play in one in which the operator is making all thier profits off the dues of the player.

 

[Sam at TAP]

Tap Numbers

Kevin,
I do not know who posted that in Az. but those numbers are not all the active players in TAP, as I stated. But there are close to 80,000 members that have registered over the years. Same as APA's 250,000 claimed players. I am sure I am one of those and I have not played APA in 10 years. As far as the 3% to the APA nationals that is almost to the tee what the APA op sends here . He had about 90-95 teams 8 ball teams in 2006 and three were sent to Vegas. I am able to send about 6% of my league to TAP's nationals and I charge $1 less a player per week..($6) As I said, get a calculator.....numbers don't lie.

 

[ScottW]

In contrast, the VNEA league I play in sends 60% of the teams and the BCA league I play in sends 80%. The VNEA league is owned by the coin-op company that owns the tables and the BCA is an in house league at the local pool hall. Most of the money taken in is paid back to the players which is a better deal.

Correct me if I'm wrong - but aren't the VNEA/BCA nationals open to any team that wants to register and show up? Whereas with APA - I dunno about TAP - your team has to qualify to go to nationals.

If that's the case, your leagues don't "send" any teams - those teams choose to go on their own. Now, if the local league helps out with trip expenses, that's a whole different thing.

 

[rackem]

Correct me if I'm wrong - but aren't the VNEA/BCA nationals open to any team that wants to register and show up? Whereas with APA - I dunno about TAP - your team has to qualify to go to nationals.

If that's the case, your leagues don't "send" any teams - those teams choose to go on their own. Now, if the local league helps out with trip expenses, that's a whole different thing.

I am thinking any player may go and play in the open singles but I think a team needs to qualify.Not possitive

 

[MrLucky]

this is also my understanding..

Correct me if I'm wrong - but aren't the VNEA/BCA nationals open to any team that wants to register and show up? Whereas with APA - I dunno about TAP - your team has to qualify to go to nationals.

If that's the case, your leagues don't "send" any teams - those teams choose to go on their own. Now, if the local league helps out with trip expenses, that's a whole different thing.

My friends that went with BCA a year ago paid their own way ! FYI two of them are now playing on my APA 8 ball team!

 

[Kevin G.]

Thanks Sam,
Acutally though, that quote didn't come from AzB. It came from http://sandiegotap.com

 

[rackem]

Thanks Sam,
Acutally though, that quote didn't come from AzB. It came from http://sandiegotap.com

I just read some of the Brand spanking new SD Tap league sight. First off note it is just a 2 poolroom in house league. The majority of league players in that area play out of Bars. TAP may be able to capture a minor piece of the market. However there is currently a very successful 400 plus APA league in SD county. The league operator does a great job and is well thought of. I really don't think TAP stands much of a chance in that area.
Just like any business you need to look at your competition.
Now quite to the contrary a few years back in Sarasoto, Fl there was an APA League operator who screwed the players and ran of with the money. In that instance it was easy for the VNEA to come and take over. Mainly because most of the tables in that area were leased. What the VNEA did not get TAP was able to capture.
These are just a couple of my personal observations. I know in some areas the different leagues do co-exsist. But in my opinion there are just so many pieces of the pie.

 

[FLICKit]

And by the way Flick It, since I see your from Phoniex.......What did TAP do to the APA in Phoniex? If I am correct and I don't want to spread misinformation, I do believe TAP cut the APA there by close to half of what it once was. Am I correct? I believe TAP is close to double the size of the APA there. Correct? You know me, I don't want to spread misinformation.

Since you asked let's expound. The APA LO was Dave. He created an arrangement with Robert, who assisted him and became his right hand man. This went on for years, which thus trained Robert in how to manage and run leagues. After receiving this training Robert decided to go on his own and join TAP. Robert then continued in his role as the right hand man with the APA, took all the league reps, and together they all recruited for TAP while still managing the APA league. Instead of being honorable by just joining the TAP league and creating his business from scratch, he used his position inside APA to steal about 50% teams before he even did one thing for TAP. Dave ended up having to sell his franchise as a result. Then Robert further utilized his connections with the establishments to try to eliminate APA completely by forcing them to not even allow APA to conduct business there. In some places Robert succeeded for the short term, but overall he failed. The new LO, despite having health problems has grown and rejuvenated the Phoenix APA.

Robert has done some growth on his own. But ever since the hostile takeover Robert has always been the largest TAP operation in the nation.

TAP has trouble succeeding on its own. It is a parasitic organization that tries to feed off of APA. That's one of the big reasons that SAM and others rely so much on BASH and BRAG tactics.

Many players who went to try the TAP, ended up returning to the APA. TAP scoring is painful and tedious. The scorekeeper has to keep track of every ball made and every ball missed, and lump it into this jumble of stats. For example a typical match would consist of a box with 45 hash marks for made shots, 15 hash marks for missed shots. People actually pay teammates or others so that they don't have to keep score. Scoring is a pain in the butt, because if you get the slight bit distracted, then it'll all get messed up. Most scorekeepers don't talk or interact with anyone while keeping score. Due to the tediousness of the scoring, virtually every scoresheet is badly inaccurate.

In addition the TAP handicapping system S*CKS! It takes a very long time for the players to be updated correctly. I've played with many people who I'd play heads up, but in the TAP handicapping system rates us at a skill level or more difference. And this is not a borderline issue, it's just the way their flawed system works.

There have been BCA 10 players who have joined TAP and have remained rated a 4 for over 3 seasons.

In addition, SAM at TAP, if you want to promote your league why don't you take your BASH and BRAG and LIE tactics and go to your own thread?

Refer to some of SAM's previous threads, and see the problems that TAP had paying people at their Nationals and had to instead give vouchers, which many had trouble even redeeming.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=12455

There's more that could be said, but that's enough for now. Sam hates me because I've busted him in numerous lies. Can expound on that another time, if necessary...

Referring to SAM at TAP's post, I wouldn't quite say he lied on this one, but did he relay the full truth?...

 

[txspaderz]

Sam,

Why do 98% of your posts talking about TAP include the words APA? Why do you feel the need to compare the two? Is that your selling point? Any competent ... .. wrong word. Any professional Marketer / Advertiser / Retailer does not compare 2 companies / brands with one another. They tell what they have to offer. If I went to a job interview and I bashed my old company, do you think I would get hired?

I think TAP needs to find a new VP of Sales and I think their league would triple in size.

 

[MrLucky]

Tap Tap!

Sam,

Why do 98% of your posts talking about TAP include the words APA? Why do you feel the need to compare the two? Is that your selling point? Any competent ... .. wrong word. Any professional Marketer / Advertiser / Retailer does not compare 2 companies / brands with one another. They tell what they have to offer. If I went to a job interview and I bashed my old company, do you think I would get hired?

I think TAP needs to find a new VP of Sales and I think their league would triple in size.

The first thing any good sales person learns is to extol the virtues of their product and not try and slam the competition, it only weakens your veracity and the value of your product !

My thoughts are this The APA is the fastest growing league because it tries to bring in new people to pool ! this in itself no matter what your level of play or affiliation is a good thing for pool in general ! and helps us all!!!!!! including the competition!

 

[Sam at TAP]

Tap

Once again I must say.....Did anyone read my first post and if they did where did I bash the APA? All I stated was that TAP is a call pocket league. That is stating a difference between the two, not bashing.

1. TAP is parasitic? I guess McDonald's thinks that BK and Wendy's are parasites too. If you can't please your customers then there will always be competition to offer them something else. THAT'S CALLED BUSINESS.
2. TAP scorekeeping is tedious. It is counting balls just like the BCA counts balls and the APA counts balls in 9 ball.
3. You know I argued with you guys 10 years ago and you said back then that TAP wouldn't last, etc. TAP keeps on growing no matter what you say. And guess what? These past 10 years proves everything I said back then that I was right and you were wrong. TAP is still here and it keeps on growing. And no matter what you say it doesn't change the facts. Andt hat's a fact.

 

[IbeAnEngineer]

Correct me if I'm wrong - but aren't the VNEA/BCA nationals open to any team that wants to register and show up? Whereas with APA - I dunno about TAP - your team has to qualify to go to nationals.

If that's the case, your leagues don't "send" any teams - those teams choose to go on their own. Now, if the local league helps out with trip expenses, that's a whole different thing.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. When I meant "send" a team. Those teams received money to pay for the trip to Nationals along with the league paying thier entry fee. You are correct in that APA teams have to qualify for nationals. Unfortunantly, a large majority of the APA teams playing do not qualify and do not get any of thier league dues back at the end of the year. At least not in the area I am at.

 

[txspaderz]

You sir need to re-read your posts. You mention APA in almost every post. You mention what TAP has and the APA doesn't. Like the message board? How about mentioning TAP and APA in Phoenix? How about one where you said that APA Players were "Low Lifes" and you came up with something like "Association of Poolplaying Assholes" back last year?

Shall I come up with more? I'd be more than happy to research all 45 of your posts and put them in a spreadsheet containing the percentages where you mentioned the APA in them.

I'd be willing to bet that the average would be above 90%.

I have nothing against the TAP league. They tried opening one down here in Houston and it bombed as our APA league in Houston has over 1200 Active members with 180 Teams. Our LO cares about players and how each one is treated. Also, guess what? There is no favoritism in all APA leagues like you suggested in another thread. My LO has only moved up 1 person because he asked to be moved up. He has never moved anyone up or down otherwise than the above stated.

So before you start bashing another league, take a look at your own. When yours get's bigger than the APA or BCA or even VNEA you can start talking like you are now.

However, in the end, one thing will remain the same. Other Leagues are NOT bashing TAP, APA, BCA, etc etc on public forums. They are more professional than you.

 

[FLICKit]

Once again I must say.....Did anyone read my first post and if they did where did I bash the APA? ...That is stating a difference between the two, not bashing.

Let's put it in plain and simple terms. Are you telling me that you don't BASH the APA? Simple yes or no will suffice...

2. TAP scorekeeping is tedious. It is counting balls just like the BCA counts balls and the APA counts balls in 9 ball.

It's nowhere near like counting balls in BCA. They don't make a mark after each shot, whether it's make or miss or break or foul...
The APA does count balls in 9 ball, and can be tedious, although a little less than TAP. I've done both, it's a little easier to do in the APA 9 ball, and much easier in the APA 8 ball. And in the APA 9 ball, the marks are for scoring which affects the direct outcome of the match (i.e. 55 to 32 race) kind of easy to follow. But the TAP 8 ball scoring, those tedious marks have nothing to do with the scoring of the match. You still rely on game wins to determine match wins, which coincidentally was copied/stolen from the APA games must win chart.

3. You know I argued with you guys 10 years ago and you said back then that TAP wouldn't last, etc.

What fantasy world are you living in? I never even knew you 10 years ago.

SAM SAM the fantasy man!

 

[Scott Lee]

For the record, I also wonder how APA came up with 250,000 players?

Since I mentioned the number, I'll explain it. The 250,000 is the number of PAID ANNUAL MEMBERSHIPS. I guarantee that there are few APA players that pay a $20 (or is it $25 now?) annual membership fee, and not play. APA does not count people who were once in the league, but no longer are paid members. Like in all leagues, players come and go. APA's numbers are based on current memberships. FWIW, I am not affiliated with the APA, nor am I a member. I do believe in the league, as I believe in, and support all league play...even TAP. Some like it and some don't!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[MrLucky]

and a TAP TAP to you Scott!

Since I mentioned the number, I'll explain it. The 250,000 is the number of PAID ANNUAL MEMBERSHIPS. I guarantee that there are few APA players that pay a $20 (or is it $25 now?) annual membership fee, and not play. APA does not count people who were once in the league, but no longer are paid members. Like in all leagues, players come and go. APA's numbers are based on current memberships. FWIW, I am not affiliated with the APA, nor am I a member. I do believe in the league, as I believe in, and support all league play...even TAP. Some like it and some don't!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I especially agree with your last thought! any thing that helps promote and widen interest in Pool is fine by me! ....Can't we all get along?"..... quoted from a unhappy LA driver!!!!

 

[rackem]

Although I have never played APA, I have been around it and other leagues quite a bit through the sales of billiard supplies. I really do not understand why they do not just switch to call ball and pocket. They would then rid themselves of many detractors. The rest could stay the same. I know the initials match. But really Any Pocket Any ball is really weak.

 

[txspaderz]

I believe the reason they do not switch to call pocket is because this is a league for amateurs, and sometimes to win amateurs need some luck!

 

[Kevin G.]

Thanks Scott!
I knew somebody on AzB would have some insight on this.