APA Rating Question

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fast&loose designs

Chris Santana
Silver Member
A friend of mine came to me today asking if I could ask the pool community about how the APA determines ratings. Apparently he's been doing some investigating and is finding out many inconsistencies, especially this one about a league rep. I've hidden his name because he doesn't want to possibly be shot up to a level 99 for questioning the almighty.

Here is his question (in case you are viewing on mobile and can't see the attached image):

"How does the APA adjust skill level? Is it really just sending info thru and having a computer average it out? Some of the stats I see looks fishy. Looks like some players get favored and others get punished.

Player #1 - 58% win
5 win 3 lost .. Goes up from SL3 to 4

Player #2 -
Fall 2014-SL6 70% win
7 win 3 lost

Spring 2015-(drops to)SL5 75% win
9 win 3 lost

Summer 2015-SL5 86%
7 win 1 lost
(Stays at SL5)

How the ---- player #2 drops down with a 70%+ win!?!

And guess which player is an APA rep?

..Id really like to see some strong input on this. If it's happening occasionally, across the board, etc. Thanks.

This is Some bull----."

Thanks guys. Keep it clean!
 

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Really, again? Like this hasn't been posted 35000 times?

Long story short:

Either you like APA and it is the greatest thing in the world and nobody would ever sandbag or manipulate or act like a jackass or be rated incorrectly...

...or...

APA is the ruination of all of pool, Sodom and Gomorrah were tame in comparison to the BS that goes on in APA, everybody cheats and nobody is rated correctly.

Now nobody else needs to reply.
 
The full APA calculations are a trade secret, but I would guess if you manage your number of innings, misses and safes you can play the system pretty well. Just never call a safe, play crazy .05% chance shots, you miss, you get the benefit of a miss since you must be a low ranked player for missing so much. "Accidental" safes will also help with inning count, which counts for the ranking. Took me 5 innings to win, but of course my opponent just happened to be hooked every time I missed, oops what bad luck, sorry.

I just played in a tournament that a guy set up for APA players to teach them the rules the pros use, he said that he limited it to 4 and under since 5s were the range where you got the most sandbaggers, they can be a very good 5 and can play like a 6 or 7 too often. But since a 5 is an OK player, you can play well once in a while when you need to win, and no-one will think much of it, you were just "on" that night. So he said "no 5s" in that tournament to keep the cheaters out.

A 75% win at a rating should move you up even if you win every match hill hill.

You can be moved up at a lower win % if your wins were strong and your losses were close. If you won 4 games by a score of 4-1 an lost 3 by a score of 3-4, and had decent innings for each game, you could be moved up.
 
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Basically winning isn't the only component to skill level. The number of innings shot prob matters more than just winning. If the SL5 is winning every match but averaging 5 to 6 innings per rack, he is going to stay a 5. Is the SL 3 won their matches in 5 innings per rack and in the matches they lost there weren't a ton of innings then they will move up. They claim it's possible to have a 100% win percentage and not move up. My guess is that either the SL5 isn't marking defenses or is adding innings to their matches. Also is the SL5 shooting another night? There are people I've seen that have an 80% win percentage one night and then on another team lose almost all their matches.
 
ElCorazonFrio said:
Really, again? Like this hasn't been posted 35000 times?

Long story short:

Either you like APA and it is the greatest thing in the world and nobody would ever sandbag or manipulate or act like a jackass or be rated incorrectly...

...or...

APA is the ruination of all of pool, Sodom and Gomorrah were tame in comparison to the BS that goes on in APA, everybody cheats and nobody is rated correctly.

Now nobody else needs to reply.
Click to expand...

Take it easy bro, we are discussing pool, not thermonuclear war. Take it down a notch.
 
Best way to try to extrapolate would be to get a copy of the document that used to be on Chilling Effects. Ask around, I'm sure someone still does.
 
ElCorazonFrio said:
You are discussing a topic which has been asked and answered ad infinitum and generally starts arguments.

Use the search button.
Click to expand...

And you didn't have to click on it. If it doesn't interest you move on and don't be an ass to the people it does. This forum wasn't created for YOUR enjoyment only. Take a pill....
 
trob said:
And you didn't have to click on it. If it doesn't interest you move on and don't be an ass to the people it does. This forum wasn't created for YOUR enjoyment only. Take a pill....
Click to expand...

"Holy hell dude... Who cares. I'll call it what I like. Nit"

In case you don't recognize this, hypocrite, it is your response to another thread today.
 
ElCorazonFrio said:
You are discussing a topic which has been asked and answered ad infinitum and generally starts arguments.

Use the search button.
Click to expand...

Have you ever used a forum's search function. They're pretty much useless unless you want to scroll through 500 threads to find one remotely related to what you're looking for.

The OP asked a question with specific facts; it wasn't just an "APA sucks" post.
 
bdorman said:
Have you ever used a forum's search function. They're pretty much useless unless you want to scroll through 500 threads to find one remotely related to what you're looking for.

The OP asked a question with specific facts; it wasn't just an "APA sucks" post.
Click to expand...

Little tip for you: Put the following into 'google'

site:forums.azbilliards.com apa handicap

You are welcome.
 
hang-the-9 said:
The full APA calculations are a trade secret, but I would guess if you manage your number of innings, misses and safes you can play the system pretty well. Just never call a safe, play crazy .05% chance shots, you miss, you get the benefit of a miss since you must be a low ranked player for missing so much. "Accidental" safes will also help with inning count, which counts for the ranking. Took me 5 innings to win, but of course my opponent just happened to be hooked every time I missed, oops what bad luck, sorry.

I just played in a tournament that a guy set up for APA players to teach them the rules the pros use, he said that he limited it to 4 and under since 5s were the range where you got the most sandbaggers, they can be a very good 5 and can play like a 6 or 7 too often. But since a 5 is an OK player, you can play well once in a while when you need to win, and no-one will think much of it, you were just "on" that night. So he said "no 5s" in that tournament to keep the cheaters out.

A 75% win at a rating should move you up even if you win every match hill hill.

You can be moved up at a lower win % if your wins were strong and your losses were close. If you won 4 games by a score of 4-1 an lost 3 by a score of 3-4, and had decent innings for each game, you could be moved up.
Click to expand...

That is funny that you post about SL5 being the biggest sandbaggers. I went to Vegas for APA the last 2 years. 2 years ago as a SL5 and last year as an SL6. Didn't try this year as work got in the way of playing the qualifying tourney. But I went 2 and out in the 5 bracket and then finished 9th in the 6 bracket the next year. Yes I got better but not that much. I felt like I ran into monsters in the SL5 bracket. The 6's I played seemed like 4's to me and I know I wasn't playing master level by any means.

I recently moved up to an SL7 in 8ball and an 8 in 9ball. Now I need to figure out how to run out 50+% of the time. I only table run/break and run 2 out of 10 racks right now. I don't feel that's good enough to compete at nationals in the 7 bracket.
 
Back on subject though. It's petty easy to manipulate the system if you want. On teams I've played on in the past captains will tell players to just fire at any shot with no safeties in mind. Or play a 5 or a 6 against a 2 or a 3 to rack up innings to keep their rating down.

I personally try and always play my best I can for that day. I also try and help others with problems in their shooting mechanics or other reasons for them missing. I want everyone to enjoy the game as much as I do and be the best they possibly can. I enjoy teaching the game.
 
Gotboost95 said:
That is funny that you post about SL5 being the biggest sandbaggers. I went to Vegas for APA the last 2 years. 2 years ago as a SL5 and last year as an SL6. Didn't try this year as work got in the way of playing the qualifying tourney. But I went 2 and out in the 5 bracket and then finished 9th in the 6 bracket the next year. Yes I got better but not that much. I felt like I ran into monsters in the SL5 bracket. The 6's I played seemed like 4's to me and I know I wasn't playing master level by any means.

I recently moved up to an SL7 in 8ball and an 8 in 9ball. Now I need to figure out how to run out 50+% of the time. I only table run/break and run 2 out of 10 racks right now. I don't feel that's good enough to compete at nationals in the 7 bracket.
Click to expand...

2 out of 10 is low level pro speed. Are you making that up or can you really break and run 2 out of 10? Because that's actually incredibly high.
 
SkyscraperChris said:
2 out of 10 is low level pro speed. Are you making that up or can you really break and run 2 out of 10? Because that's actually incredibly high.
Click to expand...

Not on a 7' table it's not pro speed. Have you watched pros on BB 8ball? The table run/ break and run is about 8 out of 10. maybe even higher.

And for me on a BB yes 2 out of 10 8ball is about where I'm at. APA is a little more difficult then BCA in the fact you take what you make. So if you make a solid or 2 on the break and the rest are clustered up or you don't have a good opening shot on your object balls obviously brings down your percentage.

And I get at least 1 if not 2 table runs/break and runs a week for my APA league. Race to 5. Since last August I've only lost 1 APA 8 ball match in about 30 matches.
 
ElCorazonFrio said:
You are discussing a topic which has been asked and answered ad infinitum and generally starts arguments.

Use the search button.
Click to expand...

Always wonder why people like to say search a topic on a discussion forum. This isn't a question/answer site, it's a site for "discussing" pool. :eek:
 
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