APA Rating Question

i have no knowledge of how they handicap but based on my experience....its not how many you win.....its how you win.

i have a 2 that averaged 70 % win record 2 sessions in a row and never moved up. this session he is at 50 % and guess what ? he moved up to a 3. how you ask ? by beating another 2 15-5 and skunking a 1 20-0 in the same night. had to use him as a replay that night and when we played this week i saw he was raised.

the same thing happened to me. i only had a 47% record at the time but just had an amazing week a few months ago.and was raised to a 6.

fri night skunked a 4 20-0
sat beat a 5 19-1
sun beat a 9 16-4

the following week i was raised. if i had won all the above matches 12-8 i am pretty sure i would still be a 5. so far i am maintaining a 50% record as a 6. almost all my losses would have been wins if i was still a 5. last night i lost to a 4 by 31-45. if i had been a 5 i would have won 38-22.
 
SkyscraperChris said:
Little tip for you: Put the following into 'google' (although I don't know why Google is in quotes)

how to not be a jackass on forums

You are welcome.
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Skyscraper Chris has become one of my favorites

People are not tech savvy or maybe there new to the forum if you dont gave Input stfu and carry on

League operator not Bruce Patton near at louis area is it? Handicaps got very dodgy in that area
 
To add....taking more innings to win will not effect your handicap.
Here's a quick rundown of how it works....

Say a 5 has an 80 percent win average.
That 5 is expected to win games in an average of 3.2 innings or less.
If that 5 wins the game in 5 innings, after safeties are deducted, 3.2 innings is what is entered in
the record. It doesn't matter if you took 20 innings to beat the guy, 3.2 is entered.

A 5 with a 40 percent win average is expected to win in 3.6 innings

This is what the APA calls the applied score. It is set up to not allow anyone to go down in handicap
and keep a winning percentage.
 
daphish1 said:
Always wonder why people like to say search a topic on a discussion forum. This isn't a question/answer site, it's a site for "discussing" pool. :eek:
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Exactly. If we can't discuss things that have already been discussed before there is no reason for the site to exist. It can live as just an archive for google indexing...

I don't get why people can't just move along if they aren't interested in the discussion.
 
To me it all seems very simple. The idea of a handicap competition is to give everyone an equal opportunity to win. If your win rate is over 50%, your S/L needs to be raised, if your win rate is below 50% your S/L needs to be lowered.
It seems like the APA weights innings to heavily, I have had many games playing a BCA B level opponent last 1 or 2 innings and just as many playing a AA last 3 or 4 innings. You expect the higher S/L player to break better and open up the table making it easier to pot balls. On the other hand the lower S/L players often have large or many clusters after the break and also tend to reorganize the table frequently, often tying up balls that you just put much effort into freeing up. I think this is why it seems like so many players play up to or down to the level of their opponent, it seems like the lower S/L player has a little more effect on how many innings the game lasts because of this.
 
fastone371 said:
To me it all seems very simple. The idea of a handicap competition is to give everyone an equal opportunity to win. If your win rate is over 50%, your S/L needs to be raised, if your win rate is below 50% your S/L needs to be lowered.
It seems like the APA weights innings to heavily, I have had many games playing a BCA B level opponent last 1 or 2 innings and just as many playing a AA last 3 or 4 innings. You expect the higher S/L player to break better and open up the table making it easier to pot balls. On the other hand the lower S/L players often have large or many clusters after the break and also tend to reorganize the table frequently, often tying up balls that you just put much effort into freeing up. I think this is why it seems like so many players play up to or down to the level of their opponent, it seems like the lower S/L player has a little more effect on how many innings the game lasts because of this.
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That's about my strategy when playing a clearly lower level opponent or someone that does not know how to play the right shots or I see making position or pattern mistakes. I miss, let them run a few open balls till they all of a sudden come up to an issue, most of the time they do something risky that opens up the run out for me. May take a few more turns at the table, but I'm not in a rush. "you shot nice buddy, some good shot making, you only had 2 balls of yours left, it was a close one" hehe If a player tells you that it was a "close" game based on how many balls he has left, those are often the toughest players to teach since they will never think they lost because you were better, you were just lucky or all the games were close so they are just about as good.
 
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hang-the-9 said:
The full APA calculations are a trade secret, but I would guess if you manage your number of innings, misses and safes you can play the system pretty well. Just never call a safe, play crazy .05% chance shots, you miss, you get the benefit of a miss since you must be a low ranked player for missing so much. "Accidental" safes will also help with inning count, which counts for the ranking. Took me 5 innings to win, but of course my opponent just happened to be hooked every time I missed, oops what bad luck, sorry.

A 75% win at a rating should move you up even if you win every match hill hill.

You can be moved up at a lower win % if your wins were strong and your losses were close. If you won 4 games by a score of 4-1 an lost 3 by a score of 3-4, and had decent innings for each game, you could be moved up.
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You do not have to call a safe to have a safe marked on you. EVERY shot where you are not attempting to make a ball is a safe regardless of what you say to the score keeper; Just trying to get a good hit after being "stuck" is a defensive shot. Hitting the ball(s) in a way as to not disturb a cluster without making a ball, is a def. Missing your shot, but giving you a strategic advantage is a def. If you are a good enough shot and make a ball but "stick" yourself where you can't make a ball, you may get a def marked as well (believe it or not there are 6's that pull this one). They especially start doing it after they are up a couple games so they can start running innings up. That kind of goes with your taking the low % shot. If a player that is a 4 or better takes a shot with a much greater degree of difficulty over other easier and better "out" shots it will be marked as a safe.

Playing in Vegas and playing people from all over the country in Mini's I can tell you that the SL6's were pretty accurately rated. Of the 15 or so different people I played there was one guy that beat me 5 games in 4 innings with me having a total of 4 shots (3 after being hooked, 1 intentional safety by him), so he probably should be a 7. All the other matches were pretty evenly played even if the final score was lopsided.

Bottom line is that it comes down to your score keepers not paying attention and marking innings/defensive shoots as they should be. Teams should be keeping individual sheets, they should not be matching up innings and everything after every match as this is typically done to the sandbaggers advantage since most people will add an inning assuming they weren't paying attention instead of making the other remove one. For that reason I pay attention and I will not yield on my innings if I have less marked and I never yield on my def marks. If they question or complain about it, as some do, I remind them what a def shot is. Even if I am wrong one or 2 a match here or there it will average out over time. I have even had it where one player had 19 defs marked on my sheet and they only had 4 or something like that. Their argument was that he kept getting hooked. Which is true, but he keep just trying to get a good hit or hooking back because he couldn't get out still and didnt want to open the opponent up by trying to make his ball and failing.
 
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Gotboost95 said:
And I get at least 1 if not 2 table runs/break and runs a week for my APA league. Race to 5. Since last August I've only lost 1 APA 8 ball match in about 30 matches.
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Then you are very strong 7 in my area. I don't know of one that runs 2 racks in 5 games very often at all.
 
I thought Mike Sigel's system made more sense than anything else I've seen. I don't know whether his league will be successful but I liked the format.

People game the system in the APA and it isn't limited to the APA.
 
Skippy27 said:
Then you are very strong 7 in my area. I don't know of one that runs 2 racks in 5 games very often at all.
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Not sure what are your from. But here in the northwest I'm a very strong 6 and just became a 7 a few weeks ago. I wouldn't say I'm a strong 7 at all. In fact I would say I'm a high B very low A speed. Just being straight up. I started 3 years ago as a APA 2. How does it go "started form the bottom now we here".

I would say your a little defense marking heavy. If I play a tougher shot to not leave my opponent straight in on their last ball I shouldn't be marked with a defense. The rules state if you attempt to pocket a ball it's an offense. Doesn't matter if you try a 3 rail shot to get a good leave on your next ball or leave them unable to pocket theirs. It shouldn't be marked.

Back on topic though. I have heard of a couple of league operators in the Chicago to Northeast area that have been slapped a couple times for rating manipulation for national tournaments. Same teams that have gone to nationals and finished high up multiple years and seem to just walk thru it. So sometimes league operators would rather rank a player higher and make them suffer then get in trouble for having underrated players. You'll see people complain that they seem to get bumped up in rating shortly before heading out to nationals. I went up one rating both the last 2 years weeks before nationals.
 
alstl said:
I thought Mike Sigel's system made more sense than anything else I've seen. I don't know whether his league will be successful but I liked the format.

People game the system in the APA and it isn't limited to the APA.
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Is the Mike Sigel system posted somewhere? Are you talking about the Fargo rating system? If so it looks very interesting. Be nice to have many different leagues use the same system across the board.

I'd have to agree. There are people up here that even work the BCA system. The only way to move up in rating I believe is doing well at Regionals or Nationals. finishing top few %. But I know several people local that don't play in them or at all. Just to keep from moving up to master. Lots of local tourny's are no master allowed. And some team events are only 1 master allowed. So it's a way to stack the team event.
 
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Gotboost95 said:
Not sure what are your from. But here in the northwest I'm a very strong 6 and just became a 7 a few weeks ago. I wouldn't say I'm a strong 7 at all. In fact I would say I'm a high B very low A speed. Just being straight up. I started 3 years ago as a APA 2. How does it go "started form the bottom now we here".

I would say your a little defense marking heavy. If I play a tougher shot to not leave my opponent straight in on their last ball I shouldn't be marked with a defense. The rules state if you attempt to pocket a ball it's an offense. Doesn't matter if you try a 3 rail shot to get a good leave on your next ball or leave them unable to pocket theirs. It shouldn't be marked.

Back on topic though. I have heard of a couple of league operators in the Chicago to Northeast area that have been slapped a couple times for rating manipulation for national tournaments. Same teams that have gone to nationals and finished high up multiple years and seem to just walk thru it. So sometimes league operators would rather rank a player higher and make them suffer then get in trouble for having underrated players. You'll see people complain that they seem to get bumped up in rating shortly before heading out to nationals. I went up one rating both the last 2 years weeks before nationals.
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I don't know where in the NW you are, but I've only seen two APA players in the seattle area who might be running tables at the rate you claim.
 
ElCorazonFrio said:
I don't know where in the NW you are, but I've only seen two APA players in the seattle area who might be running tables at the rate you claim.
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I live in Portland area. And I can probably name a dozen off the top of my head that can. And some that can run more then that. All I said was I'm about at a 2 table runs or break and runs per 10 racks. I get 1 to 2 a week for my 5 game matches. I play/practice 5 days week though. I said I need to be better to win in Vegas as a 7. You realize that in APA a table run is defined as running all 7 of your balls plus the eight. Doesn't matter if it's 10 innings. I can play 6 defenses and 2 misses and then run the table. I do that against lower rated players all the time. push balls towards the corners and then run out once everything of mine is open.

The original poster said I was at low pro speed. 2 per 10 racks of 8ball 7' table isn't even half of pro speed. Get on fastlenny69 youtube page and watch the pros play 8ball on a 7' table. They are probably running 8 or 9 per 10 racks. Might only miss one shot or dry break once in a match and they're cooked.

Just because you guys are APA 4's and 5's and might only get 1 or 2 table runs a session doesn't mean other can't.
 
Gotboost95 said:
Just because you guys are APA 4's and 5's and might only get 1 or 2 table runs a session doesn't mean other can't.
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First off, I am a 6.

Second, we clearly live in different cultures as you just completely redefined what a run is based on the impression I got from your statement. That impression was that you RAN the table by either breaking and running or by your opponent breaking, eventually missing and then you clearing it out. Now you are going to bring in multiple innings because you either played defense or even missed a couple. At that point we can say some 4's and even 5's can "run" the table with frequency.

Third, to your point of me being defensive heavy. Maybe I am, but if I see you try to make a ball appropriate for you skill (your 3 rail bank to get shape) then it is not a safety. Having a 2 way shot that would leave you good if you made it but leave your opponent bad if you missed is not a safety. Trying a tough shot knowing if you miss you will leave your opponent good is completely the opposite of a safety. However, if you then walk over to your table and are questioned on it and I hear you say to them..... "I was knew I wasnt going to make it so I tried to hide it behind here" - safety marked. That is the part of paying attention.
 
Skippy27 said:
First off, I am a 6.

Second, we clearly live in different cultures as you just completely redefined what a run is based on the impression I got from your statement. That impression was that you RAN the table by either breaking and running or by your opponent breaking, eventually missing and then you clearing it out. Now you are going to bring in multiple innings because you either played defense or even missed a couple. At that point we can say some 4's and even 5's can "run" the table with frequency.

Third, to your point of me being defensive heavy. Maybe I am, but if I see you try to make a ball appropriate for you skill (your 3 rail bank to get shape) then it is not a safety. Having a 2 way shot that would leave you good if you made it but leave your opponent bad if you missed is not a safety. Trying a tough shot knowing if you miss you will leave your opponent good is completely the opposite of a safety. However, if you then walk over to your table and are questioned on it and I hear you say to them..... "I was knew I wasnt going to make it so I tried to hide it behind here" - safety marked. That is the part of paying attention.
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A 2 way shot is not a defense. Show me in the APA rule book where it ways that. It clearly states an attempt to pocket a ball. A 2 way shot is just that an attempt to pocket a ball. And if your paying attention a 100 inning table run is a table run in APA. If all 7 of your balls and the eight are pocketed on 1 turn. I thought that is what we were discussing was APA here.

And no 4's or 5's cannot pocket 7 balls and the eight on one turn at a rate of 2 per 10 racks. Show me that person and I'll tell you they're a sandbagger. I don't care how many innings there were. A 4 should pocket 2-3 balls per turn average and a 5 will be at about 3-5 balls per turn. Plus maybe a defense or 2 for getting themselves out of line.
 
And I already stated I'm a 7 that would rate myself at a high B low A level. I can and do break and run at a rate of about 2 out of 10 racks with APA or not. I normally play BCA rules while practicing or gambling. The reason it jumps to 1-2 per race to 5 is how APA defines a table run. Ask your league operator or any nationally accredited ref in your area. I have clarified many questions about rulings, defenses, or table runs.

Just because someone can do something that you can't doesn't mean it's impossible. And It's been posted before. The reason this website is taking a shit is this right here. I stated a truth but because you don't believe it you have jump in with a BS post.
 
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