APA Frustration with Constant Double Hit Violations

[nobcitypool]

I really enjoy playing APA and understand many of the built in limitations. Far and away, my biggest frustration with APA is the constant double hit fouls that occur when the CB and OB are close together. It would be a rare evening where I don't see it happen more than once in our matches. It doesn't bother me much when I see relatively new players that are 2, 3 & 4's do it (although I think they should have this explained to them by their team captain) but when I see more experienced 6 and 7's blatantly violate the rule and make no attempt to do anything other than drive their cue stick through the CB & OB, it really frustrates me. Equally frustrating is to see one or more people on their team (or the Captain) who have been playing pool for decades and have to know this is a foul and make ZERO attempt to correct their team mates play.

We got butt raped in a critical match in the playoffs by this rule. We asked an observer to watch for it and stupidly didn't ask him to clarify his understanding of the rule. It was a blatant foul that allowed the shooter to win the game (next shot was 8 ball sitting in pocket). I asked the observer afterwards how it wasn't a foul and he seemed shocked that I thought it was. Upon further conversation, it was clear he had zero clue about double hits.

I was playing a 9 ball match this past Tuesday against a 7. He had a shot where there was less than 2" between the OB and CB with a slight cut and they were around 6" off the short rail on the opposite end of where the next ball in sequence was. I saw him lining up and it was obvious to me what he was going to do. I hopped up and warned him he was going to foul. He was a bit of a trashbag and started arguing with me. He then turned around, took the shot with a huge follow through that drove the CB into the rail and down to the other end rail. The stroke happened so fast that I'm not sure he didn't drive the OB into the pocket. Either way it was a blatant foul.

Last night, my 6 team mate was in a tight 8 ball match with a 6 from the other team. CB flush to the rail, 8 ball about 1/4 to 1/2" from CB near direct in line with the opposite corner pocket. I saw the guy jacking up to take the shot and commit an obvious foul. This moron had ear plugs in and got all PO'd when I had to come to the table and wave out him. We got a knowledgeable observer, the moron continued with the same shot and had the foul called on him. I heard him cussing me and all PO'd because I'd interrupted him once he was ready to shoot. I suppose the fact he had the ear phones in and couldn't hear me when I first said something didn't enter into his limited thinking capability.

I'm wondering how other people handle this and I'm sure it comes up hundreds and thousands of time per day across the country. I've considered just ignoring it but I had a guy do this 3 times to me in a single game recently in one of the singles qualifiers. How do you explain to people, that clearly profess to not understand how this can possibly be a foul, in a way they can understand it? How would you handle these situations like I had the other night where the guy proceeded before I could even get a 3rd party observer?

I would add that I think it is a travesty and real negative towards the APA that this particular rule is covered minimally in their rules and they make no effort to clarify it with at least a video on their web site that could explain this quite clearly with some demonstrations and offer an alternative approach to acceptable taking the shot. Rather the ambiguity, it seems like it would make more sense to simply have a straight forward rule that absolutely requires hitting away from the line of the shot. I believe Valley Rules are clearer on this, not sure about BCA.

 

[BRussell]

It drives me crazy too. I think many good players legitimately don't understand it. A few minutes and a couple of demonstrations - outside of a competitive situation - make it clear. Spread the gospel as much as you can and take a few deep breaths when you run into ignoramuses or cheaters.

 

[StraightPoolIU]

I totally agree, and you're right it seems to come up at least once every week. That being said these are often the most controversial fouls to call because of 1. the ambiguity of the rules and lack of emphasis on it and 2. the nature of the foul being harder to see than say a bad hit on a wrong object ball. I still don't think either one of those is an excuse though. However, the lack of calls on these type of fouls isn't native to only the APA. I think it was in a match at the 2000 US Open Straight Pool Mike Sigel had a blatant push shot/double hit foul that wasn't called and this was a refereed match!

 

[Banks]

It isn't just the APA. I think it will occur more often as you have volunteer refs calling shots. In a BCA regional last fall, I think it was, a ref came over to watch a shot I was attempting. I hit it well, but the CB got loose and scratched. Before the scratch, the ref called a bad hit. Both my opponent and I looked at each other confused. After the ref walked away, we talked briefly and decided that next time we'll just watch the hits ourselves.

 

[jtompilot]

It's mostly a league for Bozo's

I quit the stupid league after a big verbal fight over that rule. I told the guy I was playing that if we not playing league rules, that shot would have been a foul. OMG, their captain jumped up and started laying into me. Later in the match I pushed thru on a couple of shots just to show those idiots.

Every now and then it happens gambling too. The science of pocket billiards should be required reading for anyone playing in a league. You can't have follow and draw on the same stroke for those Bozo's that don't know that........

 

[woody_968]

I think it was in a match at the 2000 US Open Straight Pool Mike Sigel had a blatant push shot/double hit foul that wasn't called and this was a refereed match!

I know exactly the shot you are talking about, and I thought the same thing. Either the ref didn't understand the rule, or he was afraid to call it on a big name during a run.

As for the original post, this is one of the many things that has kept me out of the apa.Like you said, it is understandable for the lower level players. My problem is they do not even TRY to educate them.

I used to play apa nine ball, which I enjoyed because it was fun to try to outrun the big spots. One thing I didn't like about it was no push after the break. This can really hammer a higher rated player if they get hooked after the break and end up giving up ball in hand to a lower player that needs so few balls. I asked the LO about it, and his reply was the rule would be too confusing for new players. Really? What kind of league thinks its players cant learn and understand rules? I think it is the same with double hits, those who run the league just don't want to deal with trying to teach people the proper rule.

Woody

 

[TheNewSharkster]

I really enjoy playing APA and understand many of the built in limitations. Far and away, my biggest frustration with APA is the constant double hit fouls that occur when the CB and OB are close together. It would be a rare evening where I don't see it happen more than once in our matches. It doesn't bother me much when I see relatively new players that are 2, 3 & 4's do it (although I think they should have this explained to them by their team captain) but when I see more experienced 6 and 7's blatantly violate the rule and make no attempt to do anything other than drive their cue stick through the CB & OB, it really frustrates me. Equally frustrating is to see one or more people on their team (or the Captain) who have been playing pool for decades and have to know this is a foul and make ZERO attempt to correct their team mates play.

We got butt raped in a critical match in the playoffs by this rule. We asked an observer to watch for it and stupidly didn't ask him to clarify his understanding of the rule. It was a blatant foul that allowed the shooter to win the game (next shot was 8 ball sitting in pocket). I asked the observer afterwards how it wasn't a foul and he seemed shocked that I thought it was. Upon further conversation, it was clear he had zero clue about double hits.

I was playing a 9 ball match this past Tuesday against a 7. He had a shot where there was less than 2" between the OB and CB with a slight cut and they were around 6" off the short rail on the opposite end of where the next ball in sequence was. I saw him lining up and it was obvious to me what he was going to do. I hopped up and warned him he was going to foul. He was a bit of a trashbag and started arguing with me. He then turned around, took the shot with a huge follow through that drove the CB into the rail and down to the other end rail. The stroke happened so fast that I'm not sure he didn't drive the OB into the pocket. Either way it was a blatant foul.

Last night, my 6 team mate was in a tight 8 ball match with a 6 from the other team. CB flush to the rail, 8 ball about 1/4 to 1/2" from CB near direct in line with the opposite corner pocket. I saw the guy jacking up to take the shot and commit an obvious foul. This moron had ear plugs in and got all PO'd when I had to come to the table and wave out him. We got a knowledgeable observer, the moron continued with the same shot and had the foul called on him. I heard him cussing me and all PO'd because I'd interrupted him once he was ready to shoot. I suppose the fact he had the ear phones in and couldn't hear me when I first said something didn't enter into his limited thinking capability.

I'm wondering how other people handle this and I'm sure it comes up hundreds and thousands of time per day across the country. I've considered just ignoring it but I had a guy do this 3 times to me in a single game recently in one of the singles qualifiers. How do you explain to people, that clearly profess to not understand how this can possibly be a foul, in a way they can understand it? How would you handle these situations like I had the other night where the guy proceeded before I could even get a 3rd party observer?

I would add that I think it is a travesty and real negative towards the APA that this particular rule is covered minimally in their rules and they make no effort to clarify it with at least a video on their web site that could explain this quite clearly with some demonstrations and offer an alternative approach to acceptable taking the shot. Rather the ambiguity, it seems like it would make more sense to simply have a straight forward rule that absolutely requires hitting away from the line of the shot. I believe Valley Rules are clearer on this, not sure about BCA.

It is against the rules to double hit in APA so the problem here isn't the league. The issue is you asked somebody to watch a shot that didn't know what consitutes a legal shot. Remember, if you have a 3rd party watch a shot you get to choose the person. Be sure to pick somebody that actually knows the rules.

 

[quadrary]

It is against the rules to double hit in APA so the problem here isn't the league. The issue is you asked somebody to watch a shot that didn't know what consitutes a legal shot. Remember, if you have a 3rd party watch a shot you get to choose the person. Be sure to pick somebody that actually knows the rules.

there are also those who mistakenly believe that the only way to avoid a double hit is to shoot away from it. There are at least five ways to shoot in a close proximity situation with a legal shot.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

Double hits goes with the turf in the APA. In my pool room, those league players don't ever call it because it's just part of the game to them and that is the culture.

At the end of the day, what sense is there in complaining over double hits in a league in which 80% of the players cannot even hold a cue correctly? Or who can't consistently run more than 3 balls? Where the bottom skill levels have no stroke at all? Where your odds of playing someone incapable of operating a motor vehicle legally due to intoxication are better than 50/50....

The APA's roots are a coin-op, bar league for bangers and drinkers. You take some of the worst elements of society, huddle them into teams - and put them in a competitive environment seeking out the dream of Las Vegas. It brings out ugliness. Battles over rules which don't make any sense to begin with. Cheating. Sandbagging. Ignorance. The poorest sportsmanship. Bad play all around.

The rampant double hits is probably the least problematic aspect of the APA.

 

[hang-the-9]

They need to be learned the rules is all.

Plus it's sometimes tough to call with cetainty a double hit or a push especially if many people that are called to watch do not know exactly what they are called over to watch.

There are plenty of players that take to heart the saying "rules were made to be broken", unless the other guy is at the table, then the saying is "anything in my imagination is a rule and the guy is breaking it".

 

[justadub]

I double hit during my match last night, picked the cue ball and handed it to my opponent who wasnt even looking. I had made the shot, so I turned to my scorekeeper and said "dead ball, double hit".

He was a bit surprised.

Not everyone in APA is a drunken rednecked bozo.

Although I can be any of those things, at the appropriate time

 

[nobcitypool]

there are also those who mistakenly believe that the only way to avoid a double hit is to shoot away from it. There are at least five ways to shoot in a close proximity situation with a legal shot.

Absolutely agree in the majority of the cases. In the two I described, the latter case didn't offer 5 options however with the Back of the CB flush to the rail. The one in the playoffs was similar, the only viable legal option was to hit away. The guy on Tuesday night not only made no effort to choose a legal option, he stroked in such a way that it appeared he knowingly cheated.

I'm thinking prior to ensuing matches, I'm going to discuss the rule with the other team's Captain and attempt to get agreement on the definition for this rule. I don't even care that much if he agrees to the correct definition, I just want to make sure my team gets to play by the same set of rules as the opponent does.

 

[holland]

there are also those who mistakenly believe that the only way to avoid a double hit is to shoot away from it. There are at least five ways to shoot in a close proximity situation with a legal shot.

Can you describe them? Even jacking up you can still get a double hit, if going directly into the object ball. Angling away avoids that, for the most part.

Does APA have a rule declaring frozen balls and it's relation to the push through?

 

[Banks]

Can you describe them? Even jacking up you can still get a double hit, if going directly into the object ball. Angling away avoids that, for the most part.

Does APA have a rule declaring frozen balls and it's relation to the push through?

Iirc, if the balls are frozen then you can shoot through them.

 

[BRussell]

there are also those who mistakenly believe that the only way to avoid a double hit is to shoot away from it. There are at least five ways to shoot in a close proximity situation with a legal shot.

I'd like to hear your 5 ways. I can think of shooting at an angle or stopping your tip very abruptly after contact, but that's really hard.. Maybe shooting to the side (i.e., with English), but I don't know if that works reliably.

 

[DallasHopps]

You take some of the worst elements of society, huddle them into teams - and put them in a competitive environment seeking out the dream of Las Vegas. It brings out ugliness. Battles over rules which don't make any sense to begin with.

Giggle...

 

[ChicagoJoe]

Can you describe them? Even jacking up you can still get a double hit, if going directly into the object ball. Angling away avoids that, for the most part.

Does APA have a rule declaring frozen balls and it's relation to the push through?

Our LO told us at city wides that pushing through frozen balls is a foul. He even went and looked it up. I always thought otherwise.


I played the same guy twice, once at challenge to get to city wides and then again at city wides. Both times i called a ref when i knew he was going to make a bad double hit and both times, the ref called it. He was irate with me. He wasn't even a lower level player either.

 

[hang-the-9]

Our LO told us at city wides that pushing through frozen balls is a foul. He even went and looked it up. I always thought otherwise.


I played the same guy twice, once at challenge to get to city wides and then again at city wides. Both times i called a ref when i knew he was going to make a bad double hit and both times, the ref called it. He was irate with me. He wasn't even a lower level player either.

I thought you could do that, one level stroke though the ball, you just can't push the cueball along for more than the regular hit would do it, so no steering the thing. I think that was a rule that was one way in the WPA rules and was changed not long ago. My memory of this could be wrong though. I know I have heard people in my USAPL league say that if the balls were frozen, you could hit the cueball any way and it was not a foul.

 

[bdorman]

"I feel your pain." -- William Jefferson Clinton

The group I play with at our community center double-hits all the time. I've mentioned to a few of the better players that technically it's a foul...but there's no sense in trying to call it on them; it would just cause hard feelings where there's really nothing at stake.

I don't know what I'd do if I were a league team captain. Your solution of talking with the other captain prior to the match sounds best. Maybe talk with the LO about educating the players about the rule for next season?

 

[GeoEnvi]

In my neck of the woods, I'm known far and wide as a guy who will call a double-hit - when appropriate - faster than my opponent takes to boil over.

BUT.... I claim innocence!....

- I blame Robert Byrne for my reputation. He put that section on "Fouls" in his book that shows how to detect a common double-hit.

- I blame Dr. Dave for giving me conviction in my accusations. His videos clearly demonstrate the double hits, the limited way of avoiding them (there are not 5 ways), and how to detect them by judging the reaction of the balls. No league banger has the right to overrule me unless he has also watched the Dr's videos.

- I blame the APA - MOST OF ALL - because there is no clear ruling on these hits in their Team Manual. "Double Hits" are illegal and result in BIH, but there is not a clear definition to rule on the double hit. Unlike, BCA which uses the 'chalk cube width space and no part of the cue ball can pass the spot previously occupied by the base of the object ball' rule. Some local operators but a ruling in the local by-laws, but the lack of a NATIONAL, CLEAR rule on the issue is the genesis of a lot of arguments.

(As they do for 'push shot fouls', if APA said that a double-hit is NOT a foul, all arguments end right there.)