APA Frustration with Constant Double Hit Violations

[zpele]

I really only call for someone to watch on a double hit if it is in a tournament situation. Don't sweat actual league play it never means much.

As for it being a foul when both balls are frozen that is entirely incorrect. The reality is you can put follow OR draw on a CB that is frozen to an OB and still make it a valid hit.

Dr. Dave has a slow motion video of it somewhere in his archives if anyone chooses to look it up.

If you live in an area where double hits like this happen often you are doing a disservice to the league players by not voicing it. The time to learn about something like this is not when you are playing a team from another area as that is likely a higher-level tournament.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

http://www.poolplayers.com/8-9-ball-Rules.pdf

Fouls - If any of the following fouls are committed, the
penalty is ball-in-hand for the incoming player. Make
certain you have ball-in-hand before you touch the cue ball
by confirming with your opponent. Ball-in-hand means
you are allowed to place the cue ball anywhere on the
table (with the exception of a scratch on the break which
results in ball-in-hand behind the head string) and shoot any
of your balls (or the 8, if all of your category of balls have
been pocketed). Even after having addressed the cue ball,
a player may, if not satisfied with the placement, make
further adjustments with the hand, cue stick or any other
reasonable piece of equipment. Afoul may be called only
if the player fouls while actually stroking at the cue ball,
meaning a double hit of the cue ball

 

[woody_968]

stopping your tip very abruptly after contact, but that's really hard.

It's not that hard if you know how to set up.

1. Set up with your cue just barely over the rail. so that your hand contacts the side of the table. If you set up like this with your tip at the edge of the cueball when your hand hits the table it stops the cue. But beware, your hand may hurt afterwards depending on the speed of your stroke

2. My preferred method. May be hard to explain in writing, I am going to try and make a video to post but I have not had time to do so. Above the table holding your cue as if you are shooting move the cue totally forward to a completely finished position. Meaning that your forearm and upper arm are touching, or as close as you can get them to touching. Now set up to the cueball with the tip close to the ball. You can now complete a stroke and as long as you DO NOT drop your elbow you can avoid the double hit. You can practice this by moving just to the side of the cueball to make sure your tip doesn't go too far forward.

With option 2 if you practice this a bit you would be surprised how hard and what kind of action you can get without fouling. The added bonus is it does not hurt your hand lol.

Woody

 

[BRussell]

http://www.poolplayers.com/8-9-ball-Rules.pdf

I don't play APA, but I went and looked this up too. It is so bizarre and so poorly worded. Why does it say "a foul may be called only..." when that's obviously not the only type of foul? And what the hell does "while stroking at the cue ball, meaning a double hit of the cue ball" even mean? They don't define a double hit. And why is this double hit foul only mentioned here, in the preface to the list of other fouls like not contacting a rail? Why doesn't double hit have its own numbered paragraph like all the other fouls? I play BCA, and at least they define a double hit clearly. So strange.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Iirc, if the balls are frozen then you can shoot through them.

This is correct. You can shoot straight thru. If there is a small space, the refs in Vegas *in theory* are looking for you to either elevate your cue (like 30 degrees), or shoot at an angle to the line of centers. Generally the difference between a good hit and foul is *IF YOU HAVE DONE THOSE THINGS*, not if you actually double hit the ball. I showed the refs how easy it is to follow the cue ball with a legal hit when the balls are like a chalks width apart. Also, I showed how I can jack up and disgustingly foul anyway lol. So the rule is not necessarily bad...I just wish refs could learn to recognize a real double hit.

This is a great video that all league players should be required to watch!:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UvSY4SXgG5Y#at=19

KMRUNOUT

 

[Luxury]

The op asked how to convince someone they are double hitting.

Have them heavily chalk their cue then have them shoot a double hit shot at the white part of a stripe ball. There will be two chalk marks from the double hit.

You're welcome.

 

[woody_968]

The op asked how to convince someone they are double hitting.

Have them heavily chalk their cue then have them shoot a double hit shot at the white part of a stripe ball. There will be two chalk marks from the double hit.

You're welcome.

Great suggestion here.

 

[BRussell]

This is correct. You can shoot straight thru.

I'd like to see a reference to this. Are you saying APA rules specify this, or some other rules? Because it seems to me that it's OK to shoot straight through.*

*Unless you double hit or push in which case it's a foul.

And of course if you hit straight through you're almost certain to double hit or push.

 

[CreeDo]

I get the frustration, but I believe apa actually has some provisions to prevent this that go above and beyond simply saying "don't hit the cue ball twice". There's some rule like... If the balls are a chalk width apart or less, you must elevate or shoot away from the CB.

Still happens all the time and i just warn people, "you're about to push, thank I'll get someone to watch, unless you wanna shoot away from it?" They usually change their alignment rather than insist on shooting straight into it.

It's hard to say if the issue is honesty or incompetence. Some people just get what happened instantly without anyone explaining it, others need to be taught to recognize the signs. call it every time and hopefully someone honest on their team backs you up. We're fortunate, in our league teammates don't hesitate to call it when they know the shooter fouled.


Posted from Azbilliards.com App for Android

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I'd like to see a reference to this. Are you saying APA rules specify this, or some other rules? Because it seems to me that it's OK to shoot straight through.*

*Unless you double hit or push in which case it's a foul.

And of course if you hit straight through you're almost certain to double hit or push.

Actually, it is near impossible to double hit if you go straight thru when the balls are frozen. Look at some high speed video and it will be crystal clear.

Here is what the APA rule book says (the important phrase is "push shots will not be called in this amateur league":
PUSH SHOTS: A push shot involves a situation where the cue ball is frozen to
the object ball. The problem faced by the shooter is to keep from pushing or
keeping the tip of the cue on the cue ball. It looks bad and is generally thought of
as illegal. Push shots are controversial. Push shots will not be called in this
amateur League. Even the professional players cannot agree about what is and
isn’t a push shot. In general, you can lessen your chances of being accused of
shooting a push shot by hitting the cue ball into the object ball at an angle, or by
elevating the butt of your cue about 30 degrees. This automatically cuts down the
length of the follow through which is the principal cause of a push shot. Players
who repeatedly guide the cue ball with force through object balls that are frozen
to the cue ball, using a level cue and long follow through, may be subject to a
sportsmanship penalty.

KMRUNOUT

 

[Bob Jewett]

Actually, it is near impossible to double hit if you go straight thru when the balls are frozen. Look at some high speed video and it will be crystal clear.

Here is what the APA rule book says (the important phrase is "push shots will not be called in this amateur league":
PUSH SHOTS: A push shot involves a situation where the cue ball is frozen to
the object ball. The problem faced by the shooter is to keep from pushing or
keeping the tip of the cue on the cue ball. It looks bad and is generally thought of
as illegal. ...

That is not the definition of "push shot" that is used in the WSR.

It seems to me that as a member of the BCA, the APA has a duty to use and promote the WSR.

 

[chevybob20]

I feel your pain. But, it's not just the APA. I play in the BCA and am constantly fighting the fallacy that if you jack up you can fram though the shot without a foul.

Here is why the double hit is not a foul in the APA. This is straight from the web site. If it's not on the list, it's not a foul. So, your opponents can fram through the shot to their hearts delight.

[B]These are the only fouls resulting in ball-in-hand. All other violations are
sportsmanship violations. The ball-in-hand fouls are as follows:[/B]

a. Anytime the cue ball goes in a pocket, on the floor, or otherwise ends up
off the playing surface.

b. Failure to hit a correct ball first. (A player who is shooting stripes
must hit a striped ball first.) The 8-ball is not neutral. In general, the
shooter has the advantage in close hit situations unless his opponent has
asked an outside party to watch the hit. Protect yourself. If you think
your opponent is getting ready to shoot a shot that could possibly be a
bad hit, stop him from shooting and get someone to watch the shot.
Potential bad hit situations are usually fairly obvious and protests and
disputes over these close situations can almost always be avoided if
someone is asked to watch the shot. If the outside party cannot
determine which ball was struck first, the call goes to the shooter.
Teams involved in repeatedly calling bad hits without outside party
verification may be subject to penalty points for disruptive
unsportsmanlike behavior.

c. Failure to hit a rail after contact. A rail must be hit by either
the cue ball or any other ball after the cue ball and the object
ball contact. A pocketed ball counts as a rail. Even if the ball bounces
back onto the playing surface, it is considered to have hit a rail, as the
pocket liner is part of the rail. A sentence that should answer many
questions is: ANY ball must go to a rail AFTER LEGAL contact.

d. The object ball is frozen to a rail and the player is contemplating playing a
safety (see SAFETY described in Definitions). In order for the following
frozen ball rule to be in effect, the opponent must declare that the ball is
frozen and the player should verify. Once it is agreed that the ball is
frozen, then the player must either drive the object ball to another rail (of
course, it could hit another ball, which in turn hits a rail), or drive the cue
ball to the rail after it touches the object ball. If the latter method of
safety is chosen then the player should take care that he quite obviously
strikes the object ball first. If the cue ball strikes the rail first or appears to
hit both the rail and ball simultaneously, then it would be a foul unless
either the cue ball or object ball went to some other rail.

e. It is illegal and, therefore, a foul to jump a cue ball over another ball by
cuing it up in the air (scooping) on purpose. Accidental miscuing is not a
foul unless other rules in this section are violated.

f. Receiving illegal aid (coaching from person(s) other than the coach)
during your turn at the table. To determine what is and is not considered
coaching, refer to COACHING in the General Rules Section of this
manual.

g. Causing even the slightest movement or altering the course of the cue
ball, even accidentally, is a foul. Even dropping the chalk on the cue ball
is a foul. It is not a foul, however, to accidentally move any other balls
(including the 8-ball) unless, during his turn at the table, a player moves a
ball and it in turn comes in contact with the cue ball. Any balls moved
accidentally during a shot must be replaced by the opponent after the
shot is over and all balls have stopped rolling. If it occurs before the shot,
it must be replaced before the shot is taken.
EXCEPTION: If an accidentally moved ball comes in contact with the
cue ball, creating a foul, no object ball will be replaced.

h. If, during the course of a shot, the cue ball does not touch anything.

i. Exercise caution when picking up or placing the cue ball in a ball-in-hand
situation. The cue ball is always alive. If the cue ball, or the hand
holding or moving it, touches another ball it is a cue ball foul and your
opponent has ball-in-hand. Be especially careful when you are picking up
or placing the cue ball in a tight spot.

j. The player or his coach (during a time-out) may place the cue ball in a
ball-in-hand situation. The same rule regarding placing the cue ball
applies to the coach as it applies to the player. If the player, or coach fouls
in the process of placing the cue ball, it will be ball-in-hand for the
opponent. Therefore, it should be the player’s choice if he wishes to place
the cue ball or allow his coach to do so.

 

[quadrary]

Can you describe them? Even jacking up you can still get a double hit, if going directly into the object ball. Angling away avoids that, for the most part.

Does APA have a rule declaring frozen balls and it's relation to the push through?

Ok here goes you screw up and get straight in on a shot and 1/2 inch from the object ball. 1st there is the hand stop you move your tip to about 1/8 inch from the cue ball get your cue down on the rail slide your rear hand forward till it touches the rail. Now adjust your grip so that your index finger is free. curl it like a c and make sure it is hanging down against the side of the rail now draw back and stroke letting your finger hit the rail this stops the follow through but the give in your hand allows you shoot with less than 1/4 th inch follow through. More later
caution do not shoot hard

 

[KMRUNOUT]

That is not the definition of "push shot" that is used in the WSR.

It seems to me that as a member of the BCA, the APA has a duty to use and promote the WSR.

I agree completely.

Remember that a lot of motivation for some of the APA rules is all about the *ease of enforcement*. Most league players have no clue about this topic, so they really need to go with a standard that is easy for anyone to implement. I get where they are coming from, but think it would be better to simply use their position as "giant in the industry" to educate the players better.

KMRUNOUT

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

Here is why the double hit is not a foul in the APA. This is straight from the web site. If it's not on the list, it's not a foul. So, your opponents can fram through the shot to their hearts delight.

[B]These are the only fouls resulting in ball-in-hand. All other violations are
sportsmanship violations. The ball-in-hand fouls are as follows:[/B]

g. Causing even the slightest movement or altering the course of the cue
ball, even accidentally, is a foul. Even dropping the chalk on the cue ball
is a foul. It is not a foul, however, to accidentally move any other balls
(including the 8-ball) unless, during his turn at the table, a player moves a
ball and it in turn comes in contact with the cue ball. Any balls moved
accidentally during a shot must be replaced by the opponent after the
shot is over and all balls have stopped rolling. If it occurs before the shot,
it must be replaced before the shot is taken.
EXCEPTION: If an accidentally moved ball comes in contact with the
cue ball, creating a foul, no object ball will be replaced.

That's the rule you use to enforce a double hit in the APA. Glad I don't have to count on you being a ref.

 

[Bob Jewett]

That's the rule you use to enforce a double hit in the APA. Glad I don't have to count on you being a ref.

I don't quite understand this point. There seems to be no rule in the APA rule book against double hits. Here are the official rules on the official APA site: http://cdn4.poolplayers.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/2012_Rules-Booklet-FINAL_LR.pdf

If double hits are legal why not triple hits? If you are hooked, shoot the cue ball out into the open, then before it stops, hit it again to where you will have position, and then before it stops shoot in the ball you played position on. So far as I can see, there is no rule against this.

Many rule sets for pool allow you to contact the cue ball only once on each shot, but the APA rules allow far more creativity.

 

[BRussell]

I don't quite understand this point. There seems to be no rule in the APA rule book against double hits. Here are the official rules on the official APA site: http://cdn4.poolplayers.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/2012_Rules-Booklet-FINAL_LR.pdf

If double hits are legal why not triple hits? If you are hooked, shoot the cue ball out into the open, then before it stops, hit it again to where you will have position, and then before it stops shoot in the ball you played position on. So far as I can see, there is no rule against this.

Many rule sets for pool allow you to contact the cue ball only once on each shot, but the APA rules allow far more creativity.

They do mention double hits in the preface paragraph to the list of fouls. Not sure why it's listed there. And they say it's also called "double-clutching," as if that clears things up .

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

I don't quite understand this point. There seems to be no rule in the APA rule book against double hits. Here are the official rules on the official APA site: http://cdn4.poolplayers.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/2012_Rules-Booklet-FINAL_LR.pdf

If double hits are legal why not triple hits? If you are hooked, shoot the cue ball out into the open, then before it stops, hit it again to where you will have position, and then before it stops shoot in the ball you played position on. So far as I can see, there is no rule against this.

Many rule sets for pool allow you to contact the cue ball only once on each shot, but the APA rules allow far more creativity.

Actually read page 5, rule 9. Double hit aka double clutching as they refer to it. Still altering the path of the cue ball in your scenario applies still.

 

[nobcitypool]

I don't quite understand this point. There seems to be no rule in the APA rule book against double hits. Here are the official rules on the official APA site: http://cdn4.poolplayers.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/2012_Rules-Booklet-FINAL_LR.pdf

If double hits are legal why not triple hits? If you are hooked, shoot the cue ball out into the open, then before it stops, hit it again to where you will have position, and then before it stops shoot in the ball you played position on. So far as I can see, there is no rule against this.

Many rule sets for pool allow you to contact the cue ball only once on each shot, but the APA rules allow far more creativity.

True and untrue. Here is the wording from the APA rulebook that mentions doublehits:

A foul may be called
only if the player fouls while actually stroking at the cue
ball, meaning a double hit of the cue ball (sometimes
called double clutching)

Clearly, this states a double hit of the cue ball is a foul. However, if you read the section prior to it, the implication (implication being the key word) is this is in reference to when addressing the ball after ball in hand and placing the cue ball where you wish it to be located. As someone else pointed out, it isn't one of the fouls that has a number before the description.

Very vague. Very ambiguous. And given that, IMHO, incredibly poor and stupid.

 

[BRussell]

That's the rule you use to enforce a double hit in the APA. Glad I don't have to count on you being a ref.

Are you sure double hits aren't covered in the "one foot on the floor" rule?