APA Rankings

[FLICKit]

Actually FLICKit, I said the exact same thing to my guys that night even one step further saying that even if he was giving me weight it wouldn't have mattered. I didn't shoot that bad but he was on fire. He was a great guy and we talked after the match. The table was awful but I would never use that as an excuse because we both had to play in the same conditions. He kicked my ass, period, and in no way would I accuse this guy of sandbagging.

Cool!

In the longrun that's the kind of attitude that usually breeds success. The ability to face up to reality with a good spirit. Then in turn it manifests itself as knowledge and desire to strengthen your game, and be ready and prepared for him the next time around. In simpler words, makes you a better player.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I think there is a lot less sandbagging than is perceived. Since sandbagging is a very real factor, when a person has a good or bad night within their normal range of play, the opponent automatically assumes sandbagging. When in fact, for most people it is just having a good or a bad night.

Cats, I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, I think the biggest problem in the APA isn't sandbagging but the fear of it. EVERYONE is ready to point fingers but in all reality, the serious teams really do their best to keep their noses clean.

I left the APA for a number of reasons and I have to admit, I really enjoyed myself on good days and miss it sometimes. However, the bad really outweighed the good and I ended up having little choice in the matter. The bottom line for my leaving had to do with the fact that many players in the area I live in took it upon themselves to try and shape the league as they saw fit. They would exclude me from qualifiers and/or complain about my existence in the league even though I was ranked as high as could be. Having attended the Individual Championships in Las Vegas twice, I knew exactly how I stood nationally and knew that I completely belonged where I was but for whatever reason, some idiot in a bar who can run no more than 3 balls thinks he's got a right to an opinion. After a while, it just wears on you.

 

[Koop]

Cool!

In the longrun that's the kind of attitude that usually breeds success. The ability to face up to reality with a good spirit. Then in turn it manifests itself as knowledge and desire to strengthen your game, and be ready and prepared for him the next time around. In simpler words, makes you a better player.

Agree. I can't recall ever losing a match and being mad at the person I played. That emotion is usually reserved for myself unless the guy just kicks the crap out of me like what happened Monday night. Then I just smile and buy him a beer

 

[Coop1701]

FLICKit,

I agree. And Tim does a good job at keeping the handicaps in check. And I have never known him to intentionally put someone's handicap at an incorrect level. The league system there runs pretty smoothly. There are a few teams in town, though, that do sandbag. Tim just makes it harder for them to get away with it.

Mike

Hey Mike... I'd have to say everything runs pretty smooth here. Plus we have a good division rep too. Which really helps out in iffy situations. I didn't mean to start a debate on sandbagging. I was curious to know if they handicapped level could be adjusted, almost the same way when I use to play Team Tennis. You had skill levels that were much more accurate and complete. Just a thought....

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Hey Mike... I'd have to say everything runs pretty smooth here. Plus we have a good division rep too. Which really helps out in iffy situations. I didn't mean to start a debate on sandbagging. I was curious to know if they handicapped level could be adjusted, almost the same way when I use to play Team Tennis. You had skill levels that were much more accurate and complete. Just a thought....

I know that the APA does have manual overrides but for the most part, League Operators will allow the system to do its own thing. Honestly, it's in an LO's interest to not do manual overrides often since typical regions can have hundreds if not, thousands of players. In Manhattan back when I played, there were 120 teams. That means there were 300 matches per week! To keep track of all of them would be as difficult as a captain keeping track of each match each member of his team played for an entire year. Not even talking about logistics, no LO is going to be able to make a valued opinion about 99.9% of the matches worthy enough for an adjustment. As is the case in any large handicapped league, the system needs to be allowed to run itself.

 

[catscradle]

Cats, I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, I think the biggest problem in the APA isn't sandbagging but the fear of it. EVERYONE is ready to point fingers but in all reality, the serious teams really do their best to keep their noses clean.

I left the APA for a number of reasons and I have to admit, I really enjoyed myself on good days and miss it sometimes. However, the bad really outweighed the good and I ended up having little choice in the matter. The bottom line for my leaving had to do with the fact that many players in the area I live in took it upon themselves to try and shape the league as they saw fit. They would exclude me from qualifiers and/or complain about my existence in the league even though I was ranked as high as could be. Having attended the Individual Championships in Las Vegas twice, I knew exactly how I stood nationally and knew that I completely belonged where I was but for whatever reason, some idiot in a bar who can run no more than 3 balls thinks he's got a right to an opinion. After a while, it just wears on you.

Nobody loves a 7 (8-ball) or a 9 (9-ball).
Your own captain frets about fitting you in and from every opponent the refrain is that you're too good for the APA. Even at that, I only wish I were good enough to have the problem.

 

[theoneandonly]

apa league rep

I said it once and ill say it again around my parts sandbagging is everything. Two weeks ago I played against my league reps team. I played the league rep myself. Anyway I am a 6 in the 8ball standings. The rep is a 5. He played safety after safety against me. I played maybe 3 safties total in the match. I end up spanking him and what does he do? At the end of the night I go to sign the scoresheet and see that he has marked me down for 9 defensive shots. The fat loser marked me down with 9 defensive shots because i beat him. WE were playing on a 7 footers too. I said something to him right there and he backed up his marks on the sheet. I know that some regular apa players make false markups, but the league rep did it. I have a problem with that. I play in the apa to have fun once a week with my friends. I try not to take it too serious since it is all bullshit anyway. I just think the APA is sandbagging heaven and you are rewarded most of the time for doing so.

 

[catscradle]

I said it once and ill say it again around my parts sandbagging is everything. Two weeks ago I played against my league reps team. I played the league rep myself. Anyway I am a 6 in the 8ball standings. The rep is a 5. He played safety after safety against me. I played maybe 3 safties total in the match. I end up spanking him and what does he do? At the end of the night I go to sign the scoresheet and see that he has marked me down for 9 defensive shots. The fat loser marked me down with 9 defensive shots because i beat him. WE were playing on a 7 footers too. I said something to him right there and he backed up his marks on the sheet. I know that some regular apa players make false markups, but the league rep did it. I have a problem with that. I play in the apa to have fun once a week with my friends. I try not to take it too serious since it is all bullshit anyway. I just think the APA is sandbagging heaven and you are rewarded most of the time for doing so.

Where do you play out of in Lowell? I play the double jeopardy league on Sundays out of Country Club USA in Chelmsford.
We've a league rep on our team, but he is a 7 and a 9 and as honest as the day is long so he isn't who you're talking about.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I said it once and ill say it again around my parts sandbagging is everything. Two weeks ago I played against my league reps team. I played the league rep myself. Anyway I am a 6 in the 8ball standings. The rep is a 5. He played safety after safety against me. I played maybe 3 safties total in the match. I end up spanking him and what does he do? At the end of the night I go to sign the scoresheet and see that he has marked me down for 9 defensive shots. The fat loser marked me down with 9 defensive shots because i beat him. WE were playing on a 7 footers too. I said something to him right there and he backed up his marks on the sheet. I know that some regular apa players make false markups, but the league rep did it. I have a problem with that. I play in the apa to have fun once a week with my friends. I try not to take it too serious since it is all bullshit anyway. I just think the APA is sandbagging heaven and you are rewarded most of the time for doing so.

Well, the APA has a specific definition for a "Defensive shot" that doesn't necessarily fall under the same defintion of a safety. In the APA, ANY shot that can be viewed as lacking an offensive objective can be deemed defensive. In otherwords, if you kick at a ball with a speed that would not be sufficient to pocket a ball, even if the hit were legal, it's a defensive shot. This actually comes up more often than most people realize. No matter what the play is, if pocketing a ball was not the intent of the shooter and can easily be seen as such, it gets marked as defense.

 

[FLICKit]

I said it once and ill say it again around my parts sandbagging is everything. Two weeks ago I played against my league reps team. I played the league rep myself. Anyway I am a 6 in the 8ball standings. The rep is a 5. He played safety after safety against me. I played maybe 3 safties total in the match. I end up spanking him and what does he do? At the end of the night I go to sign the scoresheet and see that he has marked me down for 9 defensive shots. The fat loser marked me down with 9 defensive shots because i beat him. WE were playing on a 7 footers too. I said something to him right there and he backed up his marks on the sheet. I know that some regular apa players make false markups, but the league rep did it. I have a problem with that. I play in the apa to have fun once a week with my friends. I try not to take it too serious since it is all bullshit anyway. I just think the APA is sandbagging heaven and you are rewarded most of the time for doing so.

You're a bit all over the map. First you're talking about sandbagging (but give no examples of anyone playing below their level), then you're talking about safeties, then you're talking about scorekeeping, then you try to sum it up as sandbagging (but still no example of playing below level).

Cheating may be a more accurate representation of what you're trying to express. As has been stated, unfortunately cheating is always a part of human nature. But sometimes human nature also, too easily accuses someone else of cheating, even when they're not.

Sometimes it's very difficult to know for sure, until you gather all the information - i.e. hearing both sides of the story for starters, and any other corroborating points of views. Even this, is not always 100% accurate.

Sometimes people just want to gripe, no matter what the actual facts are. That's way too common amongst some humans. Usually they suffer the effects of those ills in all their life, so in essence they make their own destiny.

Now, without having any understanding of what actually happened in your event, there are some explanations that would be rational based on what you've relayed.

For example, if the scorekeeper saw shots taken where there was no intention on making a ball, then it is legitimate to mark it as a safety. Even if the shooter had no intention of trying to leave it difficult or hook their opponent. Not intending to make a shot, would be marked as a defensive.

Information that would also be noteworthy in your scenario, is when those defensive shots were marked. If they were marked during the course of each game, then odds are they were legitimate. If, as you imply, they were marked down, only after it was plain to see that you were the victor, then that would be cheating, and should be rectified by someone able to handle complaints to the appropriate people (LO in this case) in a rationale manner. Hotheads would often prefer to be right about being mad, than to actually resolve the situation. Cooler heads can create positive resolution to such issues.

 

[jjinfla]

Without a doubt there is no sandbagging in the APA simply because in order to sandbag the player would have to have some sort of intelligence and of course we do not see that in pool players.

And I wish I had a dollar everytime I heard the word "sandbagger".

Anyway, my observations in APA 9-ball:

If you win your matches you will be moved up.
If you lose your matches you will be moved down, maybe. I'll explain later.
Your skill level will bounce all over the place until you reach 20 games in the computer.
Innings count. The fewer you have in a match the better you are. But they only count so many innings in a match so getting 30, 40 50, etc innings is meaningless since they will only post a maximum amount for your skill level. 18 seems to be a nice number.
When the data is fed into the great computer it punches out a number for that match. That number is compared to the other numbers for your last 20 matches. Then it only looks at the ten highest numbers and takes that average and your SL is based on that.

So if you play terrible for 8 straight weeks and don't get lowered it is because you played so bad those games don't fit into the top ten that the computer looks at.

Now if you play really great then that number stays at the top of your best ten for 20 weeks.

I know a guy, former teammate, who was moved up to a SL5. he wanted to be a 4 so bad that he lost for 9 straight weeks (stupid) and he was moved down to a 4. Then in the final game of the session he won his match and was moved right back up to a 5. Now he is stuck with a SL5 for the LTC coming up next saturday.

To keep a person from sandbagging it is a must for your scorekeeper to mark all defensive shots. A defensive shot is where there is no intent to make a ball. They take innings away from your opponent. So if he had 25 innings and 3 defensive shots. Since they only input a maximum amount of innings, say 18 and the 3 defensive shots are subtracted he really only had 15 innings and the computer thinks he is a great player. And missing your shots is one of the ways to sandbag.

And yes the LO can raise or lower SL's if he observes a player and believes that he should be playing at a different level. Nothing wrong with that. On the back of your scoresheet there is a remarks section where you can indicate if a player is much better than his SL indicates. I doubt if anybody does it though.

And of course a LO can have someone else do the observing for him.

You most likely can maintain a SL by just winning with a 12 or 13. Or drop by losing with a 7 or 8. But is it worth it?

It will catch up to you anyway.

LTC on the 21st and my 1 got moved up to a 2. My 8 wants to be a 9. Two 4's got moved up to 5's. My 4 is schitzo - sometimes the 2 in him shows up; sometimes the 5. And last night my 2 won - I sure hope she didn't go to a 3.

Jake

 

[FLICKit]

Well, the APA has a specific definition for a "Defensive shot" that doesn't necessarily fall under the same defintion of a safety. In the APA, ANY shot that can be viewed as lacking an offensive objective can be deemed defensive. In otherwords, if you kick at a ball with a speed that would not be sufficient to pocket a ball, even if the hit were legal, it's a defensive shot. This actually comes up more often than most people realize. No matter what the play is, if pocketing a ball was not the intent of the shooter and can easily be seen as such, it gets marked as defense.

Very well stated.

 

[Barbara]

Thanks Jake! That explains a lot. So 18 is the maximum of innings? For what s/l?

Barbara

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

And last night my 2 won - I sure hope she didn't go to a 3.

Jake

This has got to be the worst thing about the APA. You have a beginner who you hope doesn't improve for fear that it will mess up your team's chances of winning. How backwards is that???

 

[jjinfla]

.

I have to get my glasses changed. I didn't realize that your name had an L I in it. I thought it was just one letter.

Jake

 

[jjinfla]

Thanks Jake! That explains a lot. So 18 is the maximum of innings? For what s/l?

Barbara

I don't know Barbara, maybe a 4, I really am just trying to draw some logical conclusions. But when you think about it it does seem logical.

Jake

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Thanks Jake! That explains a lot. So 18 is the maximum of innings? For what s/l?

Barbara

Hey Barbara, actually Jakes was simply guessing. There is a maximum number of innings per game but not per match and it applies to all handicaps.

 

[jjinfla]

What the heck Jude, you have to play with the hand you are dealt. A good solid 2 is better than a borderline 3 going into the playoffs now isn't it? Let her go up during or after the playoffs. Having to sink 25 balls in one night would scare her to death.

LOL

Jake

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

What the heck Jude, you have to play with the hand you are dealt. A good solid 2 is better than a borderline 3 going into the playoffs now isn't it? Let her go up during or after the playoffs. Having to sink 25 balls in one night would scare her to death.

LOL

Jake

But that's what I mean. You're focused on winning within the system rather than teammate's progression. I mean, don't get me wrong, I know why the rules are the way they are which is why these things happen but listen to yourself. Your not interested in pool. You're interested in the APA. When someone goes up, you should congratulate them, offer encouragement. Instead, you're worried that your team's chances are at risk.


I want it noted that when I captained an APA team, I had an s/l 4 who was tearing up the league in her first season. When she was bumped to the 5, we did nothing but congratulate her. We knew it was coming and were prepared to reshape the team, if needed. NEVER would I have impeded her progress because of team interests. Having one's rating go up is worthy of merit. That s/l 4 was Jennifer Barretta. I'm not going to go so far as to say her success had anything to do with me. That's really irrelevant. The point is that how you treat other people's progress speaks volumes and can have potential ramifications. I had no idea that Jennifer was eventually going to be playing in the WPBA (we hoped, though) but by no means was I going to keep her at an s/l 4 so that we might have a chance at Las Vegas! Looking back on it now illustrates how ridiculous a thought it would have been.

 

[Skess]

While we were in Vegas for Nationals, my wife was raised from a 2 to a 3 after beating a 4 on the hill with a gazillion innings. I asked the desk if they could look it over since she had not played well for the summer before we went out. They explained that in her last 20 matches, she was 9-11. Her record in the 10 best scores from those 20 was 9-1. When she beat the 4 in Vegas, that made her 10-10 in her last 20, but 10-0 in her 10 best scores.

Now I'm not sure why 9-1 didn't get her moved. My LO told me before we left for Vegas that she was right on the bubble (I couldn't understand how with the way she had been playing) and that I should consider telling the TD to move her up before the tournament started. That would avoid us getting a raise against us. I wasn't sure how much we were going to play her, so I took a chance and left her as a 2. In the end, it didn't matter. We managed to make it to the semi's before we lost to the eventual champion and she lost her only match as a 3.

So as Jake was saying, losing or dumping a long string of matches really doesn't accomplish much other than hurting your team. Your 10 best scores are still going to be the ones that count toward your handicap. Other than new players who haven't had alot of scores entered in the system yet, I see very few people in our area dropping without having a couple of bad sessions in a row.